279 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

SaltBeef, on 25 September 2014 - 07:15 PM, said:

Wrong! I have never anywhere!! Seen any text that says the engine is locked. Only In fixed internal section is items locked Yes adder has locked flamer yes Koshi has locked active probe yes!, IS avatar omni mech has locked Medium lasers but never anywhere does it state in text engines are locked NOWHERE! If I am wrong please POST IT for all here to see.

Boy, that was easy:

http://www.sarna.net...h#Disadvantages

Quote

Despite their benefits in flexibility and maintenance, OmniMechs have distinct limitations in regard to cost and logistics. OmniMechs are not fully modular. An OmniMech's structural components (its engine, internal structure, armor and any equipment installed on the base chassis of OmniMech) are "hard-wired" and cannot be modified outside of a total redesign of the 'Mech.

[SaltBeef]

Yeah pretty new never heard of that tech manual that was published in 2007! Was not stated before 2007! No wonder nobody knows about that limitation it is a recent creation.

www.sarna.net/wiki/TechManual

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 September 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[Hoax415]

SaltBeef, on 25 September 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yeah pretty new never heard of that tech manual that was published in 2007! Was not stated before 2007! No wonder nobody knows about that limitation it is a recent creation.

www.sarna.net/wiki/TechManual

This is the type of person you all are arguing with. Slow clap for Mr. Beef, he never lets logic or reality get in his way.

[IraqiWalker]

SaltBeef, on 25 September 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yeah pretty new never heard of that tech manual that was published in 2007! Was not stated before 2007! No wonder nobody knows about that limitation it is a recent creation.

www.sarna.net/wiki/TechManual

It was 7 years ago. Almost 8. That's not new.

[Icewraith]

"Customizing is the practice of installing non-factory replacement parts in a 'Mech or vehicle to improve or modify the unit's performance.

Omnimechs are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omnimech chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor, and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures.

[specific rules, etc]"

Maximum Tech, page 62.

[FupDup]

Icewraith, on 25 September 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

"Customizing is the practice of installing non-factory replacement parts in a 'Mech or vehicle to improve or modify the unit's performance.

Omnimechs are designed to use interchangeable modular pods, so they are rarely customized. However, even Omnimech chassis contain certain integral components, such as engines, armor, and fixed weapons. These items are not installed in modular pods, so they must be replaced with customizing procedures.

[specific rules, etc]"

Maximum Tech, page 62.

That same entry also appears in Strategic Operations (I forgot the page number).

[Icewraith]

Yep, the fixed equipment thing in omnis is way outside of normal rules if the IS has access to massive customization (unless swapping out a medium laser for a pulse laser makes your mech unusable for two weeks). Even if you object to changing chassis/armor type (you can't exactly run down to the supply depot and pick up an endo steel chassis upgrade that nobody ever made, although you could argue that you could have gotten your hands on a prototype or early production run of the mech), you should at least be able to move crits around and un-fix heat sinks and crappy equipment like flamers. You should also be able to put JJ on anything, but that's a whole other battle.

Also? You shouldn't NOT be able to take a Targeting Computer on a Warhawk under the current scheme. Even though the size and weight changes according to the direct fire weapons loadout in the configurations, the basic Targeting Computer is built into the mech.

The hardpoint system I don't mind since the IS is also saddled with it and there really weren't a whole lot of options that wouldn't result in all mechs immediately converging to similar weapon loadouts. Also, this way the mechs LOOK right. But the unremovable fixed equipment? Totally unnecessary.

(Good to know it's still in the rules!)

[SaltBeef]

New for me!! It is way older than the last MechWarrior 4 game and MW4 Mercs. I have a BT board game but not been playing TT for way longer than that 2007. This is was new to me during a time I was occupied with other things than BT.


Hoax I take that as a immature snarky personal attack than a debate. That tech maunal is pretty new to the BT universe. Especially in a time period of 10yrs between games.

Was never implemented before 2007 in the games so it is New!

No different than if someone took control of the star trek franchise and changed the Federation to Klingons.

www.sarna.net/wiki/Strategic_Operations

2009.

Edited by SaltBeef, 25 September 2014 - 10:45 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

SaltBeef, on 25 September 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

New for me!! It is way older than the last MechWarrior 4 game and MW4 Mercs. I have a BT board game but not been playing TT for way longer than that 2007. This is was new to me during a time I was occupied with other things than BT.


Hoax I take that as a immature snarky personal attack than a debate. That tech maunal is pretty new to the BT universe. Especially in a time period of 10yrs between games.

Was never implemented before 2007 in the games so it New!

No different than if someone took control of the star trek franchise and changed the Federation to Klingons.

www.sarna.net/wiki/Strategic_Operations

2009.

Actually very different. The fans in all cases would notice. Usually following the publications is easy. I haven't played WHFB in over 10 years, but I know what edition they are on now, and what that idiot Ward did with the second to last one.

the last MW video game until MW:O and MW:Tactics popped up was MW4, and that was way older than 2007.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 25 September 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[SaltBeef]

I have not been keeping up with the BT board game rules! I am Just going off what I remember since playing microsofts last title and all the games prior. I do not like new rules from the new 2007 management. INMHO. Maybe the COD generation will like it more. Gonna take a lot of getting used to for tis OLD dog!

Edited by SaltBeef, 26 September 2014 - 06:40 AM.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

Boy, that was easy:

http://www.sarna.net...h#Disadvantages

That seems a pretty flimsy reason.

All it says is that they aren't modular, which is like the omni-pods.



Here's extrapolation on what modular means:

Quote

OmniMechs mount some (or all) of their loadout in modular OmniMech-compatible OmniPods. This gives Omnis the ability to replace damaged components and change battlefield role to fulfill mission requirements.

Based on the modular replacement system of the Mercury BattleMech …The … technology provided far more flexibility than the famous ease of replacement of the Mercury's semi-modular Hessen IX Small Lasers[1]. …the technology to allow complete quick reconfiguration of the weapon systems and certain structural components. OmniMech customization and repair required as little as 30 minutes for all of the Pod-mounted components in an entire location, a very small fraction of the time required for an equivalent modification or repair for conventional BattleMechs.

Then there is this:

Quote

While the weight savings for Endo Steel are greater than those saved by Ferro-Fibrous armor, its use is hampered by the extremely low number of orbital factories in existence, significantly driving up costs due to low availability. Further, as it makes up the skeleton of a 'Mech, adding it to existing 'Mechs generally requires lengthy factory level refits, and in general makes field repair more difficult than standard skeletons.

So as far as I'm concerned the ruling in this game on engines and heat sinks is completely arbitrary, since it's pretty clear not everyone is sending their mechs into orbit to get Endo steel.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 September 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Just came back after a long break. I cant say I'm surprised everything I drove got nerfbatted while i was away, saw this coming loooong ago.

I wonder whats gonna happen when the King crab gets here? How long before they nerf IS Ac20s again guys? LOL

[Dagorlad13]

xXBagheeraXx, on 25 September 2014 - 11:04 PM, said:

Just came back after a long break. I cant say I'm surprised everything I drove got nerfbatted while i was away, saw this coming loooong ago.

I wonder whats gonna happen when the King crab gets here? How long before they nerf IS Ac20s again guys? LOL

IS AC20s generate ridiculous amounts of heat, much like many of the clan weapons. People who can't be bothered to learn how to play, whine and cry and the devs change weapons to make them stop, much like a poor parent with a spoiled child.

[Molossian Dog]

@Ultimatum X

I think we have to start from the beginning to make sure you realize what we are discussing here:

What we are discussing is
a ) Is IS or Clan Tech better?
b ) Is the advantage so big that it can be considered OP?

The question is not how to make clan tech even more better.

And what we are also not doing:

I´ll make some very specific restrictions and if my own restrictions aren´t met then im right in everything I say and you´re wrong.

If we would do the second, then I´d have some hairebrained "challanges" myself. I can be lenient and do not even need so many restrictions as you do:
- Make an IS light with a Gauss rifle that doesn´t suck! Challaeinge!
- Make an IS 100 tonner with dual gauss and 8 lazors!

What? You can´t? Well by your logic that results in a factual OP-ness of all things clan. /thread

-----------------

Yes there are specific Clan Mechs that can´t do the dual gauss as well as others. So what? That puts them in one corner with ...what? ... about 80% of all IS Mechs? How has this any impact on the original question: Clan OP or not?

You may have to use all the other weapons which weight less, have more range and damage on your Summoner. Tough cookies.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Another fun fact. You didn´t answer to my question. You dodged it when you jumped to the whole challange idea.

You left the impression that having heat capacity, tons and crits to spare to add more weapons in addition to two gauss is bad.

Let me remind you: ""Lighter" CGAUSS is irrelevant for Dual Gauss loadouts when you already have tonnage dedicated to things on your mech that have ZERO benefit for Dual Gauss."

So let me ask again:
You are keeping the idea alive that having DHS to spare and tons/crits for weapons in addition to dual gauss is bad?

Because it has ZERO benefit to dual gauss?

Edited by Molossian Dog, 26 September 2014 - 04:13 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

That seems a pretty flimsy reason.

All it says is that they aren't modular, which is like the omni-pods.



Here's extrapolation on what modular means:





Then there is this:






So as far as I'm concerned the ruling in this game on engines and heat sinks is completely arbitrary, since it's pretty clear not everyone is sending their mechs into orbit to get Endo steel.

What does one have to do with the other, and did you actually read the description? It's not arbitrary. The engines cannot be made in pod form, and so must be hardwired into the structure, and the core of the mech. Which means that clan mechs can't change those hardwired set ups. Since the whole shtick of the pod system is that they can move these modules around. Engines end up being locked in place, along with a few other non-modular things, and they can't be moved around.

They actually gave you a logical explanation for why it happens.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 26 September 2014 - 01:27 AM.

[SaltBeef]

A M1 abrams tank has a modular turbine engine that can be removed in less than a hr by a competent crew of mechanics. But a Mech cannot quickly remove the engine modularly. I could understand if they were fission! But MWO engines are Fusion just hooked up by power cables.

Edited by SaltBeef, 26 September 2014 - 01:45 AM.

[Molossian Dog]

Are you bringing real world logic into a game where 15m tall robots are the main combat units?

[SaltBeef]

This is true. I do believe someday there will be 15 meter tall man hunters but they will be automated Military units. There will not be a man on the modern battle field in 20 yrs... Robbie the robot will dominate it.



http://www.liveleak....=b52_1411601207

Edited by SaltBeef, 26 September 2014 - 06:41 AM.

[Bobzilla]

All of the balancing now means nothing. When CW is in full swing and one side is dominating then further adjustments will be made. Apparently no matter what happens no side will ever be able to be better.

The current balancing of this game punishes the better players in a winning faction. This elimminates any reason for faction warfare so only individual and team play has any merit regardless of faction. Which would be fine if results of CW weren't based on faction performance.

Any CW will have to be based on teams not factions or stop balancing based around the thought that winning means that side needs a nerf.

All of this is useless until CW has been up and running for months to get a good idea where balance is

[Lily from animove]

SaltBeef, on 26 September 2014 - 02:11 AM, said:

This is true. I do believe someday there will be 15 meter tall man hunters but they will be automated Military units. Thee will not be a man on the modern battle field in 20 yrs... Robbie the robot will dominate it.



http://www.liveleak....=b52_1411601207

making a manhunter serveral times the size of a human is mostlikely going to fail in its purpose, because every hiddne hideout with solid structure and small entrances will be unaccessable for him. Thats like trying to train an elephant for hunting moles.