41 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

I think JJ's could do with a little longer burn time, but other than that i like them where they are.

[STEF_]

Hagoromo Gitsune, on 19 September 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

All we need is roll back JJ's nerf but remain that screen shake while jumping. And not allowed to fix that screen shake by any module. Simple as fart.
JJ nerf actually massively affected IS mechs mobiliy.

I would prefer heavy aiming-reticule shake. Screen shake can give headache; better to prevent whiners

[Firemage]

Personally i'm in the camp of making them "Jump" Jets where they just give a big burst that can be used to get some hang time or make scaling a hillside easier, or slow the fall of someone who stepped off a hillside a bit to quickly.

In TT jump jet grant X amount of movement so we need to better convert that to MWO.

[A Man In A Can]

While I agree reticule sway/drift on the way down should be implemented anyway, I just want to say that simply returning jets to their previous state is not the answer. A truly all-inclusive solution needs to be one that gives value to having one jet, but not so much value that it makes no sense to pack more, and like ECM is not so much of a "have this or else" kind of thing that all mechs that can't ever pack jump jets are disrespected.

Personally, I feel the height JJs are normalized at currently is fine-ish. It's the time it takes to jump/acceleration I think is where people are having issues with. So perhaps make each jet class rocket the mech up faster than current levels at a set rate, but how many you mount determines the length of time you can burn.

Something like that I think would be a good middle ground.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

Firemage, on 19 September 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Personally i'm in the camp of making them "Jump" Jets where they just give a big burst that can be used to get some hang time or make scaling a hillside easier, or slow the fall of someone who stepped off a hillside a bit to quickly.

In TT jump jet grant X amount of movement so we need to better convert that to MWO.

NO!

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Just disable all weapons when jumping. Voila. Make maneuvering and evading incoming fire it's sole function.

That and implement DFA.

I felt a great disturbance in the Inner Sphere, as if millions of jump-brawling lights suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

[Mauadib]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 September 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'd rather have jets that jet you so fast and high you can't react as quickly, need to be higher in the air to settle your aim, thus giving your opponents more time to shoot you.

http://youtu.be/GF8uZ4VYRW8?t=1m22s

Totally agree with Lucy here, jets can be fun and simultaneously not terrible (for both the attacker and defender) if done right.

That concept seems nice on paper and in that vid until you realise that MWLL doesn't have leg damage as a thing. Imagine how much damage he just did to his legs with that stunt. Those Boost-Jets don't look nearly as nice with the current leg damage system in place.

Prezimonto, on 19 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't think so at all. Particularly when the force is being applied well off center mass of a large gangling object in mid-air. Add that many of these weapons are already greatly unbalances the mass distribution of the mech when then pack a large percentage of overall mass out on a limb.

That's what majik overpowered Gyros and Neuro Helmets are for. But yea in a perfect game we would have a physics engine that allows for recoil as it is described in the stuff I've read. Having to brace to fire off 2 Gauss rifles because otherwise your machine would just tip backwards would be nice.

Though going that route is kinda like the difference between WoT and WTGF. Both are tank shooters, both are fun. One is an arcade one is doing it's best to not be and both push people away for those reasons. How "realistic" should this game really be?

[Training Instructor]

Prezimonto, on 19 September 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

I don't think so at all. Particularly when the force is being applied well off center mass of a large gangling object in mid-air. Add that many of these weapons are already greatly unbalances the mass distribution of the mech when then pack a large percentage of overall mass out on a limb.

I tried to explain that guns far away from the center of mass and balance cause amplified recoil through simple pendulum physics, in another thread, but people insisted there was no difference between firing a large caliber gun from your hip and firing it from the shoulder, legs unbraced.

What do I know though, I'm a liberal arts grad with a lot of guns.

[ArchMage Sparrowhawk]

what, you guys don't like the "gradual lift jets"?

At full burn with all jump jet slots full, the best I can manage in my Huginn is a 25 degree slow glide. And that's if I get a 130+ kph running start. Sure it might carry me 120 or so meters horizontally, but I can just barely make it over a 2 story building in the attempt. And that's only if I time it perfectly. The rate of climb is horrendous. The only benefit is that it's slightly faster than running.

It's pitiful. There is no more tactical use of jump jets in a fight. You just get your legs blown off while you try to climb.

Something needs to be done for sure.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 19 September 2014 - 09:36 PM.

[zortesh]

Jumpjets need to be a massive kick, you shouldn't stop going up exactly when you remove the jumpjet, screenshake or reticule shake all the way if we must, but what made poptartin so easy and so damage free was the ease of:

Fly to correct height> find target> let go of jumpjet> shoot> drop> repeat.

it should be more akin to.

Press jumpjet and get flung madly into sky>let go of jumpjet> fire as you still fly upwards>take some return fire>get to top of arc and start dropping> land somewhere 50-150 meters away from start position, with leg damage if you don't feather the fall.

You'd jump alot higher and further, poptarting would still be possible but have a higher skill requirement(lets face it it used to be just too damn easy) and be less safe because exposing yourself would be unavoidible unless you had the skill to calculate the arc, and height you need well in advance of letting go of the jumpjet button, as opposed to just letting go and instantly falling to safety like everyone used to.

[Stone Wall]

I left the game awhile ago and came back to read about the changes.This nerf to JJs is funny. Being hit with LRMs/Gauss/ER PPCs/ER L's is standard gameplay that goes back to 1998. If people can't adapt to it or if PGI hasn't added restrictions to loadouts to teams, then that's the explanation for all the nerfs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lefty Lucy, on 19 September 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Which is why jump jets weigh a lot more for heavier mechs.

Exactly. An assault class JJ weighs 4 times that of a light class, it should have 4 times the thrust so 5 JJs on a 90 ton mechs should give at least as much jump as 5 JJs on a 30 ton mech.

[Styxx42]

Gas Guzzler, on 19 September 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Full JJs are fine for everything but the Highlander where you are putting 8-10 tons of JJs and it still lifts like crap.

But I mean lights and mediums with their .5 ton jump jets.. Yeah you should expect to take like 4-6 of em and in that case they work fine. Doesn't make sense to get all the hops in the world with 1-2 jets.

I am one of those players that feels JJ are useless now, which is what it is but it vexes me I can't get rid of them on my Summoners that i spent a good deal of money to prepurcase. When I bought them they were totally different. . LET ME GET RID OF THEM at the very least.

[Prezimonto]

Training Instructor, on 19 September 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:

I tried to explain that guns far away from the center of mass and balance cause amplified recoil through simple pendulum physics, in another thread, but people insisted there was no difference between firing a large caliber gun from your hip and firing it from the shoulder, legs unbraced.

What do I know though, I'm a liberal arts grad with a lot of guns.

I only have a PhD in biophysics and have taught college introductory physics courses. Must not be good enough for understanding statics and dynamics though. How silly of me, that bio in the front of the degree must trump the rest.

[divinedisclaimer]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

Just disable all weapons when jumping. Voila. Make maneuvering and evading incoming fire it's sole function.

That and implement DFA.

Nah just make them really inaccurate while in the air. No reason to lock them out completely, up close it wouldn't be an issue at all anyway.

Either way pop-tarting is a fairly legit tactic that's well-countered by fast and lazy laser hits. I think it's in the gameplay intentionally. Landing a tricky jump shot, especially while under fire, can be difficult.

[El Bandito]

divinedisclaimer, on 20 September 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

Either way pop-tarting is a fairly legit tactic that's well-countered by fast and lazy laser hits. I think it's in the gameplay intentionally. Landing a tricky jump shot, especially while under fire, can be difficult.

Except lasers don't do anything to throw off poptart's aim.

[CocoaJin]

The OP's suggestions are sound, but I'd like to add more.

Make JJs launch you forward at a 30deg angle when facing forward...but require you be looking as far down as the mech can in order to launch straight up. This means vertical jumps require you to take your view off of a would be distant target, but would allow for you to keep eyes on a close quarter brawling range targets for vertical combat maneuvers.

Pilot view/torso elevations would control thrust vectoring for graduate changes in between.

[FireDog]

AssaultPig, on 19 September 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

people have been suggesting the 'shake while falling' change forever and ever. It is/was the easiest, most compartmentalized fix for pop-tarting issues and it never really made sense why PGI didn't implement it.

JJs probably did generally need a bigger opportunity cost though, which the current de facto requirement to fit more of them for the same lift did accomplish

The problem is there is NO WAY to obtain the same lift... the code was changed.

[DieGruneMorder]

Jump Jets are broken and they were one of the best parts about these games!!! Fix them please! Im not going to get negative and slam anyone, but this is a big problem right now.

[kesuga7]

please don't **** over non jumpjet mechs

jumpjets now take more tonnage and are actually a trade off as opposed to the divine 1 ton jetpack that made It superior to any non jj mech instantly