26 replies to this topic

[Jonny Taco]

Anyone else feel that the IS medium laser should have their nerf cut in half?

[Mcgral18]

It should be down to 3 heat.

Small laser is still at 200% heat.


Every small and medium laser in the game has an inflated heat value.

[EvilCow]

3 heat for the ML and 1 heat for the SL, before adding quirks related to heat.

Please?

[Cerlin]

This sounds fair to me. Decreasing the heat gives the is mediums extra advantage they sorely need. Clan have range and damage. Is would have heat efficiency and beam duration.

[kapusta11]

Whatever, can't boat 6+ on IS mechs like you do with Clans anyways.

[Blood Rose]

kapusta11, on 21 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Whatever, can't boat 6+ on IS mechs like you do with Clans anyways.

Cant do that with Clans either. Have you tried a Nova Prime? Hell, infact they generate even more heat then an IS Medium Laser.
The problem is with Ghost Heat.
It was intended to hit the larger weapons like PPC's but instead it hit the smaller, already under powered weapons like the Medium Lasers.

[Glythe]

Nova runs 12 small lasers just fine with MG.


I think the answer to the problem is increasing non-engine Double heat sinks for IS mechs from 1.4 to 1.7 each.

You still have problems using XL engines. Clan mechs still get more free engine DHS. Clan mechs have on average more weapons (get to cheat ghost heat); those weapons also have much better range.

[Mcgral18]

Glythe, on 21 September 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Nova runs 12 small lasers just fine with MG.


I think the answer to the problem is increasing non-engine Double heat sinks for IS mechs from 1.4 to 1.7 each.

You still have problems using XL engines. Clan mechs still get more free engine DHS. Clan mechs have on average more weapons (get to cheat ghost heat); those weapons also have much better range.

Clans don't get more engine DHS. You can't get more than 10. That's the max.

All heatsinks stored in the engine are 1.4s.


Besides, when you have 17 or fewer DHS, you do have true 2.0 dissipation per DHS with the 15% cooling bonus from 2x pilot efficiencies.

[kapusta11]

Blood Rose, on 21 September 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

Cant do that with Clans either. Have you tried a Nova Prime? Hell, infact they generate even more heat then an IS Medium Laser.
The problem is with Ghost Heat.
It was intended to hit the larger weapons like PPC's but instead it hit the smaller, already under powered weapons like the Medium Lasers.

What? You can easily get 6+ energy hardpoints on almost any clan mech. And you can't compare IS ML to clan ones, 4xCERML = 3xISLL for 4 ton with the same range and heat.

[FupDup]

Why do people insist on running 12 ERSL + 4 MGs on the Nova anyways? It's an 89.1 kph mech that cannot defend itself in any way if the target is more than 300 meters away (barely longer than SRM range) and has fairly mediocre hitboxes that can make it squishy during a brawl.

[Wintersdark]

kapusta11, on 21 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

Whatever, can't boat 6+ on IS mechs like you do with Clans anyways.

What? The BLR-1G, HBK-4P, and several others would like to have a word with you.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 21 September 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

What? The BLR-1G, HBK-4P, and several others would like to have a word with you.

Add the Sparky Griffin to that list.

The Shadow Hawk 2K doesn't have the raw hardpoint count for 6 energy, but it can keep 3 ERLL pretty heat efficient while running over 100 kph (build here: SHD-2K ERLL Troll).

Edited by FupDup, 21 September 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 21 September 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Why do people insist on running 12 ERSL + 4 MGs on the Nova anyways? It's an 89.1 kph mech that cannot defend itself in any way if the target is more than 300 meters away (barely longer than SRM range) and has fairly mediocre hitboxes that can make it squishy during a brawl.

After the ERSL nerf, it's just bad. Before the nerf, though? 5 damage, 2 heat, 180m range? You could fire all 12 ERSL's 60 damage, and you could alpha them three times in a row, ghost heat be damned. TC and range would push that to 200m.

Now, even then, it has the problems you mentioned, so dropping two ERSL's for two ERLL's and ditching the TC gave you acceptable long range firepower and a rather lethal ~73pt alpha (and you could alpha twice without overheating)

ERSL's where very potent, if limited weapons... but now they're just fairly crappy small weapons.

Nova's, even pre nerf, where still not really competitive chassis, and they're much worse now. Lack of FF and ES, fixed 2.5 tons in JJ's, wide chassis, really low slung arms, etc. It's a FUN chassis, but not a particularly good one.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 21 September 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

After the ERSL nerf, it's just bad. Before the nerf, though? 5 damage, 2 heat, 180m range? You could fire all 12 ERSL's 60 damage, and you could alpha them three times in a row, ghost heat be damned. TC and range would push that to 200m.

Now, even then, it has the problems you mentioned, so dropping two ERSL's for two ERLL's and ditching the TC gave you acceptable long range firepower and a rather lethal ~73pt alpha (and you could alpha twice without overheating)

ERSL's where very potent, if limited weapons... but now they're just fairly crappy small weapons.

Nova's, even pre nerf, where still not really competitive chassis, and they're much worse now. Lack of FF and ES, fixed 2.5 tons in JJ's, wide chassis, really low slung arms, etc. It's a FUN chassis, but not a particularly good one.

The pre-nerf 180m range was still pretty short. It was (and still is) a one-trick pony similar to Splatcats and Jagerbombs...if they get within their comfort zone you'll have issues, but keep them out of their niche zone (or at least bang them up a bit before they get in close) and they tend to have a bad time. I just don't get why people are/were so afraid of that build. It has a specific strength, and specific weaknesses...

The ERML/ERLL boats are the ones I have more caution around, because they hit from a lot further away and are hard to out-range.

[Lefty Lucy]

Mcgral18, on 21 September 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

It should be down to 3 heat.

Small laser is still at 200% heat.


Every small and medium laser in the game has an inflated heat value.

The reason why IS lasers should be put back to 1/3 heat for small/medium respectively is because of game balance, not canon values.

[FupDup]

Lefty Lucy, on 21 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

The reason why IS lasers should be put back to 1/3 heat for small/medium respectively is because of game balance, not canon values.

Fair enough.

Also, SPL and MPL could use the nudge down as well.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 21 September 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

Add the Sparky Griffin to that list.

The Shadow Hawk 2K doesn't have the raw hardpoint count for 6 energy, but it can keep 3 ERLL pretty heat efficient while running over 100 kph (build here: SHD-2K ERLL Troll).

And: LCT-1E, FS9-A -H -K and -S, JR7-F, CDA-2A, BJ-1DC -1X and -3, HBK-4J, QKD-5K, JESTER, FIREBRAND, TDR-5SS and 9S, AWS-8Q and -9M, BLR-3M -3S and HELLSINGER, STK-3F -4N and 5S, BNC-3M and -3S, and of course the BOAR'S HEAD.


There are LOTS of IS mechs capable of sporting 6+ small energy weapons. Having them at stock heat would go a LONG WAY to balancing IS chassis. Also note that most(!) of the above are also considered poorer chassis overall, so it'd help a lot in balancing them too.

Lefty Lucy, on 21 September 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

The reason why IS lasers should be put back to 1/3 heat for small/medium respectively is because of game balance, not canon values.

Yup. As shown in the list, the majority of poor IS mechs are also the IS mechs which rely on multiple small energy weapons. This change would really help raise their competitiveness.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 21 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

And: LCT-1E, FS9-A -H -K and -S, JR7-F, CDA-2A, BJ-1DC -1X and -3, HBK-4J, QKD-5K, JESTER, FIREBRAND, TDR-5SS and 9S, AWS-8Q and -9M, BLR-3M -3S and HELLSINGER, STK-3F -4N and 5S, BNC-3M and -3S, and of course the BOAR'S HEAD.


There are LOTS of IS mechs capable of sporting 6+ small energy weapons. Having them at stock heat would go a LONG WAY to balancing IS chassis. Also note that most(!) of the above are also considered poorer chassis overall, so it'd help a lot in balancing them too.

Not just small energy, some mix large + small (i.e. Sparky can run 2 LL + 4 ML reasonably well most of the time).

My Sparky would love 3 heat MLas.

[MisterPlanetarian]

I'd want Is mediums at 3 heat and smalls at 1.5 heat. Given the clans rediculous damage and range advantage this is a fair tradeoff.

[FupDup]

MisterPlanetarian, on 21 September 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

I'd want Is mediums at 3 heat and smalls at 1.5 heat. Given the clans rediculous damage and range advantage this is a fair tradeoff.

Why 1.5 heat for Smalls? Even if we cut them down to 0.5 they probably wouldn't be all that great.

Edited by FupDup, 21 September 2014 - 09:29 AM.