123 replies to this topic

[Glythe]

How about no? The game was broken when the longest range weapons were also the best close range weaopns.

PPC was stupid before.... super long range, super fast projectile with infinite ammunition. Most people consider it fixed. You should pay for long range weapons with more heat and more weight. Not having to do both made them really broken (on top of everything else). There was a reason 80% of players in every single match were sporting PPCs.


The Gauss rifle was overnerfed as it should either explode or have the charge mechanic not both. The charge mechanic should last about 1.5 seconds longer too.


Is the game still broken? Yes because ghost heat ruins a lot of mechs that don't perfectly fit the mold for balanced weapon diversity. But it's better than poptart online.

[Lightfoot]

@Glythe

The PPC earns it's faster projectile speed balance-wise by having high heat, 90 meter minimum range, long recharge for just 10 damage that becomes longer as the mech overheats and needs to cool down, variable depending on your other loadout weapons, but usually 6-8 seconds of no firing with 15-16 DHS. With heatsinks a PPC weighs about 11 tons (assuming 4 are used up by each PPC), but this still overheats quickly. So 15 criticals if some DHS were not in the engine.

Compare to the AC10's 2.5 second recharge, 14 tons with lots of ammo, low heat, no minimum range. And the PPC is slower? That's not balance. Not sure what it is, but balance, it is not.

I understand that players do not like being killed by PPCs if they bring a short range loadout or don't like long range, but MechWarrior features multi-range mech combat ability as a core gameplay element. It can't be removed and when it is nerfed so badly it harms everyone. It ruins large numbers of mechs, gameplay depth, realistic balance.

The Gauss Rifle would be better with 2-3 seconds to shoot after charging. The one second to shoot thing is really overkill. How could you design a game like that? Let the average players and players using joysticks have access to the Gauss Rifle too. I assure you only Battlemechs will be harmed, a lot, I hope.

[Shalune]

I'm not sure what game you're playing where it's the same match over and over. I'd recommend finding an established unit to join and play in organized groups.

I'm not sure what gave you the impression that pinpoint damage ever stopped working either. The damage numbers and properties of gauss and PPC were never touched. There's just a higher skill cap to using them in tandem and/or at extreme ranges. At normal engagement ranges they remain very effective.

[MischiefSC]

Heat does not balance the ppc with higher speed.

How do I know that?

The last 2 years of gameplay prior to the nerf.

[Joe Mallad]

Glythe, on 21 September 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

How about no? The game was broken when the longest range weapons were also the best close range weaopns.

PPC was stupid before.... super long range, super fast projectile with infinite ammunition. Most people consider it fixed. You should pay for long range weapons with more heat and more weight. Not having to do both made them really broken (on top of everything else). There was a reason 80% of players in every single match were sporting PPCs.


The Gauss rifle was overnerfed as it should either explode or have the charge mechanic not both. The charge mechanic should last about 1.5 seconds longer too.


Is the game still broken? Yes because ghost heat ruins a lot of mechs that don't perfectly fit the mold for balanced weapon diversity. But it's better than poptart online.

the Gauss weapon was never meant to be a charge type weapon. Having to charge it takes away from its flavor it once had. But I do agree that it was too powerful in close. So while the AC 20 is best for the in close duty and does not have the range of the Gauss, all they have to do is give the Gauss a min range. Don't allow it to be used under a 100 yards.

[kapusta11]

Fix heat system and you fix PPCs but noo, we need Ghost heat, we need speed nerfs that turn long range weapon into a mid range one with close range dead zone. It's pathetic that whining vocal minority define the course at which game moves.

[MischiefSC]

Please show me where the majority wanted the "ppcs are the best weapon by far" meta we had.

If you want ppcs to be ppfld ballistic weapons they get balanced with other ballistic ppfld weapons. Saying you want all the perks of lasers with all the ppfld goodness of an ac is what made this problem originally.

We had a clown shoes ridiculous superior weapon for a year until it for fixed. Some people want it back. Everyone else says no. That is this argument again and again, replete with trying to justify going back to the same **** concept is somehow just fine because ppcs have the same high heat they had for the whole **** ppc two year meta we just moved past.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 21 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

Heat does not balance the ppc with higher speed.

How do I know that?

The last 2 years of gameplay prior to the nerf.

Sure it does. Heat curtails firing, lowering DPS. The AC10 never overheats, even 2xAC10 with DHS if that's all you have. It fires 10 damage every 2.5 seconds= 40 damage in 10 seconds. PPC fires every 4 seconds so 25 damage in 10 seconds (30 in 12 secs). Until it overheats, then that DPS drops by 30-60 percent or the mech shutsdown and is usually killed quickly at that point.

If you are meaning MWO has no hard heat cap to kill the boaters who would exploit the game for a joke, that may be true, but is not a PPC balance point. It just means MWO needs a hard heat cap to take out players who are obviously and knowingly exploiting the "no heat cap" weakness in the game mechanics.

As for what players want? They want to win. If they hated the PPC that was a good thing. That means it was working as Battle Tech intended. Now they have fluffy PPCs that are useless and all the energy Assaults are useless too. GunWarrior wins again!! Ballistics do no wrong in MWO... except the Gauss Rifle because players could use it at long range... but wait,,, Battle Tech says the Gauss is for long range like the PPC, but everyone hated that too... Battle Tech should be right, period.

[Mothykins]

Everyone's getting out of hand Here. Lightfoot, You're making a paper thin argument that will upset game balance.

MischiefSC, You're getting really abrasive and lumping a high heat energy weapon that was only usable because it was a laser sniper in the same group as low heat AC weapons.


Right now, the ERPPC under preforms and is ditched for LLs and LPLs most of the time. It doesn't shine well enough anywhere anymore, and is undeniably average; all the firing weakness of an Ac (Bullet speed, range) with More issues than the Lasers (Higher heat, Recycle time, weight and Crit slots).

Its advantage is lack of ammo and relatively high Damage to weight/crit size (Subpar compared to lasers still) when compared to the ACs.

That's it.

We need a middle ground, either in mechanics or in additional tech.

For example, right now, the Clans have the ability to buff the ERPPC with targeting computers; While the extreme from either end is pretty sub-par, at MK IV, it's a projectile speed: +10.5% and Crit chance boost of +20.5%; thats a huge difference, and pretty much worth it. (I'm fairly certain it does buff the PPC, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Mechanic wise, You could do something akin to the charge up on the Gauss, but have the charge control range or Impulse (Or both, either inversely or linearly.)


What I'm saying is Instead of just complaining, come up with viable solutions and compromises that might actually work. Don't just attack the other side because you don't like weapon X and it should be nerfed into unusably or Like it to the point it should be Buffed into god-status. The game needs balance. Both of you need to keep that in mind.

Edited by Cavale, 21 September 2014 - 12:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Ppcs work fine for everyone else. Sorry if they don't work for you.

If heat balanced ppcs worked it would have worked for the last 2 years. It didn't.

Your argument is that ppcs were fine before. You are also indirectly implying it's impossible to for people with ppcs, ac10s or almost any ac at its max regular range to hit targets when we know that isn't true. It's about 0.5 sec lead time.

Ppcs are great. Better balanced than they hand ever been. There is not a go to op weapon anymore.

[MischiefSC]

Cavale, on 21 September 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

Everyone's getting out of hand Here. Lightfoot, You're making a paper thin argument that will upset game balance.

MischiefSC, You're getting really abrasive and lumping a high heat energy weapon that was only usable because it was a laser sniper in the same group as low heat AC weapons.


Right now, the ERPPC under preforms and is ditched for LLs and LPLs most of the time. It doesn't shine well enough anywhere anymore, and is undeniably average; all the firing weakness of an Ac (Bullet speed, range) with More issues than the Lasers (Higher heat, Recycle time, weight and Crit slots).

Its advantage is lack of ammo and relatively high Damage to weight/crit size (Subpar compared to lasers still) when compared to the ACs.

That's it.

We need a middle ground, either in mechanics or in additional tech.

For example, right now, the Clans have the ability to buff the ERPPC with targeting computers; While the extreme from either end is pretty sub-par, at MK IV, it's a projectile speed: +10.5% and Crit chance boost of +20.5%; thats a huge difference, and pretty much worth it. (I'm fairly certain it does buff the PPC, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Mechanic wise, You could do something akin to the charge up on the Gauss, but have the charge control range or Impulse (Or both, either inversely or linearly.)


What I'm saying is Instead of just complaining, come up with viable solutions and compromises that might actually work. Don't just attack the other side because you don't like weapon X and it should be nerfed into unusably or Like it to the point it should be Buffed into god-status. The game needs balance. Both of you need to keep that in mind.

Cerppc is generally too got to be viable. More to the point you don't have much else that isn't dot to stack it with giving it poor synergy. That's not bad; the weapon does 15pts at extreme range.

There are few builds that can work a tc4. Clan mechs have little weight and less space to play with.

Erppcs could stand a heat reduction OR a speed buff of 50m/s. Not both our it replaces the ppc completely.

The ppc is ppfld. Accuracy needs damaged with other ppfld weapons, they are all ballistic projectiles.

This argument isn't about "ppc balance". They are better balanced than they have ever been. It's about avoiding a return to the **** mechanics of the last 2 years of ppc dominance.

We already know what faster ppcs play like. We already had it. It sucked, they were brought into balance on purpose.

The problem here is all the utterly disingenuous arguments about heat, weight, etc. Like somehow we don't realize what faster ppcs look and play like already. Every single argument for faster ppcs without across the board speed buffs is the same request for op ppcs. We know this because we already had it and changed it on purpose.

[Mothykins]

MischiefSC, on 21 September 2014 - 01:32 PM, said:

Cerppc is generally too got to be viable. More to the point you don't have much else that isn't dot to stack it with giving it poor synergy. That's not bad; the weapon does 15pts at extreme range.

There are few builds that can work a tc4. Clan mechs have little weight and less space to play with.

Erppcs could stand a heat reduction OR a speed buff of 50m/s. Not both our it replaces the ppc completely.

The ppc is ppfld. Accuracy needs damaged with other ppfld weapons, they are all ballistic projectiles.

This argument isn't about "ppc balance". They are better balanced than they have ever been. It's about avoiding a return to the **** mechanics of the last 2 years of ppc dominance.

We already know what faster ppcs play like. We already had it. It sucked, they were brought into balance on purpose.

The problem here is all the utterly disingenuous arguments about heat, weight, etc. Like somehow we don't realize what faster ppcs look and play like already. Every single argument for faster ppcs without across the board speed buffs is the same request for op ppcs. We know this because we already had it and changed it on purpose.

You're really aggressive, missing the point of my argument and generally making me think that you're an idiot. Calm down, take a step back, and breath.

PPCs are underwhelming compared to anything in their range for the energy hardpoint, PPFLD or not. They have all the weaknesses of an energy build, some of the weaknesses of a ballistics build, and barely any of the perks of either. It is currently the worst of both worlds. They need something to make them desirable, because at the moment they don't shine anywhere. BY NO MEANS DO I WANT THE PPC/GAUSS META BACK.

What I do want is the PPC to excel somewhere, to actually stand out. MPL Is better, ton for ton, in it's short to medium range. At medium to long range, ERLL Is a cut above it in most cases. Both of these cover the midrange the PPC sits in far better than the PPC itself.

You are suggesting a buff that equates to nothing, or a lack of change, and I understand your reasoning. You don't want the Meta back. That's fine. That doesn't mean you need to be scared of a change to a weapon.

It doesn't need to move at the old speed. 1500 was nice to play with, and felt good, but it's a bit faster than really needed or balanced at all. It should really match the AC5 (1050-1200, thereabouts) more than the AC10, as thats where range aligns, IMHO, not where it was before, at 3/4 the Gauss speed.

As for the Gauss, the charge mechanic is actually cool. I like it, it works. I wouldn't be adverse to the PPC picking up a similar mechanic (I sort of like my idea, but that's because I came up with it,) if only to further separate it from the Ballistics. Though we really need a proper tutorial mode that explains the weapons, controls, etc.

Hell, in short term, I'd be fine with chassis like the Awesome and the K2 getting PPC buffs, to encourage people to use the weapon on the stock chassis.

Just don't be afraid of change.

[zortesh]

^ I still use ppcs on a regular basis, they don't stick out as good, but there far from bad, there better than erlarges for the simple fact there ppfld, and you can leap into safety after firing.

Given it is a little slow, but its still a endless ammo ppfld weapon with good range.

And the 90m min range thing isn't a real weakness except in single combat, someone closing within 90m of you should mean there in the firing lines of 4+ teammates.

[MischiefSC]

Please don't try to tone troll. This isn't a new debate, not a new discussion. These are, none of them, new points or new data. The ppc excels at 200-450m. It's ppfld with no ammo. It's a peak peep-shoot-fade weapon. It is however a ppfld weapon with a ballistic projectile. The gauss had weight, explosions and fragility against it and was still the top tier ballistic (after ppcs) around until charge up made it too cumbersome to use for snapshots.

Range and accuracy trump every other factor. Gauss is still excellent it just lacks synergy. Any change to ppcs to make them more accurate than they are currently will make them the most accurate ppfld weapon you can snap shot and boat with. You would have to gimp cool down or heat or other factors so badly as to make it an utter niche weapon like gauss to not make it so.

We already know what fast ppcs play like. This isn't a fear of change; we have change now. Almost every weapon is viable, including ppcs. This is resistance to efforts to reverse change. We don't need to buff/change ppcs. They work as well as any other ballistic heavyweight now. Saying it should only be a bit op like before that will be totally different this time if we just tweak X isn't fooling anyone.

Ppcs are every bit as fine as any other ballistic weapon.

[Comrademig]

I'd rather not have the old "no heat no drawback no skill" gauss back. Not to mention it didn't hit any less hard if we managed to close that long range. As for PPCs, I like where they are right now, they are useful for their range and not farther. I'd be ok with a speed increase to the ERPPC since it runs hot and has this drawback. I'd just really rather long range be as strong was it was this last year..

Edited by Comrademig, 21 September 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[zortesh]

^ wasn't aware the no skill no drawback no heat guass ever left, I play dual guass mechs when I want easy mode, the chargeup mechanic made little difference to me.

[White Bear 84]

I knew this gem would come eventually.. ..once you start to soften the long range combats, someone will have something to say about brawling.. ..the joys of balancing!

Lightfoot, on 19 September 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

What I don't like about the current gameplay is that it is stagnant and repetitious and is only about AC's and Lasers at 300 meters. Nothing stops this load-out from crossing any map and of course once in range it dominates completely as it was designed to by Battle-Tech balancing. And that's wrong. Not that heavy AC's and lasers dominate close range combat, but that they also dominate long range combat since it no longer exists in MWO.

The PPC is just too slow at 850 MPS to hit past 400 meters on moving targets.

The Gauss Rifle is not a sniper rifle. It is too weak at 15 damage for 15 tons to support a difficult de-sync charge-up mechanic and the proof of this is that players will almost always take 2xGauss or none at all. Well that is not how Battle Tech describes the function or use of the Gauss Rifle and it relegates the Gauss Rifle to the Dire Wolf, Cataphract, Jagermech and K2 only, instead of a weapon that is very common on any ballistic capable mech. Now if PGI wants to add an apocryphal mech sniper rifle at 15 tons and say 24 damage, be my guest, but the Gauss Rifle at just 15 damage for 15 tons is balanced to be a long range accurate ballistic that fires normally! A 6 second recharge like an SSRM6 is all that is needed to force it into long range specialization.

You might not like long range tactical gameplay, but MechWarrior requires it for gameplay depth and tactical development. Without long range as a working option MechWarrior becomes the same arcade match repeated over and over and does not grow the kind of player experiences that bring players back to try something new. Maybe some new tactic they planned on their own or maybe with a team.

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Currently there are plenty of Gauss and C/ERLLasers around to keep accurate long range fire as an option. Less PPFLD makes the game last longer and actually let me enjoy the combat better.

^This.

OP, I dare you to do a 12 man or group drop because it sounds like your pugging it. Pretty much 100% guaranteed that most groups run meta, which usually involves one or more gauss (if not an AC20).

I for one love the dear gauss, it has been and always will be my favorite weapon. I HATE the charge up with a passion, but tbh it really just makes it more a weapon of skill now. It is great for practicing timing of shots and developing patience. I love it when im trailing a shot on a fast mech and then BOOM they are dead - so satisfying!

As for PPC's the slow projectile is a bit annoying, there are other options though - ER LL, or lead your shots!

Truth be told, the game had devolved into a jump-sniping hide behind the nearest rock and run the same meta (gauss/ppc) s%^$fest. What use are mediums when you cannot brawl? The mechanisms while not in any way perfect (I will reserve my opinion on both the PPC changes and gauss charge), do address a meta/playstyle issue that restricted many brawler builds. That said, does not mean to say that long range sniping is dead, just means that we now have a more diverse range of play styles.

[Dimento Graven]

Christof Romulus, on 19 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Lightfoot, I remember you!

Anyway, here's the deal with the Gauss: The Charge up time does TWO things - very important things:
1. Desynchs it from every weapon in the game - This is INSANELY IMPORTANT because it generates 0 heat and flies very far, and deals 15 points of damage to a single hit location (the second highest natural pinpoint damage in the game).

You're so wrong. The speed of the projectile is what desync's one weapon front another, WHICH IS WHY PPC's were slowed down so much.

Me? I can fire my gauss and at the same I launch it fire my pulse lasers into your face.

Result: Synchronous hit to the face.

Quote

2. MORE IMPORTANTLY it removes the Gauss Rifle as a serious competitor to the AC 20, and all other ballistic weapons - If the delay is removed, then there is absolutely no reason to ever consider the AC 20, which at SIX TIMES THE HEAT and a far slower projectile, and ONE THIRD THE RANGE only deals 33% more damage.

Again, incorrect. The primary reason to bring almost any other AC is you can only load 10 rounds per ton, where other AC weapons have a higher ammo density. The AC20 with it's the extra damage that makes the smaller ammo density worth it.

Quote

Back in beta and shortly after, the Gauss was found on any, and everything that could field it - because it outbrawled every other ballistic weapon in the game, and maintained its power over a much farther distance, and could be added to even the most heat intensive builds at no penalty. Why not increase the damage you deal in an alpha by 15 for 1 heat?

Because the difference between 40 and 30 damage is significant when quite a few mechs could be crited out in only two shots, with AC20's having the faster reload time. Gauss were/are so slow they're the only weapon system in the game slower to reload than the LRM20.

Quote

As for PPCs, Clan PPCs already can get most of their speed back with targeting computers. But I must agree that the current ERPPC is too slow (inner sphere) to make it even a remote possibility of hitting a moving target at 810m.

Targeting computers increase PPC velocity? Really? That I didn't know, but I'll check it out.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 September 2014 - 06:21 PM.

[Mothykins]

MischiefSC, on 21 September 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

Please don't try to tone troll. This isn't a new debate, not a new discussion. These are, none of them, new points or new data. The ppc excels at 200-450m. It's ppfld with no ammo. It's a peak peep-shoot-fade weapon. It is however a ppfld weapon with a ballistic projectile. The gauss had weight, explosions and fragility against it and was still the top tier ballistic (after ppcs) around until charge up made it too cumbersome to use for snapshots.

Range and accuracy trump every other factor. Gauss is still excellent it just lacks synergy. Any change to ppcs to make them more accurate than they are currently will make them the most accurate ppfld weapon you can snap shot and boat with. You would have to gimp cool down or heat or other factors so badly as to make it an utter niche weapon like gauss to not make it so.

We already know what fast ppcs play like. This isn't a fear of change; we have change now. Almost every weapon is viable, including ppcs. This is resistance to efforts to reverse change. We don't need to buff/change ppcs. They work as well as any other ballistic heavyweight now. Saying it should only be a bit op like before that will be totally different this time if we just tweak X isn't fooling anyone.

Ppcs are every bit as fine as any other ballistic weapon.

Except for the same weight and less heat the LPL is better at 200-450 because of the recycle time and hit-scan. Shoot and fade is more or less dead in the current environment, so I don't see how it being useful in a useless scenario is supposed to sway me. Jumpjets are dead, Poptarts are dead, and the PPC is even more dead. I can't even shove it on a K2 to do direct fire support reliably.

That aside, the ERPPC is pretty much the homeless baby then. Too hot and slow to use closer than 500m compared to everything. It is literally the only IS weapon to have higher HPS than DPS, has a higher Nominal range than the Gauss and is more than half as slow. So it's a floaty long range heat spiking piece of crap gun. Pretty much the single most worthless gun ATM, other than the AC2.

I'm pretty sure that none of this matters to you anyways. All you can do is fear the past, not taking into account every other variable that's changed, or even thinking about my suggesting some middle ground. I don't think you're worth talking to at this point in time, so let this be the end of this.

[MischiefSC]

Fear the past? That is like saying someone doesn't want to go halfway back to crappy designs, why not just half crappy?

I get that you want ppcs at least a little op again. I don't. I like them balance - which they are now. I see them used effectively every match, i use them on a lot of builds. They are not peak meta now though. Ppfld isn't peak meta like t used to be. You seem to want that back.

I don't, most don't seem to. That you think is lpls are better than ppcs says plenty. Maybe on a brawler if you have more tonnage than hard points - still, go ppc or ll and Dhs/engine/ 2 mls more anything.