268 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:29 PM, said:

You're making no sense at all man, going straight into a brawl with one of the most powerful brawl builds using your all energy build is just silly. And also you have to consider that the UAC5s are very random in performance since they can be totally devastating or pretty frustrating depending on how much they end up jamming. Never ever has anyone claimed the Ilya is substandard in a brawl, rather it's the opposite. Well actually you're the first one that I've ever seen claim it's substandard, which should tell you how way off mark you are. After seeing your example of how you play the TW I'm hardly surprised that you have way lower KDR in it than what you could have.

You missed the point completely. My comment about the Ilya was complete sarcasm poking fun at all the claims the Timber Wolf is OPed. Hell my point is that the Timber Wolf got its arse handed to it by an Ilya but yet somehow the Timber Wolf is massively OPed while the Ilya apparently is not. Don't you see the irony of this?

The only thing OPed about the Timber Wolf is that unlike most other mechs, it can be built to suite the pilot almost perfectly and people seem to be jealous of that capability so cry, "NERF, NERF, NERF!!!". However that has nothing to do with how powerful the mech is in any given build. Obviously, my Dual ER PPC, Quad C-ER ML build isn't as good in brawling range as a Ilya with Triple UAC/5s and triple MLs, just like it wouldn't be as good against a long range sniper build if I was boating C-ER MLs and SRMs. Basically no matter what build you use with a Timber Wolf, there is always a counter but unlike many or even most other mechs, you aren't going to know what the counter is until you begin the fight. That doesn't make them OPed though.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

As I said in my previous post, seems like having fans only take you so far, since Summoners are way underrepresented compared to TWs. If the TW played like the Summoner and vice versa, you really expect the ratio to stay the same? Really?

No, definitely not. In every competitive game I've played, there are people who gravitate to the strongest gear.

I just think that a large amount of TW pilots loved the mech, long before it was known as the strongest mech in the game. I mean, we're still only talking about people who plunked down a chunk of cash for it. I'd bet the farm on far more than 50% of TW fans sticking with it, regardless of nerfs.

I should also give my opinion on the main nerf topic. I think it has a little too much agility, but it would be wrong to do any nerfs, before the XL nerf is in place. It would also be wrong to first nerf it as hard as the current Victor. There are already negative quirks on the 'S' torso pod, so maybe the first thing to try is to give all of the ST pods those nerfs, instead of just increasing the 'S' pods negative quirks alone.

Edited by Kevjack, 19 September 2014 - 02:08 PM.

[Torgun]

Viktor Drake, on 19 September 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

You missed the point completely. My comment about the Ilya was complete sarcasm poking fun at all the claims the Timber Wolf is OPed. Hell my point is that the Timber Wolf got its arse handed to it by an Ilya but yet somehow the Timber Wolf is massively OPed while the Ilya apparently is not. Don't you see the irony of this?

The only thing OPed about the Timber Wolf is that unlike most other mechs, it can be built to suite the pilot almost perfectly and people seem to be jealous of that capability so cry, "NERF, NERF, NERF!!!". However that has nothing to do with how powerful the mech is in any given build. Obviously, my Dual ER PPC, Quad C-ER ML build isn't as good in brawling range as a Ilya with Triple UAC/5s and triple MLs, just like it wouldn't be as good against a long range sniper build if I was boating C-ER MLs and SRMs. Basically no matter what build you use with a Timber Wolf, there is always a counter but unlike many or even most other mechs, you aren't going to know what the counter is until you begin the fight. That doesn't make them OPed though.

The funny part about your story is that you like many others have no concept of what OP means. It's like you think when someone points out something is OP, is has to be almost invincible, which is totally not the same thing at all. When something has a clear overall advantage over others, even when it's not totally overwhelmingly godmodely so, it is still OP. Even you must have heard of the messed up hitboxes of the TW where the back hitboxes are so small, you can safely shave off lots of it and just toss it into the front, giving you ability to tank a lot better than your weight. Add the speed, agility and heat management from all those DHS and you get a package that is too good compared to others, thus it being OP.

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 02:21 PM.

[Torgun]

Kevjack, on 19 September 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

No, definitely not. In every competitive game I've played, there are people who gravitate to the strongest gear.

I just think that a large amount of TW pilots loved the mech, long before it was known as the strongest mech in the game. I mean, we're still only talking about people who plunked down a chunk of cash for it. I'd bet the farm on far more than 50% of TW fans sticking with it, regardless of nerfs.

I should also give my opinion on the main nerf topic. I think it has a little too much agility, but it would be wrong to do any nerfs, before the XL nerf is in place. It would also be wrong to first nerf it as hard as the current Victor. There are already negative quirks on the 'S' torso pod, so maybe the first thing to try is to give all of the ST pods those nerfs, instead of just increasing the 'S' pods negative quirks alone.

No one is asking the devs to nerf TW into uselessness. But clearly something needs to be done, fixing the hitboxes should be one of the main things. But it does need to be made less powerful unless we want to see around 50% TWs in all matches in November.

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 02:24 PM.

[Hospy]

My only complaints about it is that it seems so very small for its weight and its somewhat wonky at times hitboxes.

[Koniving]

Just to throw in my two cents...

A Timber Wolf in and of itself? Doesn't need a nerf. We need that engine available to the IS.

It also needs some hitbox fixes. It's easy to kill unless the armor is allocated like this.
....in which case it's almost invincible. I mean you definitely will never get a shot in on its back in a one on one fight or even in a two on one fight.

Now, the average Victor has 14 armor on its rear torsos. That means considerably somewhere in the late 80s for front CT, 52s for STs.

In comparison, the Timber Wolf can get away with a lot more frontal armor. This is because the rear torso is almost impossible to touch.

That's a real problem. The hitbox is too exclusive, far too much "frontal" hitbox, not enough rear hitbox.

Comparing it because it can do the same loadout? Pfft. My goddamn Protector and the other Orions can mimic Atlas loadouts. My Thunderbolt can mimic an Atlas loadout or two. All of which are far faster than the Atlas. That doesn't mean any of them are overpowered.

That said... If you're NOT using that armor configuration that I just mentioned, well then you would be the TW from this killing spree earlier today.

Quote

That... is kinda sad. I spent about 2 minute and some odd seconds fighting. I killed 1 Atlas, 1 TW, 1 Nova, 2 Jagermechs (one AC/40, one 4 ML and twin Gauss) [and all aside from the Atlas were trying to take me out]. I did this without any torso twisting, any fantastic stuff, and in the end I had 48% heat. That was pretty much as high as it got. 2 ML. 2 Streaks. 1 LB-10X. 1 AC/5. 10 DHs.

Before I started in on the Atlas, I fired maybe twice at long range with the shotgun + AC/5. Once I got into the Atlas, I was just systematically killing player after player in a build inspired by this other one of mine. Just fire, keep advancing, encircle if needed, continue slaughtering.

You can make this same build on an Atlas as well, but it doesn't make it OP.
However, the hitboxes are far better than an Atlas.
Much like a Timber Wolf, which has some of the most 'overpowered' hitboxes ever made. Only things that have better hitboxes are the Stormcrow, the Stalker, and the Firestarter.

What I'm saying is the hitboxes need tweaking.

In addition, the Timber S with its side torsos + dual missile racks + ballistic / energy side (5 hardpoints per side torso, that's 2 missile, 2 jumpjets and 1 energy or ballistic hardpoint) for a single side torso with penalties FAR softer than what the Dire Wolf gets for an arm is still a bit much. The original negative quirks went a good way to make them less favorable without obsoleting them. But those were "eased up" during the second public test as people were complaining about being "overnerfed." Those were exclusively on the S side torsos, and nothing said you have to run both of them at once.

Edited by Koniving, 19 September 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Wait until after they get done redoing the quirks on all the IS mechs then lets see how it looks.

[Mystere]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

The funny part about your story is that you like many others have no concept of what OP means. It's like you think when someone points out something is OP, is has to be almost invincible, which is totally not the same thing at all. When something has a clear overall advantage over others, even when it's not totally overwhelmingly godmodely so, it is still OP.

And on the other side of the spectrum, any slight advantage, no matter how small, is declared unfair, is OP, and must be nerfed.

So, how do you define "overpowered"? Is it 5% better? 10%? 15%? How do you propose to quantify OPness?

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Even you must have heard of the messed up hitboxes of the TW where the back hitboxes are so small, you can safely shave off lots of it and just toss it into the front, giving you ability to tank a lot better than your weight.

Then that is a bug. And as such the solution is to call for a fix, not a nerf.

[Archon]

XX Sulla XX, on 19 September 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

Wait until after they get done redoing the quirks on all the IS mechs then lets see how it looks.

This. I for one am sick of nerfs and think the Timberwolf is the prime example of what a mech should look like in terms of freedom of play and enjoyability. I contend that rather than continue with the piledriving overnerfing stompfest that has been the norm for "balance" up until this point, we instead buff other mechs to the point where they are just as much fun to play as the best ones, instead of robbing that feeling of enjoyment you get when you play them. There is no better example of this happening than the Victor. PGI is finally doing the right thing by buffing it to where it should be. I say we continue this trend with other mechs that are sub-par.

[Torgun]

Mystere, on 19 September 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

And on the other side of the spectrum, any slight advantage, no matter how small, is declared unfair, is OP, and must be nerfed.

So, how do you define "overpowered"? Is it 5% better? 10%? 15%? How do you propose to quantify OPness?




Then that is a bug. And as such the solution is to call for a fix, not a nerf.

Players tend to gravitate towards the most OP mechs, and TWs that only are playable for people that paid for them are still the most prominent mech in MWO right now should pretty much tell you something is seriously not balanced with it. And it's not like it's been that for a short while, it's been like this for months.

As for the hitbox fixes should be called nerfs or bug fixes, that boils down to if you believe it's an accident it got the hitboxes it has now or if it's by design. You call it bug fix, I'll call it nerf.

Edited by Torgun, 19 September 2014 - 05:22 PM.

[Sagamore]

What if the TW was considered an assault mech rather than a heavy for matchmaking purposes?

[Glythe]

Hardin4188, on 19 September 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Yes that is the mwo that I want. I would rather have that then nerf this mech, then the next mech, then the next mech. See it is an endless cycle. That's the problem with balancing. There is always something to complain about it and if the devs listened to every complaint then the game would be broken beyond repair.

I see you missed the period of the game when this was Assault warrior online. During that era there were no weight limits so everyone played an assault or was a light-medium-heavy xp pinata. It was possible to see 8 assaults vs 8 punching bags and the majority of the time the Assaults rofl stomped them.

I see you missed the period of the game when LRMs went up vertically and then came down vertically like rain. That was LRM warrior online.

This cycle happened again with ECM. It became ECM warrior online. You only saw DDCs, Ravens, and a handful of the most powerful direct fire mechs. If you had a +2 ECM advantage you had something like a +30% change to win the game regardless of who was playing.

This cycle happened again with ppcs+gauss rifles. It became poptart warrior online. You either hid your entire team where they can't snipe and said we aren't coming out.... come get us OR you had more poptarts and you refused to move from your sniper cover. Of all the broken periods of the game this was the most horrific and stupid era.

Unless something is done we're going to have TImberwolf online. It has too many weapon hardpoints and gets to ignore ghost heat rules. Combine that with good speed, clan weapons and extra engine heatsinks and there is nothing the IS has that will match it.

[Naduk]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 19 September 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

Its been hinted the victor is getting unnerfed so now why are you crying for a TW nerf ?

http://mwomercs.com/...ctor-quirk-set/

because 75tons should not be more powerful in every single way and scenario than 100tons

[LT. HARDCASE]

Can someone give me a rundown of what is wrong with the TW's hitboxes? I genuinely don't know, though I've seen it mentioned a lot that they need no rear armor. Why is that?

[wanderer]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

So all I have to do to roll faces as a Timbie pilot is to hide my legs down the ramp while exposing only my upper torsi? Simple enough.

If you've only got your upper body exposed? You've just extended your lifespan considerably, assuming even modest capacity to turn away from shots otherwise. Timbys don't have barn-door CTs and can survive a side torso loss without complaint at this point, after all.

On the other hand, I've watched a bunch of group games where people did go for the ankle-bites. It's very effective, especially with armor skimping tending to come from leg armor to start with for many layouts.

[wanderer]

Sagamore, on 19 September 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

What if the TW was considered an assault mech rather than a heavy for matchmaking purposes?

The game would be immensely easier to balance if matchmakers treated designs by tiers rather than simply weight. Clantech would just simply bump a 'Mech into a higher slot than an IS design of the same tonnage. I'd easily rate a TW in the same tier as, oh, lighter IS assaults like the Dragon Slayer.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

The funny part about your story is that you like many others have no concept of what OP means. It's like you think when someone points out something is OP, is has to be almost invincible, which is totally not the same thing at all. When something has a clear overall advantage over others, even when it's not totally overwhelmingly godmodely so, it is still OP. Even you must have heard of the messed up hitboxes of the TW where the back hitboxes are so small, you can safely shave off lots of it and just toss it into the front, giving you ability to tank a lot better than your weight. Add the speed, agility and heat management from all those DHS and you get a package that is too good compared to others, thus it being OP.

Then by your definition OP is a matter of perspective. To me a mech that only puts up slightly above average stats despite the fact is is fairly fast, fairly agile and has good heat management isn't OP, rather those features just make it a good mech that is competitive and fun to play. Basically your saying, "Nerf the TW" just because it happens to be more fun than some other mechs. To me that makes no sense. I mean seriously is the only "balanced" mechs in the game the ones that are generally boring and frustrating to play?? Seems counter to the whole purpose of a game to me. (much like PGIs obsession with heat seems also counter to fun).

Also, who says it is too good compared to others? I got worked by an Ilya remember. I am comparing it to others, that is the whole point. There are several other mechs within 10 tons of it that can give it a run for its money (Jager, Cataphract, Victor, Stalker, Battlemaster to name a few).

Even if it is the best heavy in the game, what does it matter? I mean some mech has to be the best, why not the TW. I mean whats the point of say nerfing to the point a Cataphract becomes the best? Does the Cataphract become OP because it is the best? And if the Cataphract then becomes the best do you nerf it until the TW becomes the best again? Seriously where does it stop? No, sorry a mech can be best in class without deserving a nerf IF is does not dominate the game.

Lastly, as far as the hit boxes, yeah I have noticed that the TW take a bit too much damage from the rear on several occasions but if the hit boxes are borked, they just need to be fixed. Reducing mobility or adding negative quirks to fix a borked hit box though is just crazy.

[Aresye]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

No one is asking the devs to nerf TW into uselessness. But clearly something needs to be done, fixing the hitboxes should be one of the main things. But it does need to be made less powerful unless we want to see around 50% TWs in all matches in November.

People are asking to nerf the TW because it's the best mech in the game. An Atlas ISN'T supposed to overpower it. That's why an Atlas has a lower Battle Value than the Timberwolf.

The only way the TW will not end up being the most commonly used mech in the game is if it's nerfed to the point that other mechs are better than it. So what will then take the top spot? The Dragon Slayer again? Because that's what it looks like.

I guess the thing I don't get is it seems people want to nerf the TW solely because it's the top. They think tonnage determines balance and therefore a 100t assault should NOT be worse than a 75t heavy. Sorry folks, but tonnage and weight class isn't everything.

So here's how I see the balance in regards to being "good" from a game balancing perspective:
- The TW and Victor should be pretty much perfectly even with each other.
- The Dire Wolf is easy to boat and should have negative quirks focused on boating to encourage players to have a more diverse loadout (It will still pack a punch. It just won't be "as devastating" a punch).

When it comes to IS vs Clan in a competitive scene, you'll have:
IS Teams: 3 Victors, 3 Cataphracts
Clan Teams: 3 Dire Wolves, 3 TImberwolves
*The Timberwolves would be balanced against the Victors, and the Dire Wolves would be balanced against the overall higher agility and focus fire potential of the IS team.

Edited by Aresye, 19 September 2014 - 08:06 PM.

[Ultimax]

Naduk, on 19 September 2014 - 05:32 PM, said:

because 75tons should not be more powerful in every single way and scenario than 100tons

When a TBR comes face to face with a DWF or well built Atlas, I assure you it's not some foregone conclusion that the TBR will win.

Not by a long shot.

Aresye, on 19 September 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

People are asking to nerf the TW because it's the best mech in the game. An Atlas ISN'T supposed to overpower it. That's why an Atlas has a lower Battle Value than the Timberwolf.

Those BV are based on different mechs. We are not playing those clan mechs, they are wildly more powerful than what we are using and the IS mechs they are fighting are much weaker.

[El Bandito]

wanderer, on 19 September 2014 - 05:38 PM, said:

If you've only got your upper body exposed? You've just extended your lifespan considerably, assuming even modest capacity to turn away from shots otherwise. Timbys don't have barn-door CTs and can survive a side torso loss without complaint at this point, after all.

On the other hand, I've watched a bunch of group games where people did go for the ankle-bites. It's very effective, especially with armor skimping tending to come from leg armor to start with for many layouts.

You know what I found sad, Wanderer? Clan pilots are so spoiled by their mechs, I see fewer and fewer of them to actively torso twist, compared to IS pilots. Boy, they are in for a rude awakening once the ST penalty hits.

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

When a TBR comes face to face with a DWF or well built Atlas, I assure you it's not some foregone conclusion that the TBR will win.

Not by a long shot.

That's situational at best, hence not fit for an argument. Meanwhile Timbie is contributing to the team far better than a brawler Atlas at long and mid range fights.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 September 2014 - 10:32 PM.