268 replies to this topic

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 19 September 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

I see at least 3x as many TW as I do Summoner, that's terribly presumptuous of me to think it's because the TW is way better. Heh.

lol at people bragging up that no one runs a summoner.... that mech is just bad rely bad even buy IS standards and you are surprised?

[jaxjace]

I disagree. I think it will be just fine where it is when the clans get their nerf. and its coming btw... side torso destruction speed and heat nerf. BOOM. as it is in tabletop.


Also the summoner is not a bad mech.
the timberwolf is not better than it in every way. summoner can jump away. also carry more missle tubes.

Now as for the timber hitboxes... keep everything the same EXCEPT increase cockpit hitbox because lets be honest. its begging for that headshot.

[kapusta11]

Let' see:
CERML are not ghost heated to 4
CERML + CLPL are not penalized as well.

We'll put the fact that you can torso twist and mitigate first alpha or two, leaving TW hot as hell aside.

In other words Timberwolf exploits MWO's broken heat system with insane heat capacity. I can see only one proper way tp fix that.

[Torgun]

Viktor Drake, on 19 September 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

Then by your definition OP is a matter of perspective. To me a mech that only puts up slightly above average stats despite the fact is is fairly fast, fairly agile and has good heat management isn't OP, rather those features just make it a good mech that is competitive and fun to play. Basically your saying, "Nerf the TW" just because it happens to be more fun than some other mechs. To me that makes no sense. I mean seriously is the only "balanced" mechs in the game the ones that are generally boring and frustrating to play?? Seems counter to the whole purpose of a game to me. (much like PGIs obsession with heat seems also counter to fun).

Also, who says it is too good compared to others? I got worked by an Ilya remember. I am comparing it to others, that is the whole point. There are several other mechs within 10 tons of it that can give it a run for its money (Jager, Cataphract, Victor, Stalker, Battlemaster to name a few).

Even if it is the best heavy in the game, what does it matter? I mean some mech has to be the best, why not the TW. I mean whats the point of say nerfing to the point a Cataphract becomes the best? Does the Cataphract become OP because it is the best? And if the Cataphract then becomes the best do you nerf it until the TW becomes the best again? Seriously where does it stop? No, sorry a mech can be best in class without deserving a nerf IF is does not dominate the game.

Lastly, as far as the hit boxes, yeah I have noticed that the TW take a bit too much damage from the rear on several occasions but if the hit boxes are borked, they just need to be fixed. Reducing mobility or adding negative quirks to fix a borked hit box though is just crazy.

Here we go with the fun claims again. Somehow lots of players happen to think TW is more fun than other mechs, is that your reasoning that it's totally crowding the player queue? Because that sounds like an excuse to let something badly balanced run free. I heard my fair share of claims about the R3L when it was everywhere it's just being fun to play, not OP when it was ridiculously hard to hit due to miniscule hitboxes. In reality being able to win easier is pretty much how most define fun, and that's why TW is being used so much more than other mechs. You know it'll turn into a ridiculous amount of TW once it's released for CBills too. It's silly now, it's going to be outright ridiculous in the future. How anyone can claim that's just fine is really looking forward to TimberWolf Online.

[Torgun]

Aresye, on 19 September 2014 - 08:02 PM, said:

People are asking to nerf the TW because it's the best mech in the game. An Atlas ISN'T supposed to overpower it. That's why an Atlas has a lower Battle Value than the Timberwolf.

The only way the TW will not end up being the most commonly used mech in the game is if it's nerfed to the point that other mechs are better than it. So what will then take the top spot? The Dragon Slayer again? Because that's what it looks like.

I guess the thing I don't get is it seems people want to nerf the TW solely because it's the top. They think tonnage determines balance and therefore a 100t assault should NOT be worse than a 75t heavy. Sorry folks, but tonnage and weight class isn't everything.

So here's how I see the balance in regards to being "good" from a game balancing perspective:
- The TW and Victor should be pretty much perfectly even with each other.
- The Dire Wolf is easy to boat and should have negative quirks focused on boating to encourage players to have a more diverse loadout (It will still pack a punch. It just won't be "as devastating" a punch).

When it comes to IS vs Clan in a competitive scene, you'll have:
IS Teams: 3 Victors, 3 Cataphracts
Clan Teams: 3 Dire Wolves, 3 TImberwolves
*The Timberwolves would be balanced against the Victors, and the Dire Wolves would be balanced against the overall higher agility and focus fire potential of the IS team.

First of all just drop the battle value reasoning. There is no matchmaking based on that and thus in the current game has no value in the discussion of balance at all.

And why do we actually need a mech that clearly stands out as better? Because that's what's happening right now, people knows it's clearly easier to win using the TW (except a couple bad TW pilots of course) and they're just letting their digital rears settle into their TWs and run it far more than any other mech. And while I've read some silly theory it's due to some mass psychosis where people imagine something is better that leads to it being used far more than anything else ( a mass psychosis that lasts for months too!), everyone that think about it should know what the most correct answer is.

I agree that tonnage should not be an absolute power meter, but how the heck should one mech have as good tanking ability as heavier mechs due to bad hitbox design and still move at the speed of most mechs in the lighter weight class? It makes no sense and should have been dealt with months ago.

Edited by Torgun, 20 September 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[Griggio]

kapusta11, on 20 September 2014 - 01:23 AM, said:

Let' see:
CERML are not ghost heated to 4
CERML + CLPL are not penalized as well.

We'll put the fact that you can torso twist and mitigate first alpha or two, leaving TW hot as hell aside.

In other words Timberwolf exploits MWO's broken heat system with insane heat capacity. I can see only one proper way tp fix that.

Firing 4 CERML+2CERLL generates about 47% heat for me in it's current state giving me 2 Alphas on CD before putting me into roughly 5-6 seconds of not shooting anything before I can cool down enough before I can fire another Alpha or even think about firing CERLL with anything . This is running 13 D-heatsinks and double efficiencies. So it's definitely not the high pinpoint alpha +heat that makes it so brutal.

What makes it so lethal is it really is the perfect killing machine, especially with Omnipods. Solid hard points...check, massive amounts of armor.......check, quick and agile......check. It has all the right parts in all the right places.

I also highly doubt that the Timber is the sole reason the Heavy population is so congested. Some of the most popular go to mechs are heavies. Ilyas, Phract 3-D's, Jaeger DD's and Firebrands, Cata K-2's and A-1's.....etc etc. It's really not surprising that the heavy que is so saturated.

Edit: I'm ok with a second look at Timbers for balancing, but not in the knee jerk insta balance that a lot of folks are screaming for.

Edited by Griggio, 20 September 2014 - 02:07 AM.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 20 September 2014 - 01:48 AM, said:

Here we go with the fun claims again. Somehow lots of players happen to think TW is more fun than other mechs, is that your reasoning that it's totally crowding the player queue? Because that sounds like an excuse to let something badly balanced run free. I heard my fair share of claims about the R3L when it was everywhere it's just being fun to play, not OP when it was ridiculously hard to hit due to miniscule hitboxes. In reality being able to win easier is pretty much how most define fun, and that's why TW is being used so much more than other mechs. You know it'll turn into a ridiculous amount of TW once it's released for CBills too. It's silly now, it's going to be outright ridiculous in the future. How anyone can claim that's just fine is really looking forward to TimberWolf Online.

Unlike other mechs you can build the TW to do just about anything. srm / brawler, LRM boat, sniper, support builds, laser boats, can almost do anything you wont it to it's the swiss army knife of mechs. and its very fun to play..... no wounder people love the mech and it has nothing to do with it as you say being able to win easier

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 20 September 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[Torgun]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

Unlike other mechs you can build the TW to do just about anything. srm / brawler, LRM boat, sniper, support builds, laser boats, can almost do anything you wont it to it's the swiss army knife of mechs. and its very fun to play..... no wounder people love the mech and it has nothing to do with it as you say being able to win easier

So you're saying it's OP after all? I mean if one mech can take the place of just about any other mech, it's pretty much the definition of being OP. The only exception I can think of is IS lights since it can't reach those speeds.

Edited by Torgun, 20 September 2014 - 02:11 AM.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 20 September 2014 - 02:09 AM, said:

So you're saying it's OP after all? I mean if one mech can take the place of just about any other mech, it's pretty much the definition of being OP.

if in your world being versatile is OP then okay
and no it cant do all at the same time....you have to build it for the role

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 20 September 2014 - 02:15 AM.

[Torgun]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:13 AM, said:

if in your world being versatile is OP then okay
and no it cant do all at the same time....you have to build it for the role

If it's so versatile it can fill the role of lots of other mechs as good or even better, that is totally an indication a mech is OP. And no you don't need to be able to do it all at once, that would be going into some god mode. It means one mech renders a whole bunch of others pointless, which is what's happening now.

[Sagamore]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:05 AM, said:

Unlike other mechs you can build the TW to do just about anything. srm / brawler, LRM boat, sniper, support builds, laser boats, can almost do anything you wont it to it's the swiss army knife of mechs. and its very fun to play..... no wounder people love the mech and it has nothing to do with it as you say being able to win easier

The biggest issue, in my opinion, is the fact that the matchmaker considers a 60 ton Dragon or Quickdraw to be equal to a Timberwolf. The TW is, without question, the best in class as far as heavies go. There is no incentive to take the lighter heavies except for "fun" purposes. But as we know, winning is also fun.

As a side-note, I'm leveling a Jester right now and it really is a joke. Looking at what I'm packing vs the TW considering we are in the same weight class: the TW is faster, has more armour, carries twice the firepower, and does not die to side torso loss. If it wasn't the last Catapult that I needed to master, I wouldn't even bother.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 20 September 2014 - 02:19 AM, said:

If it's so versatile it can fill the role of lots of other mechs as good or even better, that is totally an indication a mech is OP. And no you don't need to be able to do it all at once, that would be going into some god mode. It means one mech renders a whole bunch of others pointless, which is what's happening now.

no it cant DPS and hit as hard as a DW it has no ECM cant braw as good as my DDC cant pop tart like my DS, IS LRM boats are better than clans do to IS fire in clomps and clans do not. so no its not the best mech for most roles it just that its convent to have one mech that can do it all VS having 10+ mechs to feel all roles

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 20 September 2014 - 02:30 AM.

[Torgun]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:29 AM, said:

no it cant DPS and hit as hard as a DW it has no ECM cant braw as good as my DDC cant pop tart like my DS, IS LRM boats are better than clans do to IS fire in clomps can clans do not. so no its not the best mech for most roles it just that its convent to have one mech that can do it all VS having 10+ mechs to feel all roles

Poptarting? That's finished man, with the hover jets we have for assaults now. But instead we have a heavy mech that move at the speed of most mediums and tank as good as most std engine assaults, that totally sounds reasonable.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 20 September 2014 - 02:32 AM, said:

Poptarting? That's finished man, with the hover jets we have for assaults now. But instead we have a heavy mech that move at the speed of most mediums and tank as good as most std engine assaults, that totally sounds reasonable.

poptarting is not dead its just a lot harder and not the only go to tactic any more and the victors / DS is getting buffed back up soon

[STEF_]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

You know what I found sad, Wanderer? Clan pilots are so spoiled by their mechs, I see fewer and fewer of them to actively torso twist, compared to IS pilots. Boy, they are in for a rude awakening once the ST penalty hits.

Why should they twist? Too much simple for them to put 2 points of back CT armor and all front CT armor.
I really wish pgi to fix its silly hitboxes

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 20 September 2014 - 02:44 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Ultimatum X, on 19 September 2014 - 08:16 PM, said:

When a TBR comes face to face with a DWF or well built Atlas, I assure you it's not some foregone conclusion that the TBR will win.

Not by a long shot.

This kind of reasoning is so weird to me, people saying that things not need balancing because "it can be killed". A bit like the people saying things are not P2W if it doesn't guarantee victory. Things needs balancing if they are too much better that something else, and in the same way cash only things are P2W if they give significant gameplay advantages. It has absolutely nothing to do with being guaranteed to win.

Every mech in the game CAN kill every other mech in the game, so by your reasoning nothing needs to be buffed or nerfed ever as long as this is true. That's a seriously weird approach to balancing.

My own approach is that all mechs in the game should be as equally viable as possible at all levels of competition. And no that does not mean everything needs to be the same, because things can be good/bad in different ways and situations. People who say that balancing takes away variety have a lousy logic, as if strength was the only difference between mechs and weapons. Clan tech for example can be just as different without being better or worse.

So yeah, go ahead and make the timber wolf about as strong as other mechs or vice versa.

[Torgun]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

poptarting is not dead its just a lot harder and not the only go to tactic any more and the victors / DS is getting buffed back up soon

Either way you can barely clear low obstacles now with an assault mech, thus having very few places where you can even poptart from. Even then you have to watch so you don't break your legs after a couple times. Victors will/should get their agility back, but still it won't change the poptarting that is linked to how the JJs thrust and how much fall damage you get. It's pretty much over so people have gravitated towards the current best thing: TWs all day and all night.

[Iron Riding Cowboy]

Torgun, on 20 September 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

Either way you can barely clear low obstacles now with an assault mech, thus having very few places where you can even poptart from. Even then you have to watch so you don't break your legs after a couple times. Victors will/should get their agility back, but still it won't change the poptarting that is linked to how the JJs thrust and how much fall damage you get. It's pretty much over so people have gravitated towards the current best thing: TWs all day and all night.

as i said a lot harder and not the best go to tactic any more but its steal a tactic and when the victor gets unnerfed you will see lot more of them and highlanders as well.
when the TW go to CBs yah it will be craze. new shiny and a very popular mech sense MW2 but it will level back out

Edited by Iron Riding Cowboy, 20 September 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Torgun]

Iron Riding Cowboy, on 20 September 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

as i said a lot harder and not the best go to tactic any more but its steal a tactic and when the victor gets unnerfed you will see lot more of them and highlanders as well.
when the TW go to CBs yah it will be craze. new shiny and a very popular mech sense MW2 but it will level back out

I will certainly run my Victors once they stopped making it turn and twist like an Atlas, but it will never be OP of any kind from now on as it was always the poptarting aspect that was the problem. TWs though will be rampant in Nov, and unless the devs do something about it, it will also remain OP.

Edited by Torgun, 20 September 2014 - 03:15 AM.

[Cerberias]

The problem with the timbie is there are no mechs that come close in it's weight class. Uses all available tonnage for the weight class, mobility of a med, more firepower than most other heavies. It has incredible survivability (very hard to core CT if they're not afk or bad), and the mobility to take an absolute kicking and keep on running. Almost every game in the timbie I lose both arms before LT and CT through the shield LT, absorbing close to ~400 damage a min each game while putting 51 damage alphas at 400m, or 37 damage at 700m running close to heat neutral.

It needs the JJ's taken off, to stop the abusing of the quick bursts of JJ's screwing the hitboxes, at the very least.