81 replies to this topic

[Empyrus]

I've noticed many people think omnimechs are more customizable than regular battlemechs.
This is both true and not true. And i will explain why.
(Do note that some of what i say is speculation and logical conjecture, based on what we, err, i know, such as the inability to modify armor, ultimately the reason is "as the rules say, for balance reasons".)

A normal battlemech has everything fixed to the its chassis. Weapons, heat sinks, sensors, electronics, ammunition bins, whatever. Which is why there exist so many variants of a given battlemech. These variants are factory designed and produced, either as upgrades or for alternative uses.
A mech can be customized... But this requires time and expertise, and is often expensive to boot, and is rather rare in "reality" of the Battletech universe. Extensive customization requires often rebuilding the entire mech, and probably isn't cost effective, it is cheaper to find another mech/variant to do a job. Field refits are usually relatively simple, removing CASE panels to free weight for another upgrade, removing a single weapon and jury-rigging another in its place, and they certainly aren't pretty usually. And even they are not that common.
And there are limits to customization without extensive rebuilding, a visit to a factory (or a well equipped repair bay). Swapping an energy weapon to another that isn't too different (ie medium laser to a small laser) isn't probably a problem, but replacing it with entirely different weapon system (medium laser replaced with a LRM20)?
In theory one can rebuild an entire mech as something else but then it is no longer the original, is it?

The genius of the omnimechs is that they are almost completely modular. Most of their equipment is pod-mounted, basically each weapon is contained in a modular "pod" that can be then fitted to any omnimech (as the omniequipment is standardized, otherwise such modular concept would be self-defeating). These changes can be made fast, as long as equipment is available.
Basically, the designers need only to make one omnimech chassis, and the equipment can be added to it as the mission profile requires, even on the field, unlike with traditional battlemechs where a chassis may have many variants to fulfill various roles.
This means the omnimechs are very, very customizable compared to their predecessors.

Since the omnimechs can be modified so easily, lacking engine and internal structure options is not a problem. If a Clan needs a jump capable missile support mech but do not have pod-mounted jump jets available, they can transfer the missile pods from a Mad Dog to a Summoner. If the Mad Dog isn't fast enough for a job, its equipment can be used for a faster mech.

An analogy: Modifying a battlemech is like trying to replace an integrated graphics "card" on a motherboard, whereas omnimech equipment is like merely swapping the actual graphics card to another.

Omnimechs can be modified fully in theory but that would be turning an expensive machine to an even more expensive machine that is no longer truly modular with no real gain (the reasons for this seem to be rather nebulous in the canon). Even switching the armor isn't as simple, since the omnimech's armor must be designed to allow the equipment modules to be changed, and they integrate various other things, like com/data ports and power couplings for Elemental Battle Armors.

As for the fixed equipment in omnimechs, these are often criticized even in-universe, as they essentially go against the idea behind omnimechs. The reasons seem to range from cheaper and simplified construction, to simplified repairs, to intended purpose where it can still benefit from the easy of modifications (the Mist Lynx is a scout mech, pure and simple; and the Summoner is something of a heavy raider, and jump jets are very much recommend for such role), and other reasons.
These are not always sensible things but if you look at real world history and technology, there's a lot of idiocy going on (such as the early F4 Phantoms lacking an integral machine gun, which they ended up needing in Vietnam...). Not that this is an excuse in MWO not to balance weak mechs with quirks and extra hardpoints.

One must understand the principle behind the modular equipment, and understand it does not exist to allow people to make their own preferred configurations, rather these exist to allow armies to do their jobs more effectively as situations require.
Typically customized configs are limited to high ranking warriors, and various Clan Trials, on the field leaders assign configs to individual warriors.

This is, of course, where things become fussy in MWO. The omnimechs lack hardpoints to allow as extensive equipment modification as they should have, and the battlemechs lack customization money and time cost, leading to an odd impression the Battlemechs are more customizable, which isn't really true. Usually battlemechs are customized personal battlemechs for a reason or another, normal military mechs are rarely customized, rather armies send a suitable mech for a given mission.

And MWO does not really represent the fact some mechs, while on paper and on Battletech boardgame useful and effective, are in-universe actually old fashioned or obsolete (interestingly both the Kit Fox and Summoner are old omnimechs, rather outdated by the time the Clans started Operation Revival). Indeed later omnimech designs are better designed, such as the Summoner's successor Grand Summoner/Thor II (a 32nd century mech) which has endo-steel internals and no fixed jump jets, while being like its predecessor otherwise.

This does lead to balance issues in MWO. PGI has stated a Clan quirk pass will be done after the second IS quirk pass (no idea when this happens). Whether these will balance things... we shall see.
A problem i will mention here is the lack of Role Warfare, in my opinion. If it were there, the Mist Lynx would make a superb scout always, because its integral active probe, as it is, it is waste. I would recommend pushing for Role Warfare, instead of tweaking the mechs (it isn't like you could make the Mist Lynx an effective combat mech even with one extra ton, it is a tad too light for that, nor would the Summoner be truly good compared to the Timber Wolf even with extra tonnage).
I will also note that there are many battlemechs that are considerably less useful than other battlemechs, and this is even with the extensive customization. The Summoner is still relatively good mech due to its inherently better technology, unlike the (energy) Awesome which is somewhat lacking even with additional quirks (though both seem to do fine as missile boats).

I didn't make this thread to discuss balancing though, rather this exist to explain what omnimechs are, based on the lore and my knowledge.
And i do not mean that the customization should cost or take arbitrary amount of time. That wouldn't be nice, only frustrating.

So, any comments? Am i wrong somewhere (and if i'm directly contradicted by some technical readout or such, please say where, i'm very interested)?

[CycKath]

When the spectre of OmniMechs were raised back during closed beta/R&R days, people suggested things like delays in repairs/customisation that you either had to wait or pay-off and that OmniMechs of course would automatically avoid this because of their modular nature.

[terrycloth]

I don't see why Endosteel would be any harder to add to an Omnimech than to a Battlemech. In either case you 'really' have to buy an entirely new mech and trade your old one for it. I guess it's just that non-standard omnimechs don't exist, while BattleMechs have endosteel variants out there somewhere for every chassis?

[Pht]

Replacing the internal structure (skeleton) of any mech is obscenely time consuming and very, very, very, very involved. The skeleton of the 'mech is custom built for that mech - virtually all of the structures on a mech are mounted to it's skeleton. It's easier to swap out an entire fusion engine than it is to do the internal structure.

Armor type swaps are a bit more straight-forwards, but they an be very time consuming. MWO doesn't have to deal with capellan stealth armor, which IS a way more involved and ... IMO... an almost impossible swap without engineering expertiese and factory level facilities.

As for omnimechs - yes, they do have to give up something to be modular - their structures are customized such that mucking about with armor on them is (for what exact reason I do not know at the moment) all but impossible. That said, the non-modular structures on an omnimech are customizeable in the same way non-omnis are, which is to say, hard and requires engineering and time. That said, there are just some structures that can NOT *functionally* be made modular - the tradeoffs required to do this would simply be to vicious.

Omnimechs do fit into roles, but in a far looser way - they fit into roles based upon their movement profiles, armor levels, weight class, and available pod space/pod weight capacity.

Edited by Pht, 18 September 2014 - 04:29 PM.

[Empyrus]

terrycloth, on 18 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I don't see why Endosteel would be any harder to add to an Omnimech than to a Battlemech. In either case you 'really' have to buy an entirely new mech and trade your old one for it. I guess it's just that non-standard omnimechs don't exist, while BattleMechs have endosteel variants out there somewhere for every chassis?

I was going to answer this but i see Pht explained it better.

Anyway, some additional reading for everyone interested...
http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology talks about mechs technology. Recommended reading. Tech Manual has a longer, more extensive version of this if i recall correctly.

-----------------------------

EDIT I just remembered the omnimechs have special gyros that can adjust dynamically to weapon changes. Presumably this is wired to the internal structure in some way too.


EDIT2 i have to add a wish that would be extremely controversial: Limit endo-steel to the battlemechs that come with it (but given them negative quirks), and do not allow removal it (but don't fix the crits unlike with omnis), or adding it to mechs with standard internals. This would make ferro-fibrous more useful as it would be the only weight-saving measure available next to the XL engine. This would make sense based on canon, and it would make customization more difficult, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.

Edited by Empyrus, 18 September 2014 - 04:43 PM.

[Pht]

Empyrus, on 18 September 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

I was going to answer this but i see Pht explained it better.

Anyway, some additional reading for everyone interested...
http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology talks about mechs technology. Recommended reading. Tech Manual has a longer, more extensive version of this if i recall correctly.

You recall correctly.

I have not updated the sarna version of that essay in a while. I really need to get around to that. Here's the latest version: http://mwomercs.com/...y-an-education/

Quote

EDIT I just remembered the omnimechs have special gyros that can adjust dynamically to weapon changes. Presumably this is wired to the internal structure in some way too.

Got a source for this? I haven't seen this anywhere.

Quote

EDIT2 i have to add a wish that would be extremely controversial: Limit endo-steel to the battlemechs that come with it (but given them negative quirks), and do not allow removal it (but don't fix the crits unlike with omnis), or adding it to mechs with standard internals. This would make ferro-fibrous more useful as it would be the only weight-saving measure available next to the XL engine. This would make sense based on canon, and it would make customization more difficult, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.

It's not really controversial. This discussion has been had out on these forums since they came up... for instance : http://mwomercs.com/...4497#entry54497

I still don't understand why the expanding weapons ... whatever you want to call them ... were used... but there are more important fish to fry than the mechlab.

[Empyrus]

Pht, on 18 September 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Got a source for this? I haven't seen this anywhere.

I'm kind of basing this to the fact the omnimech gyros have to adapt to changing loadouts, unlike normal battlemech gyro (as for where i read this, i cannot recall. I swear it has been mentioned somewhere...). Now that i think of this, i'm not sure why it has anything to do with internal structure, arguably it would simply adjust if the internals are modified, no?
Of course it could be that the equipment pods inform the gyro about the changes, but that's pure speculation. Assume my claim was wrong.

[Pht]

Empyrus, on 18 September 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I'm kind of basing this to the fact the omnimech gyros have to adapt to changing loadouts, unlike normal battlemech gyro (as for where i read this, i cannot recall. I swear it has been mentioned somewhere...). Now that i think of this, i'm not sure why it has anything to do with internal structure, arguably it would simply adjust if the internals are modified, no?
Of course it could be that the equipment pods inform the gyro about the changes, but that's pure speculation. Assume my claim was wrong.

I wouldn't expect their physical structures to be different. I would *suspect* their programming is far more extensive and that they have to be able to account for what you've got mounted in a pod automatically.

I should work up enough interest to ask cray about this stuff...

[Psydotek]

Omnimechs don't have much of an advantage when you're playing a single match at a time.

Rather, their advantage is that they can easily change loadouts to suit a mission where non-Omnimechs are stuck with the same load out from mission to mission through the entirety of a campaign.

Gameplay wise, this should be represented by having to play a set of 3+ matches where you can't change loadouts between rounds unless you're driving an Omnimech (even then, you'd still be limited to preconfigured pods but that's still an advantage over being stuck with a high-heat loadout on Terra Therma). Maybe even add a bit of reload & repair to spice things up.

[Angel of Annihilation]

terrycloth, on 18 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I don't see why Endosteel would be any harder to add to an Omnimech than to a Battlemech. In either case you 'really' have to buy an entirely new mech and trade your old one for it. I guess it's just that non-standard omnimechs don't exist, while BattleMechs have endosteel variants out there somewhere for every chassis?

The thing about Structure is that you are really talking a ground up restoration. Honestly neither Clan nor IS mechs should be able to do this.

To try to put this in perspective, think about a car, now take each and every piece, nut, bolt, wire, clip, etc off that car until only the bare frame is exposed. This is the level of modification changing the structure of a mech requires and honestly should require a factory to preform (ie not be available as a customization option).

This is of course if you wanted to try to be even somewhat realistic about mech customization that is.

[Zyllos]

This is the reason why I think Battlemechs should have hardpoint sizes along with numbers.

It makes Battlemechs narrow in their ability to modify weapons and emphasizes the Omnipods that Omnimechs have.

This also allows mechs to be introduced that can already be made (Raven can make an exact Hollander).

Psydotek, on 18 September 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

Omnimechs don't have much of an advantage when you're playing a single match at a time.

Rather, their advantage is that they can easily change loadouts to suit a mission where non-Omnimechs are stuck with the same load out from mission to mission through the entirety of a campaign.

Gameplay wise, this should be represented by having to play a set of 3+ matches where you can't change loadouts between rounds unless you're driving an Omnimech (even then, you'd still be limited to preconfigured pods but that's still an advantage over being stuck with a high-heat loadout on Terra Therma). Maybe even add a bit of reload & repair to spice things up.

I would be absolutely down with this also.

Edited by Zyllos, 18 September 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[Koniving]

terrycloth, on 18 September 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

I don't see why Endosteel would be any harder to add to an Omnimech than to a Battlemech. In either case you 'really' have to buy an entirely new mech and trade your old one for it. I guess it's just that non-standard omnimechs don't exist, while BattleMechs have endosteel variants out there somewhere for every chassis?

For a Battlemech, you have to disassemble the entire mech and literally rebuild it on a completely new skeleton. You're essentially building a new mech. Technically this isn't even possible to do with a Battlemech without going to the main factory or a near-factory high end maintenance facility. The jump alone to bring the mech to the destination often costs around 3 million to 507 million cbills (depending on where you are and what factory you have to go to, the highest estimated cost was 507 million from the front lines against the Clans to a planet near Saint Ives to find a tangible Raven facility. Just to turn a Raven 3-L into a stealth armored Raven 3-L with endo steel. 507 FREAKING million cbills. Granted part of that was acquiring a new dropship with which to get up to the jumpship I had 'cause mine was destroyed by planetary defense systems. The rest was fuel, pay of the crews and such, maintenance of the mechs until then, lots of stuff. Then because it was experimental technology at the time line, it was even harder to get ahold of it.)

Not to mention 1 year just to get there before the 8+ months necessary to make it happen.

For an Omnimech, the Clans see absolutely no reason to do this without using a factory, which are in extremely limited supply (unlike the IS).
Far fewer people, far less planet space for it. You must EARN the right to use the factory for a real customization.

Hence Gold Khans.

Furthermore, Endo Steel is very difficult to repair compared to standard structure, requiring more than a month with the supplies where standard structure usually requires weeks.

Ferro is more cost effective, more bountiful, easier to temper and replace in storage, it's easier to replace on Omnimechs (and Battlemechs), it's simply 'better' when it boils down to it.

Foregoing any of that, a Hell Bringer's with Endo Steel would gain a whopping 3 tons. The expense of the mech would add about 700,000 cbills to the cost of the mech in addition to what the standard structure cost would have been. About 10,000 to 20,000 cbills added to the cost of basic repairs to minor damage of endo steel structure. (In MWO this would be about 100,000 cbills) This isn't even counting failures, which Endo Steel averaged about 3 times more frequent failures to standard structure, resulting in significantly more expensive repairs and the mech not being available when needed, like when your base is being destroyed by enemy forces.

Edited by Koniving, 18 September 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[SaltBeef]

http://www.sarna.net...vatar_(OmniMech)

ANY ONE!
Who has restored a car, airplane, or tank knows this is very time consuming, expensive, ( less so if you do the work yourself ) and technical requiring knowledge of the origional build production process. Swapping endo or visa versa would require an entire tear down and reassembly. IS mechs were very expensive and do to lost knowledge of the production process , hard to customize. OMNIMECHS have fixed components in the head and CT the IS figure this out when they build the Avatar mech. Problems from the med laser in the CT meant they were fixed equiptment. The Determined Is tech,s eventually figure out ways around the issues that the Clan felt were not major problems so did nothing to correct the fixed equiptmant issues.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 September 2014 - 08:20 PM.

[yalk]

Battlemechs : hard wired, soldered wiring, clamps etc etc. can be refitted but would be time consuming

Omnimechs : USB plug and play



Really to get the full flavor of omnimechs, current Battlemechs keep their customization option as is, But When the map is selected omnimechs would have the option to switch variants of the chosen mech

Ie. originally took the MadDog B strk boat but the map is Alpine, swap to pre-configured MadDog Prime variant for long range




This will never happen and is arguably unbalanced as **** but...there ya go, that's what really makes omni's special

Edited by yalk, 18 September 2014 - 08:34 PM.

[SaltBeef]

Clan defeats main force on the Planet during initial battle. Unfortunately deceptive inner sphere surats mounted a guerilla assault and destroyed our ammunition stockpile at dropship epsilon. Clans have nothing to fear our omnipods are energy weapon heavy.

Edited by SaltBeef, 18 September 2014 - 08:44 PM.

[Reitrix]

Empyrus, on 18 September 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

I was going to answer this but i see Pht explained it better.

Anyway, some additional reading for everyone interested...
http://www.sarna.net...Mech_Technology talks about mechs technology. Recommended reading. Tech Manual has a longer, more extensive version of this if i recall correctly.

-----------------------------

EDIT I just remembered the omnimechs have special gyros that can adjust dynamically to weapon changes. Presumably this is wired to the internal structure in some way too.


EDIT2 i have to add a wish that would be extremely controversial: Limit endo-steel to the battlemechs that come with it (but given them negative quirks), and do not allow removal it (but don't fix the crits unlike with omnis), or adding it to mechs with standard internals. This would make ferro-fibrous more useful as it would be the only weight-saving measure available next to the XL engine. This would make sense based on canon, and it would make customization more difficult, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.

Reading through that, at the myomer section, makes me wish that only top speed was affected by smaller engines.

[Stormwolf]

I think that many problems with customization were caused because past games had construction rules instead of customization rules in place. StratOps has a nice outline for this:

Quote

Class A Refit (Field): This kit allows players to replace one
weapon with another of the same category and with the same (or
fewer) critical spaces (including ammunition). For example, players
may replace a medium laser with a medium pulse laser or ER
medium laser, or replace an AC/10 with an LB 10-X AC, and so on.

Class B Refit (Field): This kit allows replacement of one category
of weapon with another class, but with the same or fewer
critical spaces (including ammunition); for example, replacing a
machine gun and ammo with a small pulse laser, replacing an
AC/10 with an ER large laser, and so on.

Class C Refit (Maintenance): This kit allows players to replace
one type of armor with another (all locations); for example, replacing
standard armor with ferro-fibrous. A Class C kit also enables
replacement of a weapon or item of equipment with any other,
even if it is larger than the item(s) being replaced; for example,
replacing an ER large laser with an LRM-10 launcher and ammunition.
Players may also change armor quantity and/or distribution,
move a component, or add ammunition or a heat sink.

Class D Refit (Maintenance): This kit permits players to install
a new item where previously there was none, or to install an ECM
suite, C3 system or targeting computer. Players may also change
heat sink types or engine ratings (but not the engine type). Finally, a
Class D kit allows players to replace a location with a custom part.

Class E Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change the type of
myomer installed, install CASE, and/or increase the unit’s Quality
Rating one level.

Class F Refit (Factory): This kit lets players change a unit’s
internal structure type (all locations), engine type, gyro type, or
cockpit type. If a fusion engine is replaced by another type of
power plant, i.e. Fission or ICE, then the total number of heat sinks
mounted should be adjusted as indicated on the bonus heat sink
table (see p. 71, TM).

[Empyrus]

That customization table is interesting but it does not really work for MWO.

Reitrix, on 18 September 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Reading through that, at the myomer section, makes me wish that only top speed was affected by smaller engines.

What do you mean? Torso/arm speed would be the same regardless of engine size? For what reason? To make smaller engines more worthwhile?

[Pht]

Reitrix, on 18 September 2014 - 08:48 PM, said:

Reading through that, at the myomer section, makes me wish that only top speed was affected by smaller engines.

Actually, top speed and acceleration rate would both be affected, for the same reason - if you haven't got enough energy to contract all of the myomers you won't accelerate as fast, and you won't be able to work against the resistances encountered at max speed.

In some ways it's analagous to latic acid buildup in muscle tissue - less overall energy output from the muscles/myomers.

[terrycloth]

There's no reason not to allow a full factory refit before each match because the matches aren't connected in time or space.

Letting people experiment in-game is a huge benefit and encourages people to think about their loadouts, instead of just copying the optimal build off the web because experimenting is time consuming or expensive.

It would make sense to lock the mechlab of people participating in CW until their match was over, maybe?