21 replies to this topic

[Christof Romulus]

I'll cut to the chase:

TLWR (Too long, won't read):
Add a 'hover' mechanic after deactivation to jumpjets (duration to be determined later).
Revert all previous jumpjet changes.

Here's the deal - Mechwarrior Online is an interesting take on the franchise because in this game Mechs feel large, bulky and slow. Peeking out of cover, and shooting, or being in a mech with high-mounted hardpoints is a popular thing in this game because of the defensive benefits those tactics grant.

There is little to no difference ideologically between peeking out from behind cover, or jumping up and over it - the difference is mechanical, and that mechanical difference is what got Jump Jets into the state that they are in now, where mechs are barely able to get off of the ground.

So what's the mechanical difference? Speed.

Mechs have to stop moving (decelerate) after they pop out of cover then accelerate to get back under cover. That is to say they have to move forwards and backwards - and even fast mechs do this relatively slowly.

Jump Jetting allows mechs to reach a firing position (Just like popping out of cover) shoot, but then cut the Jets and DRASTICALLY accelerate to the ground - reentering cover far more quickly than exiting, and far more quickly than any mech could if they were just popping out of cover.

And thus I propose the solution that I have in TLWR: After a mech ceases using the jump jets, it will idle at the height that it was at for a moment before beginning descent. Pretend as if the jets are having their throttle being reduced.

With a change like this - ALL PREVIOUS JUMP JET CHANGES AND FALL DAMAGE CAN BE REVERTED. Jenners and other lights can once again fly high in the sky, and highlanders and victors can return to being able to get off the ground again. Griffins have wings - so why doesn't the GRF-1N? Anybody else with me on this? Anyone? No? Darn.

[Edit]

When I say revert all the jump jet changes, I mean REVERT.

Edited by Christof Romulus, 19 September 2014 - 02:25 PM.

[Metus regem]

Well if they gave them the jump jets of the TT, as in they go up about the height of a mech, maybe two, but did distance, you would see things like the summoner be more like they should being able to jump up to 5 hexes (about 150m long and 1 level up). That would be a world of change, that I think would do a world of good in the game.

[iTango]

So how would this fix the jump sniping problem?

[zortesh]

Hovering would be weird, how about keep flying upwards until it loses its momentum?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

What might be nice to consider is a quick and sudden diagonal thrust close to ~3 to 7 meters in height for each individual Jump Jet, that could horizontally push a mech close to ~15 meters forward, where momentum would then carry on in the decreasing height for near ~15 meters forward to the ground, to match closely to original values (One JJ giving 6 meters of height and/or 30 meters of horizontal thrust).

Scaled to weight, taking a Griffin for example; if five JJs are taken, then we might expect ~9 to 12 meters of height, with about ~45 to 60 meters of horizontal distance traversed for example within 5 to 10 seconds of thrust and forward momentum.


Almost like a thrust-assisted Olympic Long Jump!

Edited by Praetor Knight, 19 September 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[Christof Romulus]

Praetor,

I don't have a problem with how jumpjets work as they are - and indeed my point is that the mechanic that allows Jump Jets drastic acceleration (Gravity) is the issue. I am not attempting to suggest that Jump jets allow for drastic acceleration in other directions as well...

Zortesh,

Sure, as long as using the jump jets keeps the user exposed instead of allowing an instantaneous vertical (downward) dodge.

[zortesh]

Christof Romulus, on 19 September 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Praetor,

I don't have a problem with how jumpjets work as they are - and indeed my point is that the mechanic that allows Jump Jets drastic acceleration (Gravity) is the issue. I am not attempting to suggest that Jump jets allow for drastic acceleration in other directions as well...

Zortesh,

Sure, as long as using the jump jets keeps the user exposed instead of allowing an instantaneous vertical (downward) dodge.

Exactly what i meant, as long as theres continued movement upwards after theve let go of the jj's we should be okay, theoretically a extremely good poptart could manage it and get minimal exposure but they'd still be be unable to drop instantly when they wanted which was the problem.

be even better if it was paired with a very big jumpjet buff thou, something to make death from above useable if they ever add collisions back in, and to make it very hard to do a short exposure or to land back behind cover.

Edited by zortesh, 19 September 2014 - 11:57 PM.

[kapusta11]

With proper heatscale JJs woud've never been an issue.

[Christof Romulus]

kapusta11, on 19 September 2014 - 11:58 PM, said:

With proper heatscale JJs woud've never been an issue.

HA! We don't live in that world, though.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Beating that dead horse.

CONVERGENCE.

[Jonny Taco]

Any JJ suggestion should include fixing broken animation loops (resulting in warping hitboxes) when tapping JJ.

[FupDup]

WTB JJs that make you feel AWESOME:

[Christof Romulus]

.

FupDup, on 20 September 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

WTB JJs that make you feel AWESOME:

So what I'm getting at is effectively the apex effect from the jumpjets in those videos, but applied to MWO's jump jets from when they were originally released.

I can't believe that nobody agrees with this...

[MeiSooHaityu]

zortesh, on 19 September 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

Hovering would be weird, how about keep flying upwards until it loses its momentum?

Jump Jets, Mechwarrior 2 style LOL. Mechs in MW2 went up about 3 or 4 mechs high and hovered when the JJs were active. Yea, it did look weird.

[DukeDublin]

How about thrust related to the position of JumpJets?

Leg JJ:
Can direct flight path via leg turn.
Apex determined by throttle. [throttle up goes higher for example]
Speed is a still a factor
Landing would put the mech at full stop to keep balance.

Torso JJ:
Can direct their flight path via torso twist.
Apex determined from JJ angle and speed.
Speed is still a factor.
Landing would allow for legs to maintain momentum.

When JJ's are mixed, force would be calculated from jumpjet number in each area. Two instances of force being applied at the same time.

EXAMPLE
Combo Torso/Leg Ratio->75:25

75% of forward/upwards thrust angle would be directed by torso angle. [Up,Down]
25% of forward/upwards thrust angle would be determined by throttle. [More, Less]

75% of directional thrust would be determined by torso angle [Left, Right]
25% of directional thrust would be determined by leg angle [Left, Right]

75% of speed would be retained on landing.

Then apply any tweaks saw fit from the mech chassi such as:

Pivoting jump jets directed by arms or other means.
Customizing base thrust angles based on mech.
Aerodynamics.

Edited by DukeDublin, 22 September 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Christof Romulus]

DukeDublin, on 22 September 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

How about thrust related to the position of JumpJets?

Leg JJ:
Can direct flight path via leg turn.
Apex determined by throttle. [throttle up goes higher for example]
Speed is a still a factor
Landing would put the mech at full stop to keep balance.

Torso JJ:
Can direct their flight path via torso twist.
Apex determined from JJ angle and speed.
Speed is still a factor.
Landing would allow for legs to maintain momentum.

When JJ's are mixed, force would be calculated from jumpjet number in each area. Two instances of force being applied at the same time.

EXAMPLE
Combo Torso/Leg Ratio->75:25

75% of forward/upwards thrust angle would be directed by torso angle. [Up,Down]
25% of forward/upwards thrust angle would be determined by throttle. [More, Less]

75% of directional thrust would be determined by torso angle [Left, Right]
25% of directional thrust would be determined by leg angle [Left, Right]

75% of speed would be retained on landing.

Then apply any tweaks saw fit from the mech chassi such as:

Pivoting jump jets directed by arms or other means.
Customizing base thrust angles based on mech.
Aerodynamics.

I don't think the system needs to be overly complicated...
I was just attempting to envision a throttle mechanic for the vertical movement of jump jets - otherwise they would function identically to how they did in beta.

Currently, Jump jets are useless. Before now, Jump Jets were overpowered (allowing for quick dodges, albeit straight down, providing a minimal profile of attack for a minimal amount of time).

All I am proposing, which is relatively simple, is to extend the window of time that a mech using Jump Jets would be forced to be vulnerable while simultaneously reverting all changes to inhibit Jump Jet performance - returning to mechs, such as the Jenner, that can basically fly (as demonstrated in the video I posted in my original post).

[Hospy]

Why don't they just put screen shake when jump jets are used (already in) and for a few moments afterwards?

[Brizna]

I think most people were using 1 jumpjet, becuase there was a big base vertical impulse regardless of number of jets, that is gone.
Now with 1 jumpjet you are good to go up step slopes, geting across chasms like in canyon network and cushioning falls which is a huge adavantage, what you don't get is a real JUMP, you just hover or slide upwards in slopes. And you know what? I like that, cheating the system to get most of the gains of jump jets with 0.5-2 tons investment was close to exploit. Instead invest the tons to get max jets and you'll JUMP just as before ... or even more.
I certainly FLY in my Spider-5V, that said I carry 6 tons worth of jets, so why would a Jenner with 0.5T worth of JJs jump almost the same as me??? If they jump that much I want a laser that does the same damage as 6T worth of M las for my 5V.

PS: Spider 5V still sucks, but it's just hillarious to pilot.

Edited by Brizna, 22 September 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Livewyr]

Hospy, on 22 September 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

Why don't they just put screen shake when jump jets are used (already in) and for a few moments afterwards?

Along with making them JUMPjets instead of antigravity drives.

[Wolfways]

I like JJ's as they are, but feel they could do with a slightly longer burn time.