70 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

Something struck me the other day while playing World of Tanks. I'd be playing MW: O right now, but it doesn't seem very stable atm. When it comes to the teams movements at the start of the match, it seems to me that teams gather up to create a murderball in MW: O, while teams in WoT split up to cover different avenues of advance. In both instances, to do otherwise is suicidal to your survivability and chances to win. If you split off from the pack in MW: O, it seems almost 100% certain that you'll run into the enemy murderball and get vaporized in under five seconds. In WoT, if the whole team funnels down one avenue of advance, the team ultimately gets flanked and obliterated.

So... why the difference? Is it map structure, layout and size? Spotting mechanics of the two games? The nature of the weapon systems, rate of fire or armour values? Perhaps it is the availability of arty and airstrikes for every Mech in MechWarrior: Online, although that would tend to dissuade the formation of murderballs, one should think.


A lot of similarities between the two games exist. Artillery in WoT can shoot over terrain features much like the LRMs in MW: O, but they seem to suffer from close contact much more than LRM boats do in MW: O... just easier to kill off, I'd say. Scouts are fast in both games and hard to hit as a general rule.

So, the two tactical styles remain in two different, yet similar games. I think it would be interesting to discuss why the different tactics exist in both games, and why doing otherwise generally leads to defeat.

[PappySmurf]

There is not much difference between WOT and MWO but in MWO you cannot solo fight like in WOT the mechs are just too weak and flimsy. In WOT with even a Churchill I can solo a few smaller tanks but in MWO there are maybe 1-3 total mechs that can take on a group and survive for morethan 30 seconds or even take out 2 mechs before dying.


In MWO I feel like in playing in a paper tiger not a BattleMech .

Edited by PappySmurf, 10 August 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[Felbombling]

That's a damn good point, Pappy.

[Khobai]

Yep the problem with MWO is mechs die too fast. Which makes deathballing the best tactic by far. The result is that the game has very little tactical depth.

[YueFei]

Effective weapon ranges are shorter.

Look at your team's formation, it's probably still shaped like some kind of line, rather than a literal ball.

You'll realize that even if everyone stands 50 meters apart (very very close together), with 12 mechs, the last guys on each side are 600 meters away from each other. That's not even within the maximum Inner Sphere Medium Laser's range. If the guy on the left side comes under fire, even from enemies at point-blank range, the guy on the right side can barely help him or support him at all.

And that's with an entire team sticking together but trying to present a broad front of firepower.

Anyone trying to stray farther away than that, not only risks not having their teammates *not* within range and with angles to support them, they also risk moving themselves into a position from which they cannot support the rest of their team.

Guys with long-range weapons can often be a bit farther out, working on getting angles from a variety of places, still able to support their teammates. But not everyone plays mechs with long range weapons. If I take my Hunchback and move even 300 meters away from any teammates, I'm not in position to help any of them at all. I essentially make my team down 1 man, at least temporarily.

So sometimes you end up, by luck, with a friendly team composition of mostly brawlers and short range dudes, and then it becomes especially comical if you drop on Canyon and almost nobody has jump jets. Everyone crowds arounds, trips over each other, can't navigate the map easily, can't setup effective cross-fires, and probably gets artillery struck into oblivion.

Edited by YueFei, 10 August 2014 - 07:21 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

ECM is the reason. Plain and simple.

[Bulvar Jorgensson]

Stagger, you have hit the nail on the head.

MWO needs something done to it to allow for a more fluid play (other than Group up and American Football your way round the map, till you out-number the enemy and Stomp-em)

Pappy you too, have stated a fact that somehow seems to be missed by the games developers, we do not want over powered mechs that take 5 minutes to nuke down (anyone who has played an MMO, knows this is so boring after a while) but we do want mechs that can take a hit or 20 and not Die.
By all means programme in a Fluke Crit hit that takes out my weapon system or locks my Arm/arms in place, but having my shoulder mount take 45 points of pinpoint damage before it Cripples my mech (which can be 2 or 3 well aimed shots) seems to weak by far.

Either armour limits need raised again (with a reduction in weight per point o armour).
or
Weapon damage Across the spectrum of weapons needs reduced. (this allows the armour to remain as is, but allows a mech to survive for longer)
or
Making hit boxes bounce damage around an area rather than pin-pointing it (much like the Clan Lasers have to build up to their damage)

Mechs by far are to squishy in this game for what they are, the only mech that seems to survive better than it should seems to be the spider mech (heck I have watch one of these mechs chew through 3 assaults in one match)

[Gigastrike]

PappySmurf, on 10 August 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

There is not much difference between WOT and MWO but in MWO you cannot solo fight like in WOT the mechs are just too weak and flimsy. In WOT with even a Churchill I can solo a few smaller tanks but in MWO there are maybe 1-3 total mechs that can take on a group and survive for morethan 30 seconds or even take out 2 mechs before dying.


In MWO I feel like in playing in a paper tiger not a BattleMech .

Probably exactly this. Flanking attempts only work if the holding force lasts long enough for the flanking force to arrive.

[PappySmurf]

I was trying to play scout in MWO like I used to in MechWarrior4 but it does not work in MWO very well even in a fast light or medium the mechs are to weak the maps to small and once a enemy finds you a whole death ball is on its way and 1-2 well placed shots and your crippled or dead. So like YUE and others have said there really is no options but to stay with your own death ball and try to overpower the enemy team.

In MEchWarrior2-4 the mechs were tougher and more agile so you could evade incoming fire and evade enemy mechs as a scout or solo fighter.I remember a league game where I was the last player against 6 enemy mechs it was a medium battle only and I was able to take out 5 mechs before the last enemy killed me just using tactics and skill and im just a average player.

MWO offers nothing like the older PC CD MechWarrior games had to offer as far as meta choices tactical choices or just plain fun as in social and league play dam I miss playing MechWarrior.MWO is such a shallow MechWarrior experience I can understand why new players just install then bail on the game.

P.S A few of my primary scouts mechs

Edited by PappySmurf, 10 August 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Scratx]

Another reason that relates is actually tied to basic game mechanics. In WoT every tank has armor that can outright prevent a hit from doing any damage whatsoever, depending on the incoming shell type, angle of impact, distance from the point of firing and which armor plate it hit.

It's quite possible for a single heavy tank to block off half a dozen tanks from advancing just by being in a favorable position that allows him to expose only the strongest part of the tank to shoot. Look at many of the american heavy tanks, or for example the Tiger II and E-75 with the upgraded turrets and having a hard to flank position that covers their lower glacis plates. Good luck penetrating very strong sloped armor...

Now try doing that in MWO, where any hit will damage you, no matter how little. Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Bishop Steiner]

StaggerCheck, on 10 August 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

That's a damn good point, Pappy.

if mechs died much slower in MWO, I'd get bored real quick, just like i did in WoT. Once the shells start connecting, how long do tanks last IRL? If the shell is sufficient to penetrate? 1-2 hits, DONE.

[Blood Officer 006]

StaggerCheck, on 10 August 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

OP

Neither the murderball or the split up and cover approach is the best option in MWO. Mutually supporting positions that move together (adjust positions in a mutually supporting manner) is the best approach. Sometimes, a murder ball is similar to this, but usually not. It becomes a bunch of mechs milling around, unable to gain clear shots because everyone is getting in each other's way.

Having clear lanes to fire down, while not getting so far from your team that you cannot support each other is key. Avoiding self-separation by terrain is key. Putting multiple shooters on the same targets in isolated lanes is key.

[Bulvar Jorgensson]

Bishop Steiner that seems to be a Quick fail....Oh restart kind of attitude.

Mechs should be designed to take a pounding and keep on fighting, not fall over after the first exchange in a battle.

How many times have we seen a mech get his CT Chewed and have the crit warning lashing like a stop me and buy one sign within 2 minutes of a game starting (due to these wonderful drop points we have). Then have that very same mech if it survives turn tail and go power down facing a hill in the bottom corner of a map to either piss players off or protect a K/D meaningless ratio.

This is not RL tank warfare, it is a game based on HUGE stomping robots having the fire power to destroy conventional armies, fighting it out on futuristic battlefields...........So yes they should last longer than getting Hit 3 times in the RT.

[Devayner]

While i havent played WOT Ive often thought the speed of assult mechs in general is a bit slow in translation.They have the firepower to do the job but the speed over all including turn and twist,make it so the heavy and medium HAVE to assist the heavest units otherwise a light can wipe the floor with a 100 ton mech.At the bottom end 48 kph is just to slow to be competive solo and even to slow to keep up with a death ball. on a rough average all the othwer mechs run what ? 78-125.

IMO I think the heaver assults need a boost on speed across the board, a 8- 10 kph. Just enuff to help keep them in the fight when they have to reposition but not enuff to make them super mobile.

They should be slower and need the support of the others.I like that about mechwarrior in general but not to the degree that i can walk around one with no fear in a jenner.

[Lefty Lucy]

Blood Officer 006, on 10 August 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

Neither the murderball or the split up and cover approach is the best option in MWO. Mutually supporting positions that move together (adjust positions in a mutually supporting manner) is the best approach. Sometimes, a murder ball is similar to this, but usually not. It becomes a bunch of mechs milling around, unable to gain clear shots because everyone is getting in each other's way.

Having clear lanes to fire down, while not getting so far from your team that you cannot support each other is key. Avoiding self-separation by terrain is key. Putting multiple shooters on the same targets in isolated lanes is key.

The murderball is what you have to do in PUG play because you cannot effectively communicate more advanced tactics, and you're not guaranteed anyone is set up to do covering fire well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bulvar Jorgensson, on 10 August 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Bishop Steiner that seems to be a Quick fail....Oh restart kind of attitude.

Mechs should be designed to take a pounding and keep on fighting, not fall over after the first exchange in a battle.

How many times have we seen a mech get his CT Chewed and have the crit warning lashing like a stop me and buy one sign within 2 minutes of a game starting (due to these wonderful drop points we have). Then have that very same mech if it survives turn tail and go power down facing a hill in the bottom corner of a map to either piss players off or protect a K/D meaningless ratio.

This is not RL tank warfare, it is a game based on HUGE stomping robots having the fire power to destroy conventional armies, fighting it out on futuristic battlefields...........So yes they should last longer than getting Hit 3 times in the RT.

*yawn*

Coolstory bro. Tell you what, lets remove everything but the small laser, then make different ranges for the small laser, based on weight, limit each mech to about 4 hardpoints, and let you papercut warrior to your hearts content.

You get focused, you over extend, or you don't know how to twist your mech. You die fast. YOU SHOULD. You get caught standing around like a derp in a Light Mech and catch a massive alpha in the back? YOU SHOULD DIE. OUr weapons are already doing HALF what they are supposed to. in TT, ANY MECH could die instantly to a single Gauss or AC20 to the head. Most Mechs under 70 tons take that to their rear torso, they were dead or seriously crippled.

The ILLUSION of mechs lasting forever in Battletech is fostered by the fiction, and the fact that it took an HOUR to complete 4 turns on average, which actually represented FORTY SECONDS OF COMBAT. And in any of the situations I descriped at the outset most mechs didn't last 2 turns of fire, and even the >Atlas was down in 3-4 tops.

Use situational awareness, use cover well, pick your shots and attacks, twist, etc, mechs can last a dang long time.

I've spent the weekend running my stock Summoner Prime, with the armor of a Medium Mech, nerfed JJs and PPC and a whopping 15 shots for my LB-X. And I never "hid in cover" but was moving all over the battlefield, using cover to shield my movement when possible, twisting the rest, and was almost always one of the last to finally die, despite drawing tons of enemy fire, and averaging a low 350 damage per match, but usually getting a couple kills in, and unless it turned into a roll, most times was still fighting, 10-12 minutes into the match.

Thats plenty long enough. Yeah, I got killed fast on a few matches. Lucky shot, good tactics on the other team, bad choice by me. But that was about 1 time in 5.

Most people die fast because either they make bad decisions, and get over extended and focused, (or wolfpack swarmed in a big fat assault) or because their team falls apart and the whole team gets rolled. When people play with any remote degree of competence or cohesion, nice long matches occur. So maybe the TTK problem is not so much the mechs, as the players. (Though perfect convergence DOES need to be nerfed)

[Chagatay]

People say deathball but what you kinda want is a pacman sort of motion where you are gobbling up people like dots. You want to be in a firing line that is moving not a stationery ball waiting to be nibbled.

Edited by Chagatay, 10 August 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[DaZur]

True battlefield tactics fail at all levels because PGI doesn't make them important or impactful... In short MW:O is too flipping shallow and the battlefields too small and or divisive to allow for viable tactics to be applied.

Right now the flank maneuver and the rabbit with a following flank are the only two that really work with any consistency.

[PappySmurf]

Devayner

[Assaults should be slower and need the support of the others.I like that about mechwarrior in general but not to the degree that i can walk around one with no fear in a jenner. ]

There was a time mechwarrior2-4 when you played a light or medium as a scout or flanker you feared most assaults they were twice as agile as MWO assaults are not in overall speed but torso twist and maneuverability and you shitt your pants when you got caught coming around a building corner or hill and stood face to face with a assault mech knowing there was no place to run and no place to hide.It was always a good battle the mechs overall were x10 tougher than MWO mechs but you knew you were going to die.

Edited by PappySmurf, 10 August 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Zyllos]

I think the obvious reasons why mechs feel like paper is due to the amount of damage players can easily land on single locations. Also, this makes lighter mechs feel like nothing, if you get hit, you lose that section.