164 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Actually Clans should be Miles better because TT game rules. And I don't consider it RP in the traditional sense. Space Marines Did not bring Dark Eldar equipment to the dance did they?

Utterly bizarre example... i don't remember Dark Eldar being OP compared to space marines..

And likewise, for taking rules verbatim from TT, see my signature. again, a terrible idea. Those rules were not made with a live action first person game in mind, at all.

[Warma]

I just don't get why people want for mechs to be worse and better and heavily unbalanced.

I would just want to play my pet mechs and would want them to be a reasonable option. Now, if I choose a Summoner, I'm gimping myself heavily and the end result is, that I simply won't choose it. There is no point to balancing like that.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

Actually Clans should be Miles better because TT game rules. And I don't consider it RP in the traditional sense. Space Marines Did not bring Dark Eldar equipment to the dance did they?

I know some specific organisations that actually did it. Oh wait, is that the inquisition knocking on my door?

Also what happens if you restrict specific chassis to specific factions? Those factions with the least appealing chassis will die off because everyone will rush the factions with the better mechs. Unlike in the BT Universe we are free to choose the faction and not bound to it by birth.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 04:26 AM, said:

Utterly bizarre example... i don't remember Dark Eldar being OP compared to space marines..

And likewise, for taking rules verbatim from TT, see my signature. again, a terrible idea. Those rules were not made with a live action first person game in mind, at all.

The Example is Certain equipment was used by certain factions. Eldar didn't field Space Marine Armor.

We are playing "A BattleTech Game" So the The Core rules is where we should start, and then modify them to fit a real time game. I am not arguing against things like double armor, though I don't see the need, We have 2.5 times the RoF of TT, and I don't complain. We have 2+ times LESS heat dispersion... I do complain about that!

[Murphy7]

The Summoner suffers more than a bit from how Jump Jets work now in MW:O versus before and certainly from TT.

MW:O has its own peculiarites of how people prefer their builds (less diverse weapon systems; many tons more ammo than would be conventional in TT; model geometry is an attractor (Shadowhawk vs Wolverine, it is better to have ballistics in that high shoulder mount).

If you are looking at the Clan mechs alone for interclan balance, you are in the same spot the Inner Sphere was with balance between mechs in closed beta, where it was often touted why should anyone not be in an Atlas that was so clearly superior and had the next nearest chassis outweight by 20 tons of armor and weaponry?

Some of the balance will come with more variety in mech choices. My hope for help in Clan mech diversity is the release of new omnipods for existing chassis, and while I will leave it to people more up on their Clan mechs to suggest if there are options ot significantly help the Summoner, I am sure there are options that could help change the perception of all the omni chassis.

Edited by Murphy7, 18 September 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Violent Nick]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

OP is absolutely right. Hellbringer and Summoner are basically just bad heavies compared to the chassis that get both endo and ferro. Allowing clan mechs to upgrade into endo+ferro is not going to create a balance problem, since the most optimized configurations already run this combo, and Mad Dog, Hellbringer and Summoner with endo+ferro are never going to be better than a Timber Wolf, so why not allow this?

I, for one, would immediately buy a Hellbringer package if endo+ferro were available. For now, I'm just sticking to the better clan mechs, which have both (Stormcrow and Timber Wolf). This is not good for balance and build diversity.

I would be okay with needing to de-omni omnimechs to achieve this, or some other quirk that would make the modified chassis' as restricted (or more so, in the case of a specific engine) than the IS mechs. (i.e. adding endo+ferro would lock in place the basic omnipods of that model or something of the order).

EXACTLY...

Why the hell would anyone in their right mind wish to buy sub-par, unlockable mechs when we now know that the clans got smashed to dust with all the nerfs?? To be fair, the Hellbringer and Man-O-War look like they might be good, but nowhere good enough for me to warrant getting them when I already have the Masakari pack and several mechs which are now scrap (Nova, Adder, Warhawk [not 100% made my mind up yet] - personally don't like the Direwolf anyway). Seriously thinking of selling half of the one's I've got and maybe get the Loki for C-bills... Mad Dog? - 'Meh!' Dog.

Now.. given that I am a reasonable person and like to be 'balanced' - given the nerfs to clans, I would be more than happy to grab some extra mechs for some hard earned £s but only if I know that I'll be allowed the freedom to tweak my builds. If not, I'm all IS + TW and SCR for now. The ability to swap engines and heatsinks out would be great, but that's not gonna happen so.... Ferro and Endo?? Please?

[Training Instructor]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:07 AM, said:

You take it because it is the specific Clan's preferred Heavy Mech.

If the novels and lore had been written after playing with the mechs in MWO, I think most of the clans would have a new favorite heavy, medium, and assault...and they'd all be the same three mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 04:30 AM, said:

I know some specific organisations that actually did it. Oh wait, is that the inquisition knocking on my door?

Also what happens if you restrict specific chassis to specific factions? Those factions with the least appealing chassis will die off because everyone will rush the factions with the better mechs. Unlike in the BT Universe we are free to choose the faction and not bound to it by birth.

In 30 Years of Play of TT, including meeting many players from around the world... Very few players were Capellan a few more were Free Worlders(and they had the most diverse mechlist). Players chose faction by "coolness" So in no order, Davion, Kurita, Steiner were the big 3 IS with Clan Jade Falcon, Wolf and Ghost Bear being Clan big three. And the Falcons Primary Mechs were not as good as Clan Wolf or Ghost Bear in my opinion.

Choosing a faction should influence what weapons of war you bring. I would be very disappointed by a war game that allowed US soldiers to bring AKs and T-55 Tanks to the dance.

[SaltBeef]

I disagree it is case by case surgery that is needed. Some would have better replay ability with a quirk while some need items unlocked ( fixed Heatsinks or JJ's) or modified ( endo upgrade ).

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 September 2014 - 04:41 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:31 AM, said:

The Example is Certain equipment was used by certain factions. Eldar didn't field Space Marine Armor.

We are playing "A BattleTech Game" So the The Core rules is where we should start, and then modify them to fit a real time game. I am not arguing against things like double armor, though I don't see the need, We have 2.5 times the RoF of TT, and I don't complain. We have 2+ times LESS heat dispersion... I do complain about that!

And that is all im suggesting - granting the option to clan mechs to install Endo and FF (which is purely a limitation imposed only by PGI for MWO, not TT or anything else) - in order that the currently underpowered clan chassis can actually be used by intelligent people that like winning (and thus don't intentionally gimp themselves by taking bad mechs for roleplay reasons)

It will make NO difference to the currently best chassis, since they have it already, and thus will not hurt IS/Clan balance

do you REALLY want to see every single clan heavy used in CW be a Timberwolf, and every single medium be a Stormcrow or Fenris?

Edit: as an aside, i think it would help TBR balance to hardlock the JJs into the S side torsos - want 4 missile ports? you have to have 4 JJs, even though they suck.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 18 September 2014 - 04:47 AM.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

Choosing a faction should influence what weapons of war you bring. I would be very disappointed by a war game that allowed US soldiers to bring AKs and T-55 Tanks to the dance.

Any of what you say does not excuse the imbalance between the clan mechs. Allowing the bad clan mechs to field endo+ferro would just make them usable. The Summoner still wouldn't match TW, but it wouldn't be so outrageously bad.

[Joseph Mallan]

Training Instructor, on 18 September 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

If the novels and lore had been written after playing with the mechs in MWO, I think most of the clans would have a new favorite heavy, medium, and assault...and they'd all be the same three mechs.

I don't think so, The Timber Wolf was more Preferred by Factions that were less concerned with mobility. Look at the Preference list. Falcons had a abundance of Jump capablility, Wolf not as much. Though not in our game at this time, Clan Goliath Scorpion ran more energy builds than "Inelegant" Missiles. Each faction was given a preferred fighting style and weapons for players to identify with. Its why I chose Steiner all those years ago, I like powerhouse fighting and Lyrans had a heavier mindset than Davion. The 80's Golden Boys.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:39 AM, said:

In 30 Years of Play of TT, including meeting many players from around the world... Very few players were Capellan a few more were Free Worlders(and they had the most diverse mechlist). Players chose faction by "coolness" So in no order, Davion, Kurita, Steiner were the big 3 IS with Clan Jade Falcon, Wolf and Ghost Bear being Clan big three. And the Falcons Primary Mechs were not as good as Clan Wolf or Ghost Bear in my opinion.

Choosing a faction should influence what weapons of war you bring. I would be very disappointed by a war game that allowed US soldiers to bring AKs and T-55 Tanks to the dance.

but in TT you have BV balancing this out, so when you have an inferior set of mechs to choose from you can field more. Here in MWO you are just in ONE mech and so you may want to try not being in the least efficient one. And this usually in PC agmes makes people choose a faction by its usability in the equipment it offers. When i field a single dwarf vs a single goblin in Warhammer The dwarf will win nearly all the time. But when i go for a real battle there will be nearly 2 or 3x the goblins facing my dwarfs and then i get a lot of troubles. But when creating a Value free 1 choice model of a regular non character miniature., I just go with a big bad Chosen one which is just like serveral times as strong as a goblin. And when you further start to create competitve content you need to make sure that within this content everything has its viable niche and role, otherwise its dead.

also, I can tell you, when the US soldiers would run out of their own stuff or be able to capture superior opponent technology, you would see them use it.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 04:51 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

SaltBeef, on 18 September 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

I disagree it is case by case surgery that is needed. Some would have better replay ability with a quirk while some need items unlocked ( fixed Heatsinks or JJ's) or modified ( endo upgrade ).

Omnis with "LOCKED" Items always made me twitchy. It didn't make sense. What Logic is used to bind up 10 tons and multiple crits on a vehicle hailed for its "flexibility"?

[Widowmaker1981]

i dont really understand the arguement here Joe - why are you against unlocking FF/Endo for clan chassis, given that it isnt even going against lore in any way, and would only help the underused clan mechs to be more represented?

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 04:47 AM, said:

but in TT you have BV balancing this out, so when you have an inferior set of mechs to choose from you can field more. Here in MWO you are just in ONE mech and so you may want to try not being in the least efficient one. And this usually in PC agmes makes people choose a faction by its usability in the equipment it offers. When i field a single dwarf vs a single goblin in Warhammer The dwarf will win nearly all the time. But when i go for a real battle there will be nearly 2 or 3x the goblins facing my dwarfs and then i get a lot of troubles. But when creating a Value free 1 choice model of a regular non character miniature., I just go with a big bad Chosen one which is just like serveral times as strong as a goblin. And when you further start to create competitve content you need to make sure that within this content everything has its viable niche and role, otherwise its dead.

And As I have said Before BV is/was So Gameable it was insane. Do you know how OP 10 Piranha are? BV 801! So for around 1,000BVP each you could have around a 1/P/1G in 10 Mechs able to run 151KpH... Fair? A 10 Piranha army won a 10K BV challenge. 2 years in a row.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

And As I have said Before BV is/was So Gameable it was insane. Do you know how OP 10 Piranha are? BV 801! So for around 1,000BVP each you could have around a 1/P/1G in 10 Mechs able to run 151KpH... Fair? A 10 Piranha army won a 10K BV challenge. 2 years in a row.

sure BV are not entirely all time correctly balanced, That is in nealry no TT the case. btu now imagine you would only have the option to choose one light, no matter what BV no matter what loadout. How many different lights would you see in a Tournament use by these players.? Or in a 1 on 1 medium, heavy or assault. You will mostlikely see everyone field nearly the same mechs. And then they rely on the dice to win. And TT still has the dice chance to make inferior chassis still able to shoot a head off by luck. But in MWO inferior chassis will always be inferior on the competitive level, because there are no dice and there are less differences between the pilot skills. because in your mech lab when deciding for any kind of chassis it is always a 1 on 1 competition ebtween all chassis in that weight class. And the only thing that may alter a decision is to bring a support mehc for the rest of your team. But a SMN will always be inferior to a TW. Or a Warhawk to a Direwolf. Because they don't differ enough in their role to make the choice hard.

[Murphy7]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

And As I have said Before BV is/was So Gameable it was insane. Do you know how OP 10 Piranha are? BV 801! So for around 1,000BVP each you could have around a 1/P/1G in 10 Mechs able to run 151KpH... Fair? A 10 Piranha army won a 10K BV challenge. 2 years in a row.

I was going to offer a similar story - in an early tournament governed solely by tonnage but scored by the BPV system, one player who fielded a mix of 3025/3050 IS mechs in their lance against most players who had all Clan technology caused one of the tournament participants to dissolve into volcanic nerd rage. Despite having killed two of the IS mechs to the one & damaged lost by the Clanner, the Clanner lost the contest because the IS player had taken over twice the BPV! Worse still, when the clan player lost the mech, he lost the match as there was not enough BPV on the table for him to "win".

The following year the tournament rounds were specified tech levels to prevent some of this from occuring again.


BPV can be good and useful, but it is far from panacea.

[Joseph Mallan]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 04:54 AM, said:

i dont really understand the arguement here Joe - why are you against unlocking FF/Endo for clan chassis, given that it isnt even going against lore in any way, and would only help the underused clan mechs to be more represented?

It is against the Lore AND the core rules. Clan Omnis do NOT have the ability to change Structure or Armor types. The factories build the base chassis one way and one way only. It is not only Canon it is game Mechanics. Why aren't Jedi allowed to use Blaster in SW:TOR or Smugglers a Light Saber? Is it Fair that Star Fleet cannot use Cloaking Technology but Klingons and Romulans can?

Somethings are the way they are BECAUSE that is how it is written. If the game was yours You could change what you want, but Its not, so you can only suggest your ideas, and players can agree or disagree as they see fit.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

But a SMN will always be inferior to a TW. Or a Warhawk to a Direwolf. Because they don't differ enough in their role to make the choice hard.

I totally disagree. This is only true if I play against myself. And even then, The Summoner or Warhawk will win some of the time.