164 replies to this topic

[Warma]

So, you are of the opinion, that diversity, balance and game mechanics are so much less important than what somebody wrote in the book in the 90's, that we must allow this to continue.

I simply do not agree.

BTW: All of the previous mech games, which respected the original building rules (MW2, MW3) have allowed also clan mechs to change internals.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

I totally disagree. This is only true if I play against myself. And even then, The Summoner or Warhawk will win some of the time.

And this simply means that you do not understand the meaning of inferior. Inferior things can win by chance, but it doesn't make them any less inferior.

Edited by Warma, 18 September 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Its not just a have vs. have not situation. endo is just a 50% weight savings on 10% of the mechs mass. we are talking 5 tons max. granted not trivial but thats also for a 100 tone mech. in that case your more likely to run out of space before tonnage.
I think the mechs your listing have hard point and artistic issues more then missing or having endo.

Nova prime is a great example you save what 2.5 tons when you have 12 tons in weapon that are safe to use only in small groups. one alpha and your effectively dead. not haveing on lighter mechs i can see as an issue. then your gona run out of tonnage before space. But taht brings up why does a 100 tone mech have the same volume capacity as a 20 ton mech. somethings off.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

So, you are of the opinion, that diversity, balance and game mechanics are so much less important than what somebody wrote in the book in the 90's, that we must allow this to continue.

I simply do not agree.

BTW: All of the previous mech games, which respected the original building rules (MW2, MW3) have allowed also clan mechs to change internals.



And this simply means that you do not understand the meaning of inferior. Inferior things can win by chance, but it doesn't make them any less inferior.

You know the adage, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"? When It's Dan Inosanto using the knife... The guy with the gun is out matched. The weapon doesn't matter in the hands of the right fighter there's no inferior weapons. Just bad tactics.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 September 2014 - 05:17 AM.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:15 AM, said:

You know the adage, "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"? When It's Dan Inosanto using the knife... The guy with the gun is out matched. The weapon doesn't matter in the hands of the right fighter there no inferior weapons. Just bad tactics.

That argument is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

No matter how you try to weasel yourself out of it will help. A good player is very likely lose to another good player, given the other has better equipment, and in a competition-oriented game, there will thus be no reason to choose inferior equipment.

I simply cannot understand what your overall motivation is. Why do you want the game to have bad and/or useless mechs? Is it fun for you, when people end up making bad purchases and doing bad decisions by taking bad mechs into a fight? I don't get it.

[Hoax415]

OP, you are correct but you come to the wrong conclusion.

The mechs without Endo are worse, without a doubt and anyone with a brain knows they must be. Ignore these posters who consistently deny reality for strange agendas or just because they are that stupid.

But at the same time those clan mechs without endo are the only mechs that are 1:1 balanced with IS same tonnage.

So giving the SMN and others Endo would make them much more viable and close to the amazing SCR and TBR (though still not as good because of the way weight class only 3/3/3/3 works).

But it would also just create more clan mechs that are too good. Which brings us back to why that PGI has been going with nerfs, they don't buff IS because TTK is already too low since we switched to 12v12 and added clan robots with better weapons.

It would be much simpler and better for IS v Clan balance and keeping TTK from getting any shorter to just give the TBR and SCR the Victor treatment with a pass through of negative quirks. That's the fastest path to balancing those mechs with their non-endo Clan counterparts and with IS tech of same tonnage.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 05:21 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Murphy7, on 18 September 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

I was going to offer a similar story - in an early tournament governed solely by tonnage but scored by the BPV system, one player who fielded a mix of 3025/3050 IS mechs in their lance against most players who had all Clan technology caused one of the tournament participants to dissolve into volcanic nerd rage. Despite having killed two of the IS mechs to the one & damaged lost by the Clanner, the Clanner lost the contest because the IS player had taken over twice the BPV! Worse still, when the clan player lost the mech, he lost the match as there was not enough BPV on the table for him to "win".

The following year the tournament rounds were specified tech levels to prevent some of this from occuring again.


BPV can be good and useful, but it is far from panacea.

another good expample whats no workin in MWO. you don't get rewareded if the inferior side loses 12:10. reward gets only the winner. If you would use these rules on that tournament, well then the Clanner would have won the match and by values. And everyone would use the clanners because there wouldn't be any point anymore to use IS mechs at all.

That is what initally caused clan nerfs. But clannerfs are not the way to go, and IS buffs neither. Every time someone queues up he is chosing a single mech and so balance needs to be done on single mechs. Not on a specific wepaon - only if it turns ou that specific wepaon is totally unbalanced at all. And imho range nerfs on CERlaser was ok. heatchanges maybe not, because heatchanges affected mechs way more differently than the range nerfs.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

I totally disagree. This is only true if I play against myself. And even then, The Summoner or Warhawk will win some of the time.

Wow, thats a perfect example. When you paly against yourself, you erase the skill difference betwene two pilots. And thats important to create balance. And yes maybe some times you win in a warhawk or a summoner. But this is exactly the issue, you wont win on a 50:50 or even 60:40 ratio. The ratio may be where= 80:20 or below. And that clearly states that something is either OP, UP, unbalanced, inferior superior. No matter what word you prefer to use, something is not right. And when its by base mechanics not right it will be even less working when pilot skills kick in.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:20 AM, said:

That argument is intellectually dishonest and you know it.

No matter how you try to weasel yourself out of it will help. A good player is very likely lose to another good player, given the other has better equipment, and in a competition-oriented game, there will thus be no reason to choose inferior equipment.

I simply cannot understand what your overall motivation is. Why do you want the game to have bad and/or useless mechs? Is it fun for you, when people end up making bad purchases and doing bad decisions by taking bad mechs into a fight? I don't get it.

Actually after watching Training films when I was in Criminal Justice courses... The argument is 100% valid. And Good is relative. My Motivation is I am here to play what is now a "BattleTech Game". In a BattleTech Game BattleTech rules are followed and or Modified by all the players involved. But a consensus must be reached. You want more flexibility for Omnis cause You want it! I don't want that rule removed because, I don't want it due to Canon. i don't like your reasons cause (to me) it's whiny gimme gimme. You don't like mine cause It's Etched in Stone. PGI will make the call and one of us will be disappointed. Until then we both get our say, and your inability to see my reasoning is irrelevant. Continue to plead your case, I will plead mine the DEVs will decide.

[Warma]

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

The mechs without Endo are worse, without a doubt and anyone with a brain knows they must be. Ignore these posters who consistently deny reality for strange agendas or just because they are that stupid.
...
It would be much simpler and better for IS v Clan balance and keeping TTK from getting any shorter to just give the TBR and SCR the Victor treatment with a pass through of negative quirks. That's the fastest path to balancing those mechs with their non-endo Clan counterparts and with IS tech of same tonnage.

I don't really care about the Clan-IS balance. The Clans were supposed to be better, but if that doesn't work within this game's design envelope, that's fine. However, the correct path is to nerf the weapons way back to IS levels, not to nerf specific mechs. Nerfing specific mechs has no future, as you will also have to nerf all future clan mechs when they get released, and it still won't make the mechs internally balanced against each other. Only having the same building options available for each of them will.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Wow, thats a perfect example. When you paly against yourself, you erase the skill difference betwene two pilots. And thats important to create balance. And yes maybe some times you win in a warhawk or a summoner. But this is exactly the issue, you wont win on a 50:50 or even 60:40 ratio. The ratio may be where= 80:20 or below. And that clearly states that something is either OP, UP, unbalanced, inferior superior. No matter what word you prefer to use, something is not right. And when its by base mechanics not right it will be even less working when pilot skills kick in.

You shouldn't win 50:50 Lily. The Summoner is at a 5 ton disadvantage and the Warhawk is 15 tons lighter. There is very little that can be done to ever overcome those differences and trying to is just silly.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

You want more flexibility for Omnis cause You want it! I don't want that rule removed because, I don't want it due to Canon. i don't like your reasons cause (to me) it's whiny gimme gimme. You don't like mine cause It's Etched in Stone. PGI will make the call and one of us will be disappointed. Until then we both get our say, and your inability to see my reasoning is irrelevant. Continue to plead your case, I will plead mine the DEVs will decide.

Except that I can point to a precedece set by all of the online multiplayer games, tabletop strategy games and sports in the history of mankind, where only the successful strategies ever end up getting used. My solution leaves the game with a better balance, more diversity and more options, while yours leads into a situation where a vast majority of the content of the game will fall into disuse. Moreover, we can already see the effects of this in the game we play at the moment, where TW and SC are by far the most used omnimechs because of this very reason.

In other words, I have a very strong case. You do not.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Actually the summoner can be made semi viable with just the option to remove some of the JJ's, given how useless they are currently it only needs one, and then the summoner could become a semi decent brawling mech.

The Nova got screwed over because of the ERML heat increase, before that it was actually fairly good, what they should have done was reduce IS ML heat instead.

Ofc given the limited chassis, if we had tonnage as the overriding decision as opposed to 3,3,3,3 we would see more combinations.

Edited by DV McKenna, 18 September 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[Warma]

DV McKenna, on 18 September 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

Ofc given the limited chassis, if we had tonnage as the overriding decision as opposed to 3,3,3,3 we would see more combinations.

The problem is, that the chassis with both endo and ferro are also more effective per ton, so tonnage matchmaking would not save the bad mechs. In ton-limited competitive drops, lots of different IS mechs get used precisely because their efficency per ton is within the same build envelope.

Edited by Warma, 18 September 2014 - 05:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Except that I can point to a precedece set by all of the online multiplayer games, tabletop strategy games and sports in the history of mankind, where only the successful strategies ever end up getting used. My solution leaves the game with a better balance, more diversity and more options, while yours leads into a situation where a vast majority of the content of the game will fall into disuse. Moreover, we can already see the effects of this in the game we play at the moment, where TW and SC are by far the most used omnimechs because of this very reason.

In other words, I have a very strong case. You do not.

So then I guess I need to have Jenners/Firestarters nerfed into the ground, cause I rarely win against them in my Atlas. Its unfair that they can move that fast. It's unbalanced and needs fixed. That Is the extent of your argument. You don't like the rule, you want it removed. It is more selfish than my position of, it's the rules, made by the game maker, we have to live with it.

[Karl Streiger]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Except that I can point to a precedece set by all of the online multiplayer games, tabletop strategy games and sports in the history of mankind, where only the successful strategies ever end up getting used. My solution leaves the game with a better balance, more diversity and more options, while yours leads into a situation where a vast majority of the content of the game will fall into disuse. Moreover, we can already see the effects of this in the game we play at the moment, where TW and SC are by far the most used omnimechs because of this very reason.

In other words, I have a very strong case. You do not.

So you think to make ES and FF available for all ClanMechs will be a good idea - maybe its as good as the idea that 10 Clan vs 12 FIS Mechs is a good idea.

The Summoner will get some benefit - but still the T-Wolf will remain better. The Warhawk will lose its FF for ES - for energy builds or FF and ES for non energy builds - you get not much more diversitiy only more power creep.

Better hope for increased perks n flaws for all Mechs

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:32 AM, said:

You shouldn't win 50:50 Lily. The Summoner is at a 5 ton disadvantage and the Warhawk is 15 tons lighter. There is very little that can be done to ever overcome those differences and trying to is just silly.

which makes him 10% better and so a quote ass aid of like 60:40 would also be OK, but the difference is epically away from each other, and why?
becaue TW is not 5tons above the Summoner, it is 5t + ES + FF above the summoner. And this he can put into Weapon tonnage. and so from weapon tonnage comparison the % get even further sway form each other + TW has more armor. And thats why you suddenly end up in a superbad 80:20 quote or even less.
And why? the summoner has no advantage over the TW. While within IS, mechs differ in agility speed and such. But TW is a straight upgrade to the Summoner but not only for 5 tons, not only for 10%. And tahst whats called unbalanced.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

So then I guess I need to have Jenners/Firestarters nerfed into the ground, cause I rarely win against them in my Atlas. Its unfair that they can move that fast. It's unbalanced and needs fixed. That Is the extent of your argument. You don't like the rule, you want it removed. It is more selfish than my position of, it's the rules, made by the game maker, we have to live with it.

You loadout is imbalanced. When Jenners and firestarters cross my 2xLBx10 and 3 SRM6 atlas they are swiss cheese in no time.
And you still do not understand anything about how balancing works. Because your TT works different and has different balancing points. If MWO would have tonnage balance and 3/3/3/3 MAYBE then we would have soem balance but thats not the case, because of TW havign ES + FF and being 5t more, so the efficiency per tonnage is even bigger. IS mechs have way better balance by efficiency/tonnage because they can choose freely. They mostlikely have imbalance by limited Hardpoints.

And why are you so rule strict with the clanmechs nto getting ES and FF, while IS mechs can be totally customised, which is very much the TT lore right?

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

So then I guess I need to have Jenners/Firestarters nerfed into the ground, cause I rarely win against them in my Atlas. Its unfair that they can move that fast. It's unbalanced and needs fixed. That Is the extent of your argument. You don't like the rule, you want it removed. It is more selfish than my position of, it's the rules, made by the game maker, we have to live with it.

Absolutely not. You just described role warfare, which is why the lights have a place in this game. They are good in a given role with their given tonnage, because they can be optimized for that role. The Clan mechs without endo and ferro are not better than the superior chassis in any role, so they have absolutely no place in the whole game.

[Warma]

Karl Streiger, on 18 September 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

The Summoner will get some benefit - but still the T-Wolf will remain better. The Warhawk will lose its FF for ES - for energy builds or FF and ES for non energy builds - you get not much more diversitiy only more power creep.

Then nerf the clan weapons to the ground. It is a better choice than only having a few good mechs.

Other than that, I don't really get what you are saying. At the present, clan weapons have to be balanced against the correctly build chassises anyway. They are nerfed if they are too good in Timber Wolf, not because they are too good in a Summoner. The bad mechs will just end up shafted, because they don't have the weapons to balance their lack of free tons, and the monotonousness what I and the OP described will only be more visible.

Edited by Warma, 18 September 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:47 AM, said:

Other than that, I don't really get what you are saying. At the present, clan weapons have to be balanced agaisnst the correctly build chassises anyway. They are nerfed if they are too good in Timber Wolf, not because it's too good in a Summoner. Then the bad chassis will just end up shafted, because it doesn't have the weapons to balance its lack of free tons, and the monotonousness what I and the OP described will only be more visible.

Sry the heat build up was critical.

What i did want to say - on one hand you may say more equipment and more options means that you have more diversity.

But you don't.
Lets play arround:
For example the Warhawk - currently with FF and 20 fixed DHS.
I can run it with AMS, 4 ER-PPCs and 27 DHS currently - with unlocked FF and ES you can first make the optimum with the placement of those slots resulting in enough room for a 28th heatsink.
Or you can remove FF and mount 4 ER-Large Laser and have 33 DHS

Or you think its better to run a ballistic version - so you add ES - and got the ability to mount heavy weapons. Of course you are limited because of the "fixed" number of heatsinks.

And so after a while people start complaining about the fixed heatsinks - until they are removed - and this goes on and on - to create ultimative min maxed power creep Mechs.
(Just an Example - its possible not in MWO but in TT - to create a 90t Dire Wolf - that is faster - with the same fire power.

No Sir - if you have problems with the T-Wolf in direct comparison with the Thor or later that the Lokis is better as the Thor (even without ES or FF) - you realize that fixed JJs are an problem.
Leave it as it is - and ask for faster turn rates - better accelerations, a speed tweak perk or other things that could not be mounted in the MechLab

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

Absolutely not. You just described role warfare, which is why the lights have a place in this game. They are good in a given role with their given tonnage, because they can be optimized for that role. The Clan mechs without endo and ferro are not better than the superior chassis in any role, so they have absolutely no place in the whole game.

There Given role by role warfare is not Brawling, it is most often Scout/ Harrasser. A Jenner 1 on 1 Should not beat a Atlas, It is inferior to it In all ways except speed. Why would anyone want to drive an Atlas when the Jenner is so superior. Again this is your argument.

Switching from Standard to Endo would give a Summoner 3.5 more tons. Putting Endo on a Timber wolf would give it 31 Tons of weapons to work with and the Summoner only 26, The summoner is still at a disadvantage. By a whole ERPPC.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 September 2014 - 06:00 AM.

[Carrie Harder]

If Badders got something like increased energy weapon damage or better heat efficiency, I would be so happy.