Jump to content

Clan Endo/ff Locking


164 replies to this topic

#81 Violent Nick

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Covert
  • 335 posts
  • LocationUK

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:00 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 04:04 AM, said:

And yet I see many Novas, Kit Fox, and Summoners with a few Warhawks. In 3050 including the upcoming booster pack, This is all the verity Clans had. They are a very Spartan society so they were written to be practical. That expantions were added was only due to Players not being as Spartan. Even then Clanners got 2-3 New Omnis per weight division, and the Spheres got 5-6 or more!


To be honest, you may see me in some of the crappy mechs I described (Nova, Summoner, Adder etc...). Why? Well.. Double XP for first win. Then they get dropped for the rest of the day.

Simples..

#82 Ghogiel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • CS 2021 Gold Champ
  • 6,852 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:02 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 18 September 2014 - 02:21 AM, said:

There is a MAJOR issue with the balance between different clan mechs (not talking about IS/Clan balance here), and that is basically that clan chassis viability is almost entirely determined by endo steel - the chassis that have it are good, the ones that do not are bad (cases in point the nova and summoner are terrible compared to the stormcrow and timberwolf - the Dire Wolf is an exception to this, as it is 100 tons and has a tiny engine, so has a craptop of tonnage to play with. it would be obscene with endo steel as well).

Clan mechs either need to have the option to enable/disable endo steel (and maybe FF, but its less important), or the chassis without endo steel need to have large positive quirks to make them competetive.

If the option to add endo steel was available, i would probablty be upgrading my DW/TBW/WHK A La Carte purchase to a Masakari pack and buying the Man-O-War pack to get the Mad Dog. as it stands i will absolutely not be doing that (i might be getting the Man-O-War pack regardless as i want the King Crab, even though the Man-O-War will also be bad and ill probably sell it) - the Mad Dog does not have endo steel, so it will be bad, why would i want a bad mech?.. shame, because i quite like the design of it...

Locked FF/Endo create a situation where some clan mechs are just bad from the get go, and can never be good (in comparison to the ones that get lucky on the sarna lottery), and that should be fixed in my opinion, however that fix is done (positive quirks for chassis that don't have it, negative quirks for ones that do, or unlocking endo/FF seem the only options)


tl;dr

"if the other clan mechs were as good OP as the TBR I would totally P2Clam"

#83 Hoax415

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:09 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

[While] Es and FF would make the SMN less inferior in comparison to the TW, but still not as good as the TW, it will make people use SMN more and so automatically reduce TW population. And this balances also some stuff on the Clanside. But now when CLanners to 90% only field their most (over)powerful mechs there will never be a balance between clanners and even less between clanners and IS.


Stop right there. Balance between Clan and IS is not something so meaningless that we count on maybe Clanners will use a less powerful mech because they feel like and that would make balance better.

Nope. That is horrid reasoning and not balance. It also ignores what I've stated time and again.

The SMN is one of our best examples of IS to Clan same tonnage balance. The SMN is not under-powered vs 70 tons of IS. Its not overpowered vs IS. Its close enough that we could call it a day and feel good.

And yet there is a reason you never see clanners saying: we should take Endo + FF from all clan mechs and not let them use it. That would be the fastest solution to this right?

Quote

none if the below 55t mediums when granted FF + ES will reach out to the SC, and so, this won't increase imbalance between IS and clan any further, because all competitive clanners already use SC.

none of the below 75t heavies when granted FF + ES will reach out the TW. and so the same as above counts.

So what negative impact would FF + ES on these mechs have? actually non. All it may cause is someone dropping a TW for Summoner or a SC for a Nova. because he favors these chassis and is willing to sactifice that now only slight disadvantage. And this would create a bit moe IS vs Clan balance by not every clanner using top tonnage ES + FF upgarded mechs.


Right now the situation could be described as being something like:

TBR >>>> SMN = IS 70t

SCR >> IS 55t > NVA = IS 50t

Does that illustrate my point better? We don't need to buff the SMN or the NVA. They are pretty much where we want them.

Why isn't anyone crying about the Cicada which is much less powerful compared to the Shadow Hawk than the Nova compared to the Stormscrow.

Because that would be stupid.

We have a 35/55/75/100 problem.

We have a clan mechs with Endo + FF are still too good compared to everything else problem.

We don't have a clan mechs w/out Endo + FF are too weak problem.

#84 GDFan

    Member

  • PipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 24 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:19 AM

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Does that illustrate my point better? We don't need to buff the SMN or the NVA. They are pretty much where we want them.


I guess you like having sucky mechs in the game because they make easier prey for ya?

#85 Hoax415

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:21 AM

Are you saying the Cataphract sucks or are you claiming the Cataphract is massively superior to the Summoner?

Are you saying that the Cent/Treb/Hunch suck or are you claiming that they are massive superior to the Nova?

Oh oh wait i know, you are like so many other people in these threads you don't care about Clan vs IS balance right? Somehow you conveniently ignore it and just focus on how the lesser clan mechs aren't as good as the clan mechs that are overpowered compared to IS.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 07:23 AM.


#86 Warma

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • LocationFinland

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:23 AM

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

That said I'd like to see you explain how giving the SMN endo and then nerfing all clan mechs is a better plan then going after the remaining 2-3 major problem clan chassis directly, leaving SMN without endo and fixing 35/55/75/100 so that there is more reason to consider using all tonnage value mechs.


I already told you.

Going after the problem chassis won't help the chassis that are bad. At all. Even if the TW is nerfed, the Summoner will still be useless, unless they nerf it so much, that the mechs are about equal strength per ton. This will require more drastic measures than I personally, or the community would be happy with. Taking drastic measures is not a good option, when any future properly-built omnimechs will also be forced to be nerfed heavily, until they are as bad as the worst omnimechs.

Nerfing everything is not a good solution. It will just leave everyone sour and unhappy. People want to drive good mechs, not bad ones. It is an infinitely better solution, that there is a large amount of good mechs, from which players can choose.

Then there are the Clan second line non-omnimechs. These would obviously follow IS mechbuilding rules, as they do not have the omni system, and would be able to fit all of the technology. If any of them get introduced, they will be forced to be nerfed with quirks extremely heavily to match omnimechs, which you can customize less.

In short, relaxing building rules and nerfing elsewhere is an infinitely better solution and MUCH MORE FUTURE-PROOF than just nerfing every good chassis as they get introduced.

Moreover, I also said that I do not really care about IS<->Clan balance. That is true, and there are several points to this.
Firstly, in a competitive enviroment and pre-arranged drops, the rules are already decided and for example the european league is restricted to IS mechs. The IS-Clan balance does not matter in this situation, as it is controlled for where it is most needed.
Secondly, clans being better is a large part of what makes them cool. I own mostly IS mechs, and regularly play against clans, and one of the cool things about the game is, that I realize the clan mechs are more dangerous. Thus, I have no problem with them having a higher powerlevel than my mechs. The solo and group drop queues are in no way balanced and the highest random element is contained within who spawns in your team, so the Clan-IS balance is not important FOR ME.
Thirdly, I understand that the Clan-IS balance is very important for some, because it feels like P2W. I can accept that. If that is the case, a better option is to make the queue 10vs12 clanvsIS or allow 1 IS heavy in the other side for each clan medium or something of the order. This would preserve the cool element of technological superiority, but would still allow non-clan players to win regularly. If 10vs12 is not enough, have 9vs12 and so on. The balance is found at some point.
Fourthly, if balance cannot be found that way, the remaining option is to bring the clan tech very close in powerlevel to IS tech. The best clan mechs will always exist, and thus, if the fact that they are more powerful than the IS is unacceptable, the only way to truly achieve balance is to balance the technologies in a way, where a properly built clan mech is equal in powerlevel to a properly built IS mech. In short, the clan mechs and clan tech does not need to be better than the IS. I would personally like them to be, but if the majority of players does not want that, then that's how it has to be.
Fifthly, balancing the technologies themselves is much better than balancing a couple of single outliers and leaving everything else lackluster.

I could also say, that nerfing the TW will rip the people who bought the TW from the value of their purchase, which will make them very angry, but I do not really think that way. Cost (either c-bills or dollars) is no way to balance a game and that is what I was arguing against when we still had R&R.

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 06:39 AM, said:

1. Every nerf to clan weapons hurts mechs that don't need to be hurt (Clan lights for instance).

2. Another nerf to clan weapons interacts with a ton of interlocking systems. While hurting the TBR specifically with negative tweaks like was done to the Highlander or Victor does not. That makes weapon changes across the board more work and more likely to screw up unintended things.

3. Nerfing weapons again is much more damaging to player enjoyment than making the TBR a slightly less no brainer best mech in the game. We shouldn't even be aiming to make it NOT the best mech in the game. Hear me out. Some mech has to be the best. Its a 75 ton, very well designed clan mech that has crazy hardpoints and a crazy jump step animation for dodging. Its fine if that is the best mech for its tonnage. But it can be toned down and still be the best, which means its probably still too good.


I will now answer to your specific points, even if I believe I already did.

1. You are right in the sense, that clan lights move slower than IS lights, and for that, suffer heavily. However, even with nerfed weapons, the Kit Fox, for example, would still have a role. It would be optimally built within its weight envelope and speed. If you ever actually wanted a Clan light with a lot of weapon space and moderate speed, you could take it. It is questionable that this would ever be the case, but it is certainly different from the situation we have now, where several mechs have no role at all.

Secondly, looking at the state of the game, the clan weapons will get nerfed further in the future. That is a given. They will be nerfed until the TW and SC are fair and that is that. That is where we are going at the moment. At that point, the Kit Fox will be ****, Adder will be ****, Nova will be **** and so on ad nauseam. The situation will be as we have now, but even more exaggerated, with even less reasons to have a Clan mech other than SC and TW.

An infinitely better option would be just to unlock the engine size for lights, but even if we can't have that, I'll take a slow light with a lot of weapons over a mech which I never want to pilot.

2. I've answered this above. Nerfing a single chassis won't work, as the game will have many others in the future. You need to nerf them so hard, that it's not funny, and to do it each time. The difference between a Summoner and a TW at the moment is so large, that this won't do as an option. When Cauldron Born comes out, its free space difference against a Hellbringer will be in the order of 6 tons or more, which is absolutely huge. The difference between a heavy and an assault.

The same can be said about the Gargoyle. It will be extremely undergunned compared to everything and won't have any role in the game when it will get released. It has less pod space and is slower than mechs that are barely more than half its weight. This just makes absolutely no sense and I doubt that you can buff the Gargoyle enough for it to become a sensible option. Even if you can, it will feel very strange and the build will be extremely dependent on stacking ERML or some other weapon, which is way above the balance curve at that given moment.

3. This argument is just blatantly wrong. No mech has to be the best mech in the game, and the IS lineup proves it. None of those mechs is even close to being above their competition and many can be used and selected for a variety of roles. The name for this is GOOD GAME DESIGN. I simply don't get why Clans cannot partake in it?

#87 Hoax415

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:31 AM

View PostWarma, on 18 September 2014 - 07:23 AM, said:

Going after the problem chassis won't help the chassis that are bad. At all. Even if the TW is nerfed, the Summoner will still be useless


You invalidate your own argument. So SMN buffs matter but TW nerfs dont matter. LOL. The SMN only seems bad because the TW is so good bro and you keep only comparing those two mechs in your head.

Lets perform a simple thought experiment: If the TW was not in the game. Would nobody use SMN? Try to honestly answer that for yourself. I'm not talking in Clan vs IS just simple solo queue. Is that how bad the SMN is?

Is it Dragon and Orion levels of unused bad? If its better than that..
Is it Catapult, Quickdraw or Thunderbolt levels of underused bad?

Just tell me. The TW doesn't exist which tier of IS heavy is the SMN as good as:
Tier 1: Jager, Phract
Tier 2: Orion, Catapult, Quickdraw, Tbolt
Tier 3: Dragon

Those aren't perfect but lets not get bogged down in details, this is an abstraction so we can speak to each other from the same basic understanding. Put the SMN on one of those tiers. Which of those sets of mechs best matches the SMN's power level?



***



How bad is the SMN if the TW doesn't exist to make it seem bad because you are only comparing your clan mech to another clan mech that happens to be insanely good and +5 tons and have endo and have FF.

You write a bunch of other stuff but lets just start here because everything else comes from this distorted view that ignores the power level of all the other heavies in the game except the TW in order to claim that the SMN is just so horrible that its not worth using.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 07:33 AM.


#88 Lily from animove

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Devoted
  • The Devoted
  • 13,891 posts
  • LocationOn a dropship to Terra

Posted 18 September 2014 - 07:42 AM

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:


Stop right there. Balance between Clan and IS is not something so meaningless that we count on maybe Clanners will use a less powerful mech because they feel like and that would make balance better.

Nope. That is horrid reasoning and not balance. It also ignores what I've stated time and again.

The SMN is one of our best examples of IS to Clan same tonnage balance. The SMN is not under-powered vs 70 tons of IS. Its not overpowered vs IS. Its close enough that we could call it a day and feel good.

And yet there is a reason you never see clanners saying: we should take Endo + FF from all clan mechs and not let them use it. That would be the fastest solution to this right?



Right now the situation could be described as being something like:

TBR >>>> SMN = IS 70t

SCR >> IS 55t > NVA = IS 50t

Does that illustrate my point better? We don't need to buff the SMN or the NVA. They are pretty much where we want them.

Why isn't anyone crying about the Cicada which is much less powerful compared to the Shadow Hawk than the Nova compared to the Stormscrow.

Because that would be stupid.

We have a 35/55/75/100 problem.

We have a clan mechs with Endo + FF are still too good compared to everything else problem.

We don't have a clan mechs w/out Endo + FF are too weak problem.


I don't think the CDA is that underpowered as described 6 ML @150kph, WOAH BABY tahts like an unhitable cool Nova build.

And no removing FF + ES will still not fix the balance, because DW is still not balanced. And it would of course require to redesing all clan FF + ES stockmechs wich suddenly have a invalid loadout. And it would further more ruin the already rare Adder. The issue is top tonnage mechs in their category with ES + FF. And the fact that MM will be 3/3/3/3. in such a setup choosing a non max tonnage mech is already not ideal, except is has some really speciality, which would be superior speed or ECM. and with FF + Es on top, its a no brainer decision to chose top tonnage mech with ES + FF. only a fool would not if he wwould go to some serious competition.

@hoax

If there would be no TW I would use my phract as my standard heavy over the SMn every day.

Edited by Lily from animove, 18 September 2014 - 07:53 AM.


#89 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:00 AM

View PostNick86, on 18 September 2014 - 07:00 AM, said:


To be honest, you may see me in some of the crappy mechs I described (Nova, Summoner, Adder etc...). Why? Well.. Double XP for first win. Then they get dropped for the rest of the day.

Simples..

Well are you driving the 2-3 Novas in the matchs with me? No? Ok I was worried you were twins! ;)

#90 Hoax415

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 645 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:07 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

If there would be no TW I would use my phract as my standard heavy over the SMn every day.


I think thats a perfectly valid choice. Do you think that choice would be universal in the way that TW > SMN is? Or would it be something that reasonable people could debate between which mech is stronger?

I too personally think the SMN is a little bit weaker than the CTF. Not terribly so but if I had to pick which is stronger.

But perfect balance isn't a real thing. As long as they are close we're in a good place.

***

Part two of the experiment is obvious:

Would you pilot your CTF over a SMN that could turn opt for Endo and FF?

If we are being honest you know damn well you wouldn't.

What if Clan customization included the HS, Endo, FF, Engine Size and jets as some have suggested it should?

Its not even close and it isn't something that should even come up in rational discussion.

Edited by Hoax415, 18 September 2014 - 08:12 AM.


#91 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:14 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 18 September 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:


so when a rule is broken in your favor, you don't have issues and say not your problem. And when its the other way around its fine? now that is the previous called egoism you spoke about.
I didn't bring up any argument against Endo/Ferro changes until someone got the ball rolling. If someone brought up an argument for a chance that IS mechs get glitches be put in the rules. I agree with the argument being leveled(Upgrade success rolls), I would support it. In fact As I have now brought up this idea up twice now, I would only be a hypocrite if I changed my position. I am neither being a Hypocrite or Egotistic. Wanting the rules changed cause you don't like them is egotistic. The Devs have so far said, "No changing structure." I am agreeing. If the Devs say, "Now changing Structure" I will grumble, but not insist it be changed cause, I don't like it.

You must never have been a GM/DM. I have over two decades running games, even being a Demo Rep for TT for a couple years. So when it comes to rules published by the game maker, I make my complains to them privately, I argue, I Huff, Puff and Blow the house up. But just like when I am GMing, When The higher ups say, "This Way" That's the way it is! If it was your game and your job on the line YOU get to make the rules, but so long as you are on this side of the upgrade, all you get to do is "Suggest". So again Keep "suggesting" change, I will keep "suggesting" Canon rules, PGI will decide, and one of us will be disappointed. 32 years of gaming experience teaches when to know your role! And right now, ours is players.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 18 September 2014 - 08:49 AM.


#92 Warma

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • LocationFinland

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:16 AM

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

You invalidate your own argument. So SMN buffs matter but TW nerfs dont matter. LOL. The SMN only seems bad because the TW is so good bro and you keep only comparing those two mechs in your head.


I do not think so. The TW is good, but so will a million other mechs in the future. Night Gyr, Cauldron Born, etc. You make the mistake of sticking in a singular comparison point, when the whole clan lineup is actually there. The Summoner is also bad compared to SC now, even ignoring the weight difference.

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

Lets perform a simple thought experiment: If the TW was not in the game. Would nobody use SMN? Try to honestly answer that for yourself. I'm not talking in Clan vs IS just simple solo queue. Is that how bad the SMN is?
Just tell me. The TW doesn't exist which tier of IS heavy is the SMN as good as:
Tier 1: Jager, Phract
Tier 2: Orion, Catapult, Quickdraw, Tbolt
Tier 3: Dragon
Those aren't perfect but lets not get bogged down in details, this is an abstraction so we can speak to each other from the same basic understanding. Put the SMN on one of those tiers. Which of those sets of mechs best matches the SMN's power level?


Summoner about the same amount of free space and options as a mech, that, given the same base equipment but with Endo, weights around 60 tons. So I'd say the Summoner is in the level of a hypothetical Clan 60 tonner. The DPS of long or short range weapons I can fit into it is about the same too, so I'd say we're about there. In other words, it's about ten tons overweight.

I actually like the Dragon, and I'd rank the summoner close to it. It's certainly much weaker than the Catahpract. Tier 2 might be right, but probably the IS mechs can be built in a way, where the summoner is left behind.

Let's analyze this a bit more. A config which maximally uses the Summoner's quirks and strenghts by utilizing the arms of the prime is here (this or with gauss): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...80908e74527d6ae

If you argue that we should stack ERML instead, I do not think that you are on the right track, as that is overpowered right now and will be nerfed soon. I feel, that this can be considered optimal for the purpose of the balance discussion. Now, let's look at IS mechs that fit similar builds (armor is not always distributed correctly here).

The firepower of the summoner is very close to this Dragon build, and the Dragon also matches its speed and range (I like this build and have been very successful with it):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8cba5ec8bdec4e1
The firepower and range is also very close to the classic 2xAC5+ERPPC build for the shadow hawk:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2cecfd986650d72
Another shadowhawk, which is weaker, but with added jumpjets (and this is suboptimal, you can do much better):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...009b363c2f5d862
More interestingly, this Shadow Hawk fits pretty much the exact same build in 55 tons, but without jumpjets:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2447a444186124b
This Catahpract, built for the same range, is considerably stronger than the summoner and approximately as fast (if you give up speed, you can add jumpjets):
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...de4546215aedd3c
I won't bother with Orion. It will steamroll a Summoner any day any time.
If you give up speed, you can go STD in the above builds. The Clan XLs will be nerfed very shortly. Probably not to to that level, though.

Regardless, the Summoner fits around as much firepower as a Tier 1 IS medium or a 60-tonner, given the same classes of weapons and speed. It is way behind a mech of its exact tonnage, which it shouldn't be competing against anyway, as the technology base is different.

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

How bad is the SMN if the TW doesn't exist to make it seem bad because you are only comparing your clan mech to another clan mech that happens to be insanely good and +5 tons and have endo and have FF.
You write a bunch of other stuff but lets just start here because everything else comes from this distorted view that ignores the power level of all the other heavies in the game except the TW in order to claim that the SMN is just so horrible that its not worth using.


If the Summoner had endo+ff, it would be about as good per ton as the TW and we would not need to have this discussion, regardless of whether it would be better than the IS mechs or not.

However, the bottom line is, that the Summoner does not need to be balanced against the IS mechs. It needs to be balanced against other Clan mechs. All of the clan mechs need to be balanced against each other, as the IS are now.

THEN if the people really want that the technologies are balanced, we can look at that. You seem to take for granted, that the clan technological superiority should be completely irrelevant and that it should not exist at all. I disagree, but can live with it, if it is removed. In any case, nerfing specific mechs in this case is not the right answer.

#93 Kain Demos

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,629 posts
  • LocationTerra

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:19 AM

The Summoner can't be that bad I see them ALL the time.

Hell I even killed 3 of them in the cave in 1 match in Forest Colony last night.

#94 xXBagheeraXx

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,707 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:19 AM

Nope. FF and endo locking are a nice balancing feature. in the lore this was a weakness for many chassis that was later fixed with upgraded models, Like the ThorII. Built specifically with the weakness of the original Thor in mind with removal of hardwired jumpjets AND endosteell. if you unlock FF and Endo you would open one hell of a pandora's box when it comes to clan mechs. Warhawks with Endo would be utterly evil. Dont even get me started on Dire Wolves. You would honestly have issues using up all the weight if that mech had endo steel, the amount of heavy weapons/sinks/ammo you could cram into that mech would be BEYOND broken. And they are already well armed to begin with.


Everyone seems to have it in thier head that the Thor is supposed to be well armed.

No model of the Thor packed a huge punch. What you see is what you get. She isnt a big gun mech. She never has been and wont be until the ThorII makes the scene. I cant really speak for the nova, but it seems like a very good little energy boat medium to me and ive had plenty of them rear torso core me before I could say HOLY REAR ARMOR DAMAGE BATMAN!!!

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 18 September 2014 - 08:22 AM.


#95 Warma

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 137 posts
  • LocationFinland

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:22 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

You must never have been a GM/DM. I have over two decades running games, even being a Demo Rep for TT for a couple years. So when it comes to rules published by the game maker, I make my complains to them privately, I argue, I Huff, Puff and Blow the house up. But just like when I am GMing, When The higher ups say, "This Way" That's the way it is! If it was your game and your job on the line YOU get to make the rules, but so long as you are on this side of the upgrade, all you get to do is "Suggest".


I do not understand, why any would put the rules of an RPG over their own enjoyement. I have around 10 years of experience in RPGs as both a player and a gamemaster. It is very common, that the offical rules are extremely imbalanced and allow stupid loopholes, creating enviroments, which are not fun to play.

In those cases, we change the rules, because the rules are not the word of god and we can always play as we wish. In practically all of the RPGs we play, we have house rules which deal with the most overpowered or ******** options left by the official rules.

#96 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:22 AM

View PostHoax415, on 18 September 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:


I think thats a perfectly valid choice. Do you think that choice would be universal in the way that TW > SMN is? Or would it be something that reasonable people could debate between which mech is stronger?

I too personally think the SMN is a little bit weaker than the CTF. Not terribly so but if I had to pick which is stronger.

But perfect balance isn't a real thing. As long as they are close we're in a good place.

***

Part two of the experiment is obvious:

Would you pilot your CTF over a SMN that could turn opt for Endo and FF?

If we are being honest you know damn well you wouldn't.

What if Clan customization included the HS, Endo, FF, Engine Size and jets as some have suggested it should?

Its not even close and it isn't something that should even come up in rational discussion.

Do you think a Phact is better with an engine of the same size and Jump jets? Or would the Summoner have the advantage with lighter weapons? I thing it is a interesting comparison?

#97 Kain Demos

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,629 posts
  • LocationTerra

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:23 AM

View PostxXBagheeraXx, on 18 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

Nope. FF and endo locking are a nice balancing feature. in the lore this was a weakness for many chassis that was later fixed with upgraded models, Like the ThorII. Built specifically with the weakness of the original Thor in mind with removal of hardwired jumpjets AND endosteell. if you unlock FF and Endo you would open one hell of a pandora's box when it comes to clan mechs. Warhawks with Endo would be utterly evil. Dont even get me started on Dire Wolves. You would honestly have issues using up all the weight if that mech had endo steel, the amount of heavy weapons/sinks/ammo you could cram into that mech would be BEYOND broken. And they are already well armed to begin with.


I know on the DWF-A I had a build I was messing with once with a C-UAC/20 in the left arm and 3 x CLPL in the right arm and then filled the torso's with ammo, heat sinks, TC, missiles, etc and I ran out of space at around 97 tons.

I think Endo Steel/FF would be a non issue with the Dire Wolf honestly (if it became upgradeable like IS mechs) because it would take away enough Pod Space to where you'd run out of room before weight.

#98 Joseph Mallan

    ForumWarrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 35,216 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationMallanhold, Furillo

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:25 AM

View PostKain Thul, on 18 September 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

The Summoner can't be that bad I see them ALL the time.

Hell I even killed 3 of them in the cave in 1 match in Forest Colony last night.

:huh:


:lol: ICwatUdidthur!

#99 xXBagheeraXx

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,707 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:41 AM

View PostKain Thul, on 18 September 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:


I know on the DWF-A I had a build I was messing with once with a C-UAC/20 in the left arm and 3 x CLPL in the right arm and then filled the torso's with ammo, heat sinks, TC, missiles, etc and I ran out of space at around 97 tons.

I think Endo Steel/FF would be a non issue with the Dire Wolf honestly (if it became upgradeable like IS mechs) because it would take away enough Pod Space to where you'd run out of room before weight.


yeah but still. In the edit i mentioned later models of most of these "problem" mechs resolving the issues of free weight for weaponry. Giving Summoners and the like endo steel would render mechs like the ThorII that will come later, and the Millions of different alternate versions of the Vulture etc irrelevant.

#100 TopDawg

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 270 posts

Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:42 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 September 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

It the same argument as 3025 Mechs needing something to make them Better when compared to 3050 Mechs. The early stuff is just not as good as the next gen. Clans have their drawbacks(Some bad construction choices, Heat) for the Perks(Better DpS lighter weapons). Its a matter of over all balance instead of individual balance.


Admittedly I didn't read through 5 pages yet, and it's very possible someone may have addressed this already (and if they did it this same exact way, then let me echo their words!).

But it's very pointless to have Mechs (and weapons, for that matter) in game that no one will ever use or take (or worse yet, are newbie traps). I know people love the lore (and it is really awesome!), but that sort of thing is just bad for balance and bad for gameplay/variety.

Not only is it 'not fun', it's simply a waste of development time that could be better spent somewhere else; introducing DOA Mechs just isn't a good use of limited resources. As for individual balancing, I'm sure others (including the OP) have weighed in with their more informed opinions on that matter.





13 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 13 guests, 0 anonymous users