164 replies to this topic

[Warma]

Karl Streiger, on 18 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

Lets play arround:
And so after a while people start complaining about the fixed heatsinks - until they are removed - and this goes on and on - to create ultimative min maxed power creep Mechs.
(Just an Example - its possible not in MWO but in TT - to create a 90t Dire Wolf - that is faster - with the same fire power.

Yeah, you can. However, you forget, that we already have the min-maxed ultimate power creep available in the form of TW and the Stormcrow. In that sense, what are you going to do when Cauldron Born or Blood Asp get released? They are much better built mechs without disadvantages.

Your model has no answer to those chassises.

Karl Streiger, on 18 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

No Sir - if you have problems with the T-Wolf in direct comparison with the Thor or later that the Lokis is better as the Thor (even without ES or FF) - you realize that fixed JJs are an problem.
Leave it as it is - and ask for faster turn rates - better accelerations, a speed tweak perk or other things that could not be mounted in the MechLab

The TW direct comparison is valid, because it actually is the mech that will get used and which people will use instead of the Summoner. Even if you disallow removal of jumpjets in Summoner or disallow removal of heatsinks in the Warhawk, but allow internal change, there will exists a build - a role - where the given mech with its given components would then be a good choice or the best choice. As of now, the Summoner is never a good choice and you need truly massive quirks to change that.

[Hoax415]

Jesus this thread.

You want to ignore things that cannot be ignored:

1) TTK

2) Clan vs IS balance: (the summoner vs the phract may be the best example of balanced like for like btwn factions we have so far).

3) 3/3/3/3 weight class team building and its massive flaws

Stop that.

You start with a 100% factual premise: No Endo no FF is going to make for a less powerful mech than one with Endo and FF unless the mech in question actually loses flexibility thanks to limited crit slots.

Thanks to Clan equipment being much more crit slot efficient and weight efficient a clan mech with Endo + FF gains a larger increase in power than an IS mech does going from standard/standard to Endo or Endo+FF.

In fact its a rare IS build that can deal with both upgrades and both upgrades plus XL is even more niche thanks to space considerations.

All of that is true. Its verifiable by anyone with eyes and a brain.

Then you draw some crazy conclusion that you can't and have not backed up, even in your pissing match with Mallan, who comes to the correct conclusion (don't make clan upgrades optional) but for 100% bad reasoning. TT lore cannot trump fun and balance in this video game.

Your new grasping at straws conclusion is that moving the SMN power level by giving it endo closer to the TBR and then nerfing clan weapon systems again to compensate is the right move. A better move than a pass through of negative chassis tweaks on the 3 remaining clan problem chassis.

1. Every nerf to clan weapons hurts mechs that don't need to be hurt (Clan lights for instance).

2. Another nerf to clan weapons interacts with a ton of interlocking systems. While hurting the TBR specifically with negative tweaks like was done to the Highlander or Victor does not. That makes weapon changes across the board more work and more likely to screw up unintended things.

3. Nerfing weapons again is much more damaging to player enjoyment than making the TBR a slightly less no brainer best mech in the game. We shouldn't even be aiming to make it NOT the best mech in the game. Hear me out. Some mech has to be the best. Its a 75 ton, very well designed clan mech that has crazy hardpoints and a crazy jump step animation for dodging. Its fine if that is the best mech for its tonnage. But it can be toned down and still be the best, which means its probably still too good.

4. The problem MWO continues to have is that by design these mechs are not meant to all be balanced with eachother. THE ENTIRE TONNAGE SYSTEM PREVENTS BALANCE. Basically to balance every mech within a weight class you would need to by design give all 80 ton assaults 20 tons worth of positive tweaks, all 25 ton mechs need 10 tons worth of positive tweaks, 40 ton mechs +15 in tweaks and so on. That's stupid and if that's how balance was going to be it should have been done that way from the start. Lets stop that right now and face the fact that our current matchmaking or teambuilding system whatever we're calling it is a huge part of our problem.

3/3/3/3 blind to all but weight class aka 35/55/75/100 is bad. Its bad for team composition variety. Its bad for giving all chassis a place in the game. It stifles gameplay, the more you are playing to win the more it stifles.

If we fix that we go a long way toward making a 60 or 65 ton clan heavy or a 40 ton clan medium usable. Even if they don't have endo.

Fixing the broken 35/55/75/100 system also helps all those 50 ton mediums we used to love, gives things like the Cicada an actual place in the game hopefully. Boosts the Awesome, which is quite good but for the fact that it isn't 100 tons and has hitboxes like a giant walking mattress.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 06:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Yeah, you can. However, you forget, that we already have the min-maxed ultimate power creep available in the form of TW and the Stormcrow. In that sense, what are you going to do when Cauldron Born or Blood Asp get released? They are much better built mechs without disadvantages.

Your model has no answer to those chassises.

I will rub my hands together and quiver in anticipation of another "superior" Opponent I get to learn how to defeat! What will you do?

[Karl Streiger]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

Your model has no answer to those chassises.

• 60° Torso Yaw on the Cauldron Born vs maybe 120° Torso Yaw on the Thor and 80° on the Timber Wolf
  
• 60°/s twist for the Cauldron 70°/s for the Thor 50°/s for the Wolf
  
• 35° /s twist speed for the Blood Asp vs 50° /s for the Warhawk
  
• 7.5% reload speed rather than 5% for the Thor Prime arms
  
• reduced reload speed for the T-Wolf Missile and Ballistic weapons (S Torso, B arms)
  
• increase cool down speed for the Thor

There are ways to make them better - without removing any restrictions

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

There Given role by role warfare is not Brawling, it is most often Scout/ Harrasser. A Jenner 1 on 1 Should not beat a Atlas, It is inferior to it In all ways except speed. Why would anyone want to drive an Atlas when the Jenner is so superior. Again this is your argument.

You cannot wriggle out of this with a straw man argument. I have not said that and you know why. You know that the Atlas is a valid mech as well as I do. There are roles in the game, where its massive weapons payload combined with massive amounts of armor allow it to crush heavy and medium mechs, even if it will be too slow to beat a Jenner. It is worth taking into a fight and respectable in the field.

The Summoner is not.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Switching from Standard to Endo would give a Summoner 3.5 more tons. Putting Endo on a Timber wolf would give it 31 Tons of weapons to work with and the Summoner only 26, The summoner is still at a disadvantage. By a whole ERPPC.

As for your specific example, a Summoner with Endo+Ferro will be a whole ERPPC behind the TW, but it will be 1.5 tons AHEAD of a Timber Wolf with the same speed and same amount of jump jets and heat sinks. In other words, it would be better than a TW which actually wants to play the same role that the Summoner was designed for. In this scenario, the Summoner we both more effective and more effective per ton as a jumping heavy, while at present, it is both less effective and less effective per ton as a jumping heavy. In your scenario, the Summoner does not perform its intended role as well as another mech, but in my scenario, it does.

Yes, the role is limited, but it would exist.

[Lily from animove]

Karl Streiger, on 18 September 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

No Sir - if you have problems with the T-Wolf in direct comparison with the Thor or later that the Lokis is better as the Thor (even without ES or FF) - you realize that fixed JJs are an problem.
Leave it as it is - and ask for faster turn rates - better accelerations, a speed tweak perk or other things that could not be mounted in the MechLab

but those quriks will not help the Summoner to outclass the Timberwolf at all. Those are second priotity abilities who not make a vital difference at heavies that already can turn that fast as TBR or Summoner.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 05:43 AM, said:

which makes him 10% better and so a quote ass aid of like 60:40 would also be OK, but the difference is epically away from each other, and why?
becaue TW is not 5tons above the Summoner, it is 5t + ES + FF above the summoner. And this he can put into Weapon tonnage. and so from weapon tonnage comparison the % get even further sway form each other + TW has more armor. And thats why you suddenly end up in a superbad 80:20 quote or even less.
And why? the summoner has no advantage over the TW. While within IS, mechs differ in agility speed and such. But TW is a straight upgrade to the Summoner but not only for 5 tons, not only for 10%. And tahst whats called unbalanced.





You loadout is imbalanced. When Jenners and firestarters cross my 2xLBx10 and 3 SRM6 atlas they are swiss cheese in no time.
And you still do not understand anything about how balancing works. Because your TT works different and has different balancing points. If MWO would have tonnage balance and 3/3/3/3 MAYBE then we would have soem balance but thats not the case, because of TW havign ES + FF and being 5t more, so the efficiency per tonnage is even bigger. IS mechs have way better balance by efficiency/tonnage because they can choose freely. They mostlikely have imbalance by limited Hardpoints.

And why are you so rule strict with the clanmechs nto getting ES and FF, while IS mechs can be totally customised, which is very much the TT lore right?

Because There are versions of Inner Sphere Mechs that do have Endo, Ferro or both added. It is canon, It is allowed in the core rules. That PGI does not apply a random chance of "Glitches" occuring, is not my problem. If someone (Say You for instance) suggested such a thing. I would gladly support the idea. It has a place in the core rules and in Canon. What is being suggested for Omnis defies those rules and Canon. It is not BattleTech. I don't remember ever changing the Clan Structure or Armor in other MW titles... Unless the the Mech was secondline.

[Karl Streiger]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

but those quriks will not help the Summoner to outclass the Timberwolf at all. Those are second priotity abilities who not make a vital difference at heavies that already can turn that fast as TBR or Summoner.

It was a while - but i can remember a brawl with my YLW vs the a Hunch 4G (before there was a turn rate buff for the CN9).... he was able to turn slightly faster - and i was not able to get him in my sight - so it was necessary to use Assault Mech "tactics" to turn - giving him a free shot into my rear.

Yes perks and flaws are subtle - in 99% of all cases you hardly will see a difference - but good pilots may know about their advantages and the other disadvantage so Thor Pilots will engage TWs at knife distance - trying to out dance the TW (if they will different turn and twist ranges)
And the perks are also intersting - 5% or 10% difference for weapons that recharge in 4sec isn't much - but in an head on it means you are able to land the "final" blow a split second before your foe is able to fire -not much but again in 1% of all cases its the difference between a YAHOO effect and death

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 September 2014 - 06:25 AM.

[Warma]

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

(a lot of stuff, of which the balancing that disregards tonnage is actually sensible)

Your whole post can be dismissed by noting, that I do in fact talk about competitive mechs and mech effectiveness per ton. Mechs do not need to be equal to each other in a weight class, but they do need to be approximately as effective per ton as each other to be valid.

As I said earlier.

Why claim things that I haven't said and which everyone know to be bad choices and then state that my argument is bad because of that. This is unfair and will not help me understand your point of view.

Your point about the matchmaker is very good. However, I do not understand how allowing the bad mechs to have endo would do imbalance the 3/3/3/3 match maker we have now. It would only make it less imbalanced. The existence of lax IS mech building rules is the very reason why IS mechs can be closer to each other's power level within a weight class and why a wide selection of chassis do get used. The 3/3/3/3 matchmaker might not be there forever, but if the mechs are not fixed, they will still be bad in any matchmaker we will have in the future.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

You cannot wriggle out of this with a straw man argument. I have not said that and you know why. You know that the Atlas is a valid mech as well as I do. There are roles in the game, where its massive weapons payload combined with massive amounts of armor allow it to crush heavy and medium mechs, even if it will be too slow to beat a Jenner. It is worth taking into a fight and respectable in the field.

The Summoner is not.

Then I would hazard a guess you are not meant to be a Summoner Pilot. Like I am not meant to be a Jenner Pilot or a Quickdraw pilot.

Quote

As for your specific example, a Summoner with Endo+Ferro will be a whole ERPPC behind the TW, but it will be 1.5 tons AHEAD of a Timber Wolf with the same speed and same amount of jump jets and heat sinks. In other words, it would be better than a TW which actually wants to play the same role that the Summoner was designed for. In this scenario, the Summoner we both more effective and more effective per ton as a jumping heavy, while at present, it is both less effective and less effective per ton as a jumping heavy. In your scenario, the Summoner does not perform its intended role as well as another mech, but in my scenario, it does.


Yes, the role is limited, but it would exist.

Sorry but still not superior. the Timber Wolf still has more armor and the extra SRM2 or 1 Medium+1 small is not enough to be superior.

What you want is something that the devs have decided they don't want. Its a Parent/Child, Boss/Employee relationship. Their game, their decision.

So long as it is their game what you and I want to see DOES NOT MATTER much at all. You threaten to leave if they don't do as you say(You haven't I understand) You can go. and there will likely be someone from the pool of over 7 billion perspective customers to fill your spot.

What's a few hundred or even a thousand players compared to possible Billions?

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Because There are versions of Inner Sphere Mechs that do have Endo, Ferro or both added. It is canon, It is allowed in the core rules. That PGI does not apply a random chance of "Glitches" occuring, is not my problem. If someone (Say You for instance) suggested such a thing. I would gladly support the idea. It has a place in the core rules and in Canon. What is being suggested for Omnis defies those rules and Canon. It is not BattleTech. I don't remember ever changing the Clan Structure or Armor in other MW titles... Unless the the Mech was secondline.

so when a rule is broken in your favor, you don't have issues and say not your problem. And when its the other way around its fine? now that is the previous called egoism you spoke about.

Karl Streiger, on 18 September 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

It was a while - but i can remember a brawl with my YLW vs the a Hunch 4G (before there was a turn rate buff for the CN9).... he was able to turn slightly faster - and i was not able to get him in my sight - so it was necessary to use Assault Mech "tactics" to turn - giving him a free shot into my rear.

Yes perks and flaws are subtle - in 99% of all cases you hardly will see a difference - but good pilots may know about their advantages and the other disadvantage so Thor Pilots will engage TWs at knife distance - trying to out dance the TW (if they will different turn and twist ranges)
And the perks are also intersting - 5% or 10% difference for weapons that recharge in 4sec isn't much - but in an head on it means you are able to land the "final" blow a split second before your foe is able to fire -not much but again in 1% of all cases its the difference between a YAHOO effect and death

Should be tested and can work, but then those quirks have to be very drastic to make a true difference.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

Because There are versions of Inner Sphere Mechs that do have Endo, Ferro or both added. It is canon, It is allowed in the core rules. That PGI does not apply a random chance of "Glitches" occuring, is not my problem. If someone (Say You for instance) suggested such a thing. I would gladly support the idea. It has a place in the core rules and in Canon. What is being suggested for Omnis defies those rules and Canon. It is not BattleTech. I don't remember ever changing the Clan Structure or Armor in other MW titles... Unless the the Mech was secondline.

MW1 allowed for a change in armor for the Marauder. MW2 and MW3 allowed for change of armor and structure for any chassis. MW4 allowed for change of engine size, even in clan mechs.

At the other side of the coin, none Dragon variants, for example, field endo. Those do not exist. Should it be, that they cannot field endo in this game?

Your argument is quite leaky.

[Hoax415]

Warma,

I listed 4 things. We agree on one (35/55/75/100 sucks) and you just ignored the other three somehow.

How would giving SMN endo not make SMN too strong compared to IS mechs considering its basically on par with them now and we all know endo would make it stronger?

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

I don't really care about the Clan-IS balance. The Clans were supposed to be better, but if that doesn't work within this game's design envelope, that's fine.

The fact that you even say I don't care about Clan - IS balance calls the value of any of your opinions on this matter into question.

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 05:31 AM, said:

However, the correct path is to nerf the weapons way back to IS levels, not to nerf specific mechs. Nerfing specific mechs has no future, as you will also have to nerf all future clan mechs when they get released, and it still won't make the mechs internally balanced against each other. Only having the same building options available for each of them will.

I've addressed why that is a poor path to take quite clearly and directly I feel.

I appreciate that you are, by this forum's standards, being quite reasonable and I'm glad we can agree that 35/55/75/100 sucks and is bad for mech variety especially if people are caring about winning.

That said I'd like to see you explain how giving the SMN endo and then nerfing all clan mechs until their weapons are the same as IS is a better plan then going after the remaining 2-3 major problem clan chassis directly, leaving SMN without endo and fixing 35/55/75/100 so that there is more reason to consider using all tonnage value mechs.

Here was my argument against making clan upgrades optional, which means we need to nerf clan weapons again to balance them with IS:

Quote

1. Every nerf to clan weapons hurts mechs that don't need to be hurt (Clan lights for instance).

2. Another nerf to clan weapons interacts with a ton of interlocking systems. While hurting the TBR specifically with negative tweaks like was done to the Highlander or Victor does not. That makes weapon changes across the board more work and more likely to screw up unintended things.

3. Nerfing weapons again is much more damaging to player enjoyment than making the TBR a slightly less no brainer best mech in the game. We shouldn't even be aiming to make it NOT the best mech in the game. Hear me out. Some mech has to be the best. Its a 75 ton, very well designed clan mech that has crazy hardpoints and a crazy jump step animation for dodging. Its fine if that is the best mech for its tonnage. But it can be toned down and still be the best, which means its probably still too good.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Then I would hazard a guess you are not meant to be a Summoner Pilot. Like I am not meant to be a Jenner Pilot or a Quickdraw pilot.



Sorry but still not superior. the Timber Wolf still has more armor and the extra SRM2 or 1 Medium+1 small is not enough to be superior.

What you want is something that the devs have decided they don't want. Its a Parent/Child, Boss/Employee relationship. Their game, their decision.

So long as it is their game what you and I want to see DOES NOT MATTER much at all. You threaten to leave if they don't do as you say(You haven't I understand) You can go. and there will likely be someone from the pool of over 7 billion perspective customers to fill your spot.

What's a few hundred or even a thousand players compared to possible Billions?

wow horrible skills over here.

No one: yes summoner will still be inferior, but this is now a much lesser degree and may not make it so big that someoen ays: I better use a TW and sacrifice my mobility with JJ's for the Thor.

No 2: It's not their game, at all, its the gamers game, without gamers a game is dead. Statisfying the customers is the way how you stay alive in Online game buisness. they are not a pwoer plant or water company that you HAVE to use.
And even further, every mehc they have is a product, and as a company you want to sell products. But who wants to buy a broken old car when you can get a new better one for justa few bucks more? No one except some enthusiastic lovers would want the old one. And this is where you could save yourself as a company the effort to ever invent a old broken car. because you already concepted and released it as "old and broken" together with "new and shiny". this makes no sense. And in a game like MWO, you may possibly want to sell BOTH products to your customers. Because then you can make more money. But this would require your customers to want both cars. But for some mechs this is not the case, because ther eis no reason except entuisastic collection reasons to get them.

You are doing balance and bussines very bad when you would follow your own logic.

and more "Mechwarrior logic" in MW 3 I can freely config anything in my mech, on any mechs, Engines, FF, ES, BAP ECM yadda blah blah. That actually was MECHWARRIOR. But ok, it was a Singlepalyer Title. So hardly anything to rely balance on. But in said title, lower tonnage mechs were always similar efficent per tonnage by this nature of consturction rules.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 06:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

MW1 allowed for a change in armor for the Marauder. MW2 and MW3 allowed for change of armor and structure for any chassis. MW4 allowed for change of engine size, even in clan mechs.

At the other side of the coin, none Dragon variants, for example, field endo. Those do not exist. Should it be, that they cannot field endo in this game?

Your argument is quite leaky.

The Marauder is Secondline, and I will have to defer to your memory as I honestly do not remember. It could be I didn't cause It wasn't meant to be done.

As for the Dragon... Again core rules has tables for having those mods made. That we do not have factories to make the mods in this demo is neither here nor there. The point is, Mods to the Dragon's structure was allowed, in the advanced rules, one could even mix Ferro, Standard and Hardened Armors on the same chassis and Omnis could not. It is the rules. The Devs have so far said it has to be that way. That is enough for me. If they change their position. I will humph, I will poke em with a stick, and I will continue to play the game.

[Warma]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

What you want is something that the devs have decided they don't want. Its a Parent/Child, Boss/Employee relationship. Their game, their decision. So long as it is their game what you and I want to see DOES NOT MATTER much at all. You threaten to leave if they don't do as you say(You haven't I understand) You can go. and there will likely be someone from the pool of over 7 billion perspective customers to fill your spot.

So now your argument boils down to the fact, that since I disagree with the devs, my reasoning is incorrect, and that I should(?) have a temper tantrum and leave because I am incorrect and my argument won't be heard anyway.

Nice job.

Anyway, I would be willing to bet, that the situation will not be permanent. The majority of the players won't stand for this kind of design and imbalance, and something has to be done at some point. Endo+Ferro would be the easiest and most stable solution, and I believe that the devs will do that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 06:41 AM, said:

wow horrible skills over here.

No one: yes summoner will still be inferior, but this is now a much lesser degree and may not make it so big that someoen ays: I better use a TW and sacrifice my mobility with JJ's for the Thor.

No 2: It's not their game, at all, its the gamers game, without gamers a game is dead. Statisfying the customers is the way how you stay alive in Online game buisness. they are not a pwoer plant or water company that you HAVE to use.
And even further, every mehc they have is a product, and as a company you want to sell products. But who wants to buy a broken old car when you can get a new better one for justa few bucks more? No one except some enthusiastic lovers would want the old one. And this is where you could save yourself as a company the effort to ever invent a old broken car. because you already concepted and released it as "old and broken" together with "new and shiny". this makes no sense. And in a game like MWO, you may possibly want to sell BOTH products to your customers. Because then you can make more money. But this would require your customers to want both cars. But for some mechs this is not the case, because ther eis no reason except entuisastic collection reasons to get them.

You are doing balance and bussines very bad when you would follow your own logic.

1) Someone will always make that decision, Cause it is one I would instantly make.

2) That logic works both ways. If the DEVs become frustrated trying to satisfy ever cry out, they pull the plug and You have no MW to play. They however can then focus their resources into Transverse and move on.

Yes every company want to sell its product, How often does Coke advertise Mello Yellow or these other products? do they try to get you to buy Mello Yellow as much as Coke or do they beat you over the head with COKE IS IT! Is their business model faulty? Or is it better to promote the cash cow more? I rarely see Mustang commercials but often see Fusion and F-150 commercials? why is that?

I think my perspective is pretty spot on.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 September 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Warma, on 18 September 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

So now your argument boils down to the fact, that since I disagree with the devs, my reasoning is incorrect, and that I should(?) have a temper tantrum and leave because I am incorrect and my argument won't be heard anyway.

Nice job.

Anyway, I would be willing to bet, that the situation will not be permanent. The majority of the players won't stand for this kind of design and imbalance, and something has to be done at some point. Endo+Ferro would be the easiest and most stable solution, and I believe that the devs will do that.

No my position, is you should continue to pitch your position while I pitch mine and let the Devs decide which position THEY think is better. I have not once told you to quit arguing, and you will likely never see me post that! I disagree with your suggestion. It is not personal and will never be.

[Lily from animove]

Hoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

Warma,

I listed 4 things. We agree on one (35/55/75/100 sucks) and you just ignored the other three somehow.

How would giving SMN endo not make SMN too strong compared to IS mechs considering its basically on par with them now and we all know endo would make it stronger?



The fact that you even say I don't care about Clan - IS balance calls the value of any of your opinions on this matter into question.



I've addressed why that is a poor path to take quite clearly and directly I feel.

I appreciate that you are, by this forum's standards, being quite reasonable and I'm glad we can agree that 35/55/75/100 sucks and is bad for mech variety especially if people are caring about winning.

That said I'd like to see you explain how giving the SMN endo and then nerfing all clan mechs is a better plan then going after the remaining 2-3 major problem clan chassis directly, leaving SMN without endo and fixing 35/55/75/100 so that there is more reason to consider using all tonnage value mechs.

Here was my argument against making clan upgrades optional, which means we need to nerf clan weapons again to balance them with IS:

thats kinda untrue. When Es and FF would make the SMN less inferior in comparison to the TW, but still not as good as the TW, it will make people use SMN more and so automatically reduce TW population. And this balances also some stuff on the Clanside. But now when CLanners to 90% only field their most (over)powerful mechs there will never be a balance between clanners and even less between clanners and IS.

none if the below 55t mediums when granted FF + ES will reach out to the SC, and so, this won't increase imbalance between IS and clan any further, because all competitive clanners already use SC.

none of the below 75t heavies when granted FF + ES will reach out the TW. and so the same as above counts.

So what negative impact would FF + ES on these mechs have? actually non. All it may cause is someone dropping a TW for Summoner or a SC for a Nova. because he favors these chassis and is willing to sactifice that now only slight disadvantage. And this would create a bit moe IS vs Clan balance by not every clanner using top tonnage ES + FF upgarded mechs.

and when we fear a ES DW will mount 4 Gauss, simply but 3 of the 7 Es Structure upgrades into the Sidetorsi. This will heavily limit the ballistic slot usage within the torsi. or fill 3 in one of the torsi, allowing 3 Gauss max. And put the rest into Feet and CT. Since. FF and ES crits are also bound on the Clanmechs you cna by occupying the right slots balance too strong builds. and No direwolf will ever use ES + FF because even with clan weaponary he won't have enough slots anymore to put in the real evil guns

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 06:53 AM, said:

1) Someone will always make that decision, Cause it is one I would instantly make.

2) That logic works both ways. If the DEVs become frustrated trying to satisfy ever cry out, they pull the plug and You have no MW to play. They however can then focus their resources into Transverse and move on.

Yes every company want to sell its product, How often does Coke advertise Mello Yellow or these other products? do they try to get you to buy Mello Yellow as much as Coke or do they beat you over the head with COKE IS IT! Is their business model faulty? Or is it better to promote the cash cow more? I rarely see Mustang commercials but often see Fusion and F-150 commercials? why is that?

I think my perspective is pretty spot on.

No your perspective is faulty, because you move in the wrong market segment.

Fanta for example is quite a commond rink over here in germany, and when you go into a bigger supermakte having many kind of different companies offering their drinks. They don't need to advertise fanta a lot, because there are not many Orange lemonades on the market at all. but when you step into the cola segment, there are like 15+ or even 20+. So they do of course have to make Advertising for it to stick out of the market. Same goes for your Ford mustang. Ford mustang is not a Car in competition to many others, unlike the Ford Fusion which is one of many other family cars. Thats why you need to advertise it more to make the wide mass not lose the focus on it.
Cola market is a competitive market between different companies, which does not rely on a Online game like MWO, because in MWO PGI is monopolist.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[GDFan]

Joseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

It is against the Lore AND the core rules.

Lore and core rules have been thrown to the wayside a long time ago.
It is an antiquated notion and limits the fun for players.
take off the rose colored glasses.