90 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

SRMs do 2.15 damage per missile.
IS "SRM 2 4.30 damage"
IS "SRM 4 8.60 damage."
IS "SRM 6 12.90 damage."

I wouldn't call that completely outclassing superior damage, but fair enough.

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

You are correct on the Clan LPL. 1.2 second beam time. One of the hidden balance changes in the last public test was potentially reducing the Clan LPL to 0.7 seconds (something I'm violently opposed to). It seems they haven't, but up against Clan LPLs I am definitely noticing a power difference so I thought they made that change already.

Yeah, I can't see dropping down to 0.7 as that would be insane. I'm pretty content where the CLPL are right now.

[Mcgral18]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

If you say T-Wolf and Direwhale are not OP, then let me be the first to laugh at you when the next wave of Clan nerfs hit.

I don't consider the Dire Whale OP. Too slow.

Not ideal hitboxes either. I managed to take a not very well piloted one in a 22 tube SHD last night. DakkaWhales have the disadvantage of DoT. Dual Gauss+laser ones, less so.

Never used one, though.

[Ultimax]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

After the laser nerfs, the Clan pulse lasers might have received range nerfs, but the 0.7 second beam times at 11+ damage for large pulse lasers are a huge advantage.

Clan large pulse lasers have a 1.2s beam time.

Clan medium pulse lasers have an 0.85s beam time.

[r4plez]

Nyden, on 19 September 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

They ran a clan vs. IS test tuesday or wednesday. The all clans teams won 73% of the time, according to Russ. With those numbers it seems fairly clear that clan mechs are still more powerful than IS mechs.

As it should be.

[Jon Gotham]

I don't feel clan mechs are op-especially so now.
There is only one clan mech I even consider to be a major threat, the Timberwolf. The Mad Dog is also going to be a beast.....the rest just leave me a sense of "meh."

[Odins Fist]

Nyden, on 19 September 2014 - 06:56 AM, said:

They ran a clan vs. IS test tuesday or wednesday. The all clans teams won 73% of the time, according to Russ. With those numbers it seems fairly clear that clan mechs are still more powerful than IS mechs.

Supposed to be....

[Tezcatli]

I'm gonna wait for the IS quirks. They already gave them a nerf pass to their Laser Vomit. Hopefully the quirk buffs combined with the Side CT penalty will bring the matches closer.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:

<stuff>

I have a few problems with the example you've provided. First I'm almost positive that jam is supposed to be per burst not shot however there seems to be an issue with the jam chance being on click regardless of if the click results in a shot. I'll have to do some testing when I get home but I'm almost certain that is the way.

Next, the DW just has more armor+internals and with 6 UAC5s will out dps just about anything you can fit on a Banshee with with 3 AC5s. And that is without double tap. I looked at 2 LL, 2 ML, 3 AC5 for the banshee and completely threw out the consideration of heat. It sits at 15.77 DPS. A 6 UAC5 DW is at 18.08. So the DW should win with no need to even chance a jam.

While possible, I would not be betting on 4 UAC5s jamming first double tap. Its something like 15% chance per gun.

Lets leave out head shots because you said this was a staring contest with no defending and the DW would most likely win that fight too.

As for ghost heat. 6 UAC5s = 8.72 heat over 1.53 seconds that is 5.70 heat per second. With just the 15 hardwired heat sinks the DW cools 3.11 per second and has a cap of 61.20 so you probably got 30 seconds at normal fire. It does heat up with double tapping though. I personally don't run 6, I go with 5 + 4 ERML but I don't much care for the UAC5 wolves at all.

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

The big stickler is that with canon heat values, IS will always be able to pump out superior damage in a single blow of multiple weapons at once.

For example: Canon heat values. Condition: Must keep an alpha strike below 30 heat.

IS ML: 9 fired. 27 heat. 45 damage. 270 meters. 90% heat.
Clan ER ML: 5 fired. 25 heat. 35 damage. 450 meters. 83.33% heat.

IS LL: 3 fired. 24 heat. 24 damage. 450 meters. 80% heat.
Clan ER LL: 2 fired. 24 heat. 20 damage. 750 meters. 80% heat.

IS PPC: 2 fired. 20 heat. 20 damage. 540 meters. 66.67% heat.
Clan ER PPC: 1 fired. 15 heat. 15 damage. 690 meters. 50% heat.

Almost no need for ghost heat.

So long as the game revolves around twisting and shooting and not a staring match. I do suspect there is an unseen problem here though, as is the case with all systems.

[Mystere]

Livewyr, on 19 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Let us see what happens when ST destruction penalties are added. (I just hope they do not over-do it like they went on CERLL...)

The player base totally deserves what it is about to get.

[Adiuvo]

lol @ clan mechs being slow and unable to deal with lights. Any mech except for a 300 or less rated Atlas or Daishi can keep up with a light. The Timberwolf completely shits on them, a light can't maneuver around it.

You're not even citing correct speeds. There's only one IS assault mech that can reasonably go 80kph without completely gimping itself, and that's the Victor. Dying from one side torso vs. 2 is a massive disadvantage and is what makes the clans more powerful. They're essentially running STD engines except at half weight.

IS ECM mechs generally aren't that great. A Raven can't fulfill the typical light role, a Spider deals no damage, a Cicada is just garbage... the DDC is fine but has the same speed issues that the Daishi has. It can't move 80kph.

You're also ignoring the whole 90%/73% win rate thing.

The difference in SRM damage literally is irrelevant. It's .9 less damage between SRM6s. 12 vs. 12.9. Completely. Entirely. Irrelevant.

There is no chance for jamming per bullet. It's per burst. If you click early you may jam, but that's entirely your fault.

Making a determination about clan balance without an understanding of mechanics is impossible.

[Kiryuin Ragyo]

Clans are OP. And this is not a joke.

[CyclonerM]

To be fair, i have to correct the OP on a few points

The only 'Mechs that are slower than most of their IS counterparts are the two current lights and maybe the Nova, though it compensates through raw firepower (though with speed tweak it gets almost as fast as the stock Nova, and the Stormcrow is ast fast as the Clan lights). The heavies go quite fast, and they are pretty agile. Their "underpowered" engines are XL300s, and they are quite agile, especially the Summoner. The Warhawk goes fast enough for an Assault, 64 kph.

Besides, we will get soon the Gargoyle, which is quite undergunned for but hits 81 KPH, not to mention two new ECM 'Mechs, a light and a heavy.

[Riverboat Sam]

Adiuvo, on 19 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

lol @ clan mechs being slow and unable to deal with lights. Any mech except for a 300 or less rated Atlas or Daishi can keep up with a light. The Timberwolf completely shits on them, a light can't maneuver around it. You're not even citing correct speeds. There's only one IS assault mech that can reasonably go 80kph without completely gimping itself, and that's the Victor. Dying from one side torso vs. 2 is a massive disadvantage and is what makes the clans more powerful. They're essentially running STD engines except at half weight. IS ECM mechs generally aren't that great. A Raven can't fulfill the typical light role, a Spider deals no damage, a Cicada is just garbage... the DDC is fine but has the same speed issues that the Daishi has. It can't move 80kph. You're also ignoring the whole 90%/73% win rate thing. The difference in SRM damage literally is irrelevant. It's .9 less damage between SRM6s. 12 vs. 12.9. Completely. Entirely. Irrelevant. There is no chance for jamming per bullet. It's per burst. If you click early you may jam, but that's entirely your fault. Making a determination about clan balance without an understanding of mechanics is impossible.

There's a difference between knowledge and prejudice. You can see anything you want, but 45 KPH is still almost half of 80 KPH, and one third of 152 KPH (which the Jenner and Raven can do). There is just no comparison. But you cannot handle that. Just keep believing what you like.

[Carrie Harder]

CyclonerM, on 19 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

The only 'Mechs that are slower than most of their IS counterparts are the two current lights and maybe the Nova...

And the Dire Whale, because most experienced assault pilots tend to make their mech go more than 53 kph...the typical IS assault is probably somewhere around 64 kph (with Victors being the outlier that go into the 70s to lower 80s due to XL friendly hitboxes).

Edited by Carrie Harder, 19 September 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Riverboat Sam]

CyclonerM, on 19 September 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

To be fair, i have to correct the OP on a few points The only 'Mechs that are slower than most of their IS counterparts are the two current lights and maybe the Nova, though it compensates through raw firepower (though with speed tweak it gets almost as fast as the stock Nova, and the Stormcrow is ast fast as the Clan lights). The heavies go quite fast, and they are pretty agile. Their "underpowered" engines are XL300s, and they are quite agile, especially the Summoner. The Warhawk goes fast enough for an Assault, 64 kph. Besides, we will get soon the Gargoyle, which is quite undergunned for but hits 81 KPH, not to mention two new ECM 'Mechs, a light and a heavy.

In what game are these things you say true? The Adder and Kitfox both run right at 100 KPH with speed tweak. The Jenner runs 152 KPH with speed tweak. How is that the same speed? The Stormcrow is as fast as the IS lights? The Stormcrow runs 92 KPH standard and 101 KPH with speed tweak. Again, 50% slower than the IS lights. You really need to start dealing with the actual numbers rather than opinion and prejudice.

[Murphy7]

Koniving, on 19 September 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

After the laser nerfs, the Clan pulse lasers might have received range nerfs, but the 0.7 second beam times at 11+ damage for large pulse lasers are a huge advantage.

In fact, pulse lasers are really the only good weapon that Clans are running at this moment. ER PPCs + Gauss? Gone to crap.
Streaks or SRMs? Completely outdone by the superior damage of IS SRMs.
Autocannon to autocannon? IS wins every time, even with inferior numbers of ACs. (Banshee is vastly superior to Dire Wolf when it comes to head to head, march at each other, NO torso twisting direct fire CT to CT, Banshee ALWAYS wins with 3 AC/5s against random mixed numbers of UAC/10s, UAC/20s, UAC/5s and UAC/2s.
LRMs, Clans are slightly better because the stream fire is more CT-bound and the rattle really throws off aim. Not to mention with stream fire the ghost heat almost doesn't exist.
Gauss? Clans do a bit better here, it's easier to see when the Gauss is charged up or not. This is a color HUD problem, not a superior Gauss problem.

I agree and disagree with some of your points in bold.

I am liking the clan ER PPCs more and more - started as my wishful thinking TWolf as Marauder (C) variant, but I have really warmed up to how those weapons perform.

Clan ER lasers are still really, really good. Considering tonnage and crit space, there is nothing that performs like the Clan ER Medium laser - it is a fantastic weapon, much like the IS Med Laser was prior to clan comparisons. Clan ER LLas are extra fantastic simply because of the single crit slot - that is a lot of firepower that could be fit anywhere. For example, Hellbringer-A with the head energy slot could be using Clan ER LLaser vision before long.

Autocannon are an area that the IS consistently does better with, but the Direwolf can mount volume fire that nothing can match up to, and I am really liking how the Clan LB-20x performs - that is a really nice weapon in their arsenal.


I have no idea what you are on about with varying SRM damage. I thought SRM is SRM damage, clan or IS. Probably I have missed something.

Gauss is where Clan and IS really do break even - while Clan gauss is lighter, the Inner Sphere has more options to craft their mech around accommodating one or two Gauss. Clan pod space may allow dual gauss on many chassis, but the same pod space limits don't get them much ammo with those guns (excepting the Direwolf, which is an 100 ton Behemoth, or as close to a Behemoth as we are likely to get this side of Harmony Gold).

[Fuggles]

if you simply removed the timberwolf and the direwolf from the clan arsenal it would be alot more balanced.

IS pilots really shouldnt fear a clan team filled with badders, summoners, warhawks and now novas.

[Jonathan Paine]

Why Clans are still currently superior to IS even after the laser nerf:
1. Clan Gauss is just as powerful as IS, but weighs 3 tons less and takes up 1 less crit. (30 Gauss rounds at 0 weight cost, 2 crits)
2. Clan Endo gives same weight bonus as 7 less critical slots. 7!!!
3. Clan DHS takes up 2 crits instead of 3. They fit in legs for crying out loud!
4. Yes, we all know that clans pretty much get XL engines for free.
5. ER PPC weighs 1 ton less, takes up 1 less crit and gets a 50% splash damage bonus.
6. Clan MG's weigh half as much
7. Clan Ferro takes up 7 less crits
8. Clan SRMs weigh HALF of IS SRMs. Hooray for front loaded damage.
- Note: Clan SRMs do 0.15 less damage for each missile, and cycles slightly slower.

These are just the OBVIOUS advantages that the Clan enjoy.

How do we deal with this? Well, the interesting solutions of running asymmetrical team sizes does not seem to be implemented, so Clanners will need even more nerfs (and IS even more buffs) so that people can play just another arena shooter where every single mech is supposed to be exactly as tough as the other mech.

[Adiuvo]

Enlil09, on 19 September 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

There's a difference between knowledge and prejudice. You can see anything you want, but 45 KPH is still almost half of 80 KPH, and one third of 152 KPH (which the Jenner and Raven can do). There is just no comparison. But you cannot handle that. Just keep believing what you like.

The Daishi moves 53.5, not 45. It doesn't even move 45 without speed tweak, it moves 48.6...

If you can't even argue your point without using incorrect, easily checked numbers, then you have no argument.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 19 September 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

You're also ignoring the whole 90%/73% win rate thing.

I have a question for you: Should air forces use crop duster pilots in determining whether to buy a French Rafale or a Russian SU-27? Or should they rather use reasonably competent fighter pilots?

Edited by Mystere, 19 September 2014 - 10:40 AM.