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Discussion Of A Withdraw Option For Mwo [Russ' Match Quality Side Talk]


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#41 Mystere

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:05 AM

View Post1453 R, on 22 September 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Also: I’m not suggesting that a withdraw’s ‘Mech unlocks any sooner than it naturally would. Obviously it’d still wait until the game was done, but the pilot would be able to bail on a match he has no business being in anymore and move on with another machine, same as now. Just with what he’s already done intact and without a “report to GMs” option being levied against him.


I wouldn't worry about being reported. Being banned depends on establishing a pattern and that you are indeed at fault. I'm sure if the GMs contact you about it, telling them you can't stand the crap being spewed is enough to absolve you.

Heck, I am sure nitwits have reported some/most of my "Banzai!" charges in which I died alone. What really really bugs me though is I am also sure those same nitwits did not report me if my charge resulted in the enemy's defeat. Nitwits will always be nitwits.

#42 terrycloth

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:05 AM

Have a surrender vote option. If it succeeds, then the surviving mechs have to return to their spawn point (which should be marked on their HUD somehow) and get a small bonus over the normal loss results if they make it there alive.

#43 Willard Phule

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 10:39 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 22 September 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

I feel your pain. I do really. But Withdrawal in CBT is a Mech Death Sentence except when it is part of the scenario rules.

Exiting the map Intentionally or not Destroys the exiting Mech.

The Exceptions:
Units having a Flanking Special Perk, or the Scenario calls for allowing any Mech on Team A (and sometimes B ) to retreat under "X" conditions, usually 75% casualties, or 50% personal damage. NOTE: You are NOT guaranteed safe passage in either case.

So Retreat should be an option, but it should not be a "Exit the game Free" option.



Don't forget "off map movement" as well. Some units have that ability.

#44 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:09 AM

View PostWillard Phule, on 22 September 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:



Don't forget "off map movement" as well. Some units have that ability.

That was one of the Exception Will. ;)

#45 Gyrok

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:14 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 September 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:



then just be sure to never complain about wait times to get a match, my friend.

Also.... Skirmish is training wheels for MWO! :P


I have never complained about match times, waiting or any of that.

I prefer skirmish because it is more dynamic, once you reach a certain level of play, then the game basically revolves around 1 or 2 points on cap based maps. The fight always occurs at one of perhaps 2 locations, and it is boring. Skirmish, you can take the fight to parts of the map many players do not even know exists and make the match interesting.

That is why I hate the predictable conquest and assault.

#46 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 11:23 AM

View PostGyrok, on 22 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:


I have never complained about match times, waiting or any of that.

I prefer skirmish because it is more dynamic, once you reach a certain level of play, then the game basically revolves around 1 or 2 points on cap based maps. The fight always occurs at one of perhaps 2 locations, and it is boring. Skirmish, you can take the fight to parts of the map many players do not even know exists and make the match interesting.

That is why I hate the predictable conquest and assault.

and yet...... 90% of all skirmishes happen...in 1-2 places per map.

Whereas at least with conquest there are 5 derp rings to choose from.

And other tactical considerations beyond twitch shooting...like not getting capped in the process. ;)

#47 NeoCodex

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:24 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 September 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

and yet...... 90% of all skirmishes happen...in 1-2 places per map.

Whereas at least with conquest there are 5 derp rings to choose from.

And other tactical considerations beyond twitch shooting...like not getting capped in the process. ;)


Not always. Well, at least much less than the 90%. From what I've played with Gyrok's squad, we often took the battle to new, interesting locations on the map, where in a 1000 games I've never fought before that day (obviously you can't do that on all maps but you can do it on some larger ones, for sure you won't see us fighting on Alpine's hill). While in objective game modes, you are pretty much guaranteed 100% on some maps and maybe you have 2 possibilities on others.

I see where he's making the point, it's just that it doesn't happen often that somebody takes the fight to a new location, that's where the group "skirmish is boring" comes in, cause you don't see many of those advanced skirmishers that take the battle to the new level, and new grounds. It really is the objectives that tie you in certain spots, while in skirmish nothing keeps you from making your own unique tactics (as long as you have a complete team fully comitted and following the orders), but as I said, this very rarely happens so you can't really understand until you see it or try it. I am however still at that point where I didnt' get bored of any of that, all game modes make interesting challenge and twist for me, objectives or not, at least it's not always the same.

Edited by NeoCodex, 22 September 2014 - 02:28 PM.


#48 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:32 PM

https://mwomercs.com...//img/heatmaps/

#49 NeoCodex

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:33 PM

Now if heatmaps would seperate per game mode, that would be something to see.

#50 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:36 PM

View PostNeoCodex, on 22 September 2014 - 02:33 PM, said:

Now if heatmaps would seperate per game mode, that would be something to see.

skirmish is pretty far and away the most commonly played mode. So if they are that drawn it, it would go to reason that Skirmish is not immune to the lemming mentality.

It's the individual players, not the mode, that decide what is or is not viable battlegrounds, in most cases. I play all 3 modes, and try to use all the map. Always drives me nuts to see people ignore the whole southern end of Alpine, for instance. Most players don't even know what it looks like, or Jenner Alley on Frozen city.

#51 1453 R

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:43 PM

View PostGyrok, on 22 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:


I have never complained about match times, waiting or any of that.

I prefer skirmish because it is more dynamic, once you reach a certain level of play, then the game basically revolves around 1 or 2 points on cap based maps. The fight always occurs at one of perhaps 2 locations, and it is boring. Skirmish, you can take the fight to parts of the map many players do not even know exists and make the match interesting.

That is why I hate the predictable conquest and assault.

View PostNeoCodex, on 22 September 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:


Not always. Well, at least much less than the 90%. From what I've played with Gyrok's squad, we often took the battle to new, interesting locations on the map, where in a 1000 games I've never fought before that day (obviously you can't do that on all maps but you can do it on some larger ones, for sure you won't see us fighting on Alpine's hill). While in objective game modes, you are pretty much guaranteed 100% on some maps and maybe you have 2 possibilities on others.

I see where he's making the point, it's just that it doesn't happen often that somebody takes the fight to a new location, that's where the group "skirmish is boring" comes in, cause you don't see many of those advanced skirmishers that take the battle to the new level, and new grounds. It really is the objectives that tie you in certain spots, while in skirmish nothing keeps you from making your own unique tactics (as long as you have a complete team fully comitted and following the orders), but as I said, this very rarely happens so you can't really understand until you see it or try it. I am however still at that point where I didnt' get bored of any of that, all game modes make interesting challenge and twist for me, objectives or not, at least it's not always the same.


Skirmish isn’t boring. It’s not dynamic, either. It’s toxic. It is a mistake I consider to be an even worse addition to the game than consumables or the third-person camera.

When I had Skirmish enabled in my drop queue, fully half the Skirmish matches I played were functionally no different than Assault would have been on the same maps. The vast majority of the rest were ten-minute Indecision Shuffles where two teams each shot angry looks rather than munitions or DE at each other for ten minutes…before ending the game’s last five minutes in the same fight that would’ve occurred in Assault mode on the same map, usually eight-odd minutes earlier.

And then there’s those delightful handful of outright horrific games where one team manages to secure an early advantage and then use it to play Camp Knoxx or Gingerbread Man, running out the timer rather than playing the game as intended and slinging insults and vitriol the whole while. The twisted monstrosities that finally made me disable Skirmish in my drop queue, and which are the thing holding me back from accepting Russ’ mode vote proposal.

If you two want to force me to play Skirmish mode, then I have the right to try and advocate for an option to ditch the match without moderator troubles or losing what rewards I may have earned – or being snarled at by my own team for daring to try and organize an effective counterblow – to counteract the fact that I will go from dropping in Skirmish mode 0% of the time, which is ideal, to doubtlessly dropping in Skirmish mode nine times out of ten because nobody in this godforsaken community has any interest in fair and decent play, or any mode that might require more flexibility and strategic planning than “SHOOT ALL DA DIAH WHAILS”.

I would much rather see improvements made to both Conquest and Assault to make them more popular and meatier game modes and watch Skirmish be excised from the public queues altogether, banished to private match lobbies where it belongs. Since that’s not an option, I’m pursuing what few options are left to me in the scant handful of days I have left before I get thrown to the trolls again.

Spoiler

Edited by 1453 R, 22 September 2014 - 02:50 PM.


#52 NeoCodex

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:44 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 September 2014 - 02:36 PM, said:

skirmish is pretty far and away the most commonly played mode. So if they are that drawn it, it would go to reason that Skirmish is not immune to the lemming mentality.

It's the individual players, not the mode, that decide what is or is not viable battlegrounds, in most cases. I play all 3 modes, and try to use all the map. Always drives me nuts to see people ignore the whole southern end of Alpine, for instance. Most players don't even know what it looks like, or Jenner Alley on Frozen city.


Hm, that's a valid point, but even when looking at the maps it doesn't tell the whole story since the vast majority of games overshadow the other locations that are rarely used.

I have to say, I like how the Jenner Alley sounds. Which part on Frozen is that? (also our group has a name for a part of that map as well - ****** ridge).

Edited by NeoCodex, 22 September 2014 - 02:45 PM.


#53 EgoSlayer

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 02:58 PM

I think just about any sort of Withdraw/Surrender mechanic is likely to be either abused, or ignored.

If you allow it to be used and restrict it to the last 5 minutes of the match only it eliminates the start of the match surrenders, but people that have gone somewhere to hide and shut down may still just grief everyone anyways by running out the clock, or wait until someone is on top of them and then quit.

If you make certain map locations as the retreat zones (still with some sort of lockout time), the enemy will likely end up camping there to see if the last players try to escape. And thus it's a death gauntlet for that player to even try so they likely still end up hiding.

I just don't see any of these options making things dramatically better, people will still run off and hide to preserve their numbers.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 22 September 2014 - 02:59 PM.


#54 1453 R

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:07 PM

View PostEgoSlayer, on 22 September 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

I think just about any sort of Withdraw/Surrender mechanic is likely to be either abused, or ignored.

If you allow it to be used and restrict it to the last 5 minutes of the match only it eliminates the start of the match surrenders, but people that have gone somewhere to hide and shut down may still just grief everyone anyways by running out the clock, or wait until someone is on top of them and then quit.

If you make certain map locations as the retreat zones (still with some sort of lockout time), the enemy will likely end up camping there to see if the last players try to escape. And thus it's a death gauntlet for that player to even try so they likely still end up hiding.

I just don't see any of these options making things dramatically better, people will still run off and hide to preserve their numbers.


Fair points raised by many others. All right, let's try this from a different angle.

Ego, Bishop, Mystere, others: since a withdraw option seems to be contra-indicated by the playerbase here, how would you guys go about reducing the ability of toxic/predatory Skirmish players from ruining every match they drop in? I've never had any good experiences in Skirmish, and I'm far from the only one. How would you look to change that, if you could? Without saying "Join a team and get on voice comms!" If that was an option I would have done it a long time ago. Does anyone have a Puglandia-friendly, casual-friendly method for mitigating the tendency of Skirmish to draw out the absolute worst behaviors of ninety percent of the players in it?

#55 EgoSlayer

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:29 PM

View Post1453 R, on 22 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Fair points raised by many others. All right, let's try this from a different angle.

Ego, Bishop, Mystere, others: since a withdraw option seems to be contra-indicated by the playerbase here, how would you guys go about reducing the ability of toxic/predatory Skirmish players from ruining every match they drop in? I've never had any good experiences in Skirmish, and I'm far from the only one. How would you look to change that, if you could? Without saying "Join a team and get on voice comms!" If that was an option I would have done it a long time ago. Does anyone have a Puglandia-friendly, casual-friendly method for mitigating the tendency of Skirmish to draw out the absolute worst behaviors of ninety percent of the players in it?


Even things like being powered off for some period of time you get booted have drawbacks, because it eliminates options of people who are truly waiting in ambush for someone to walk by.

Trust me, I wish there was a good answer since far too many Skirmish games end up running the full 15 minutes because someone ran off. But the solution has to be one that is mostly griefing proof, and only be used by players to end matches that are hopeless. I think most suggestions fail on one or both counts.

This was never an issue when Assault and Conquest were the only options - there are other victory conditions instead of chase the last mech. I think this is the solution - there has to be a way for the winning team players to meet some other objective to finish the match. Which was a suggested change to Assault, only allow base caps in the last few minutes to eliminate the early cap rushes which was the biggest QQ about Assault mode and why people wanted Skirmish.

#56 HlynkaCG

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 04:17 PM

View PostGyrok, on 22 September 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:


I have never complained about match times, waiting or any of that.

I prefer skirmish because it is more dynamic, once you reach a certain level of play, then the game basically revolves around 1 or 2 points on cap based maps. The fight always occurs at one of perhaps 2 locations, and it is boring. Skirmish, you can take the fight to parts of the map many players do not even know exists and make the match interesting.

That is why I hate the predictable conquest and assault.


You see, this is the exact opposite of my own experience.

There's really only two ways for a skirmish match to go. Option A: One or both teams decide to play turtle, and the game boils down to waiting. Option B: there is a big ole murder ball at the center of the map and if one team doesn't win outright, they get stuck playing "chase the spider" for the next 15 minutes.

That said, returning to the topic at hand.

I think some reasonable restrictions in when you can withdraw would go a long ways towards preventing griefing. IE you are only allowed to withdraw if...
  • You are at less than 50% health.
  • There is less than 5 minutes remaining in the match.
  • There are less than 5 players remaining on your team.
If one or more of those criteria are met running out of bounds no longer counts as a suicide, instead you get a message to the effect of " *Player X* has fled the field"

Edited by HlynkaCG, 22 September 2014 - 04:20 PM.


#57 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostNeoCodex, on 22 September 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:


Hm, that's a valid point, but even when looking at the maps it doesn't tell the whole story since the vast majority of games overshadow the other locations that are rarely used.

I have to say, I like how the Jenner Alley sounds. Which part on Frozen is that? (also our group has a name for a part of that map as well - ****** ridge).

Posted Image

the yellow highlighted area, so named as it was used by Jenners in Closed Beta to flank the enemy force. Majority of players only know it for the 2 spawn points and Theta, in Conquest. I've used it many times to string out numerically superior but slower enemy to be able to engage them one one one.

#58 WarHippy

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:47 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 22 September 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

Surrender can allow players to End a Match that is a forgone conclusion. There is no dishonor in showing good discretion. Its better to tap out than let your opponent break your arm/leg.


Any game that has a system for surrender has a bunch of pansies too quick to abandon the game before it is even over. If there are actual human lives/limbs on the line then discretion is important, but this is a game and if you are going to play then play to the end is the way I look at it.

Edited by WarHippy, 22 September 2014 - 07:47 PM.


#59 Mystere

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 07:57 PM

View Post1453 R, on 22 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Fair points raised by many others. All right, let's try this from a different angle.

Ego, Bishop, Mystere, others: since a withdraw option seems to be contra-indicated by the playerbase here, how would you guys go about reducing the ability of toxic/predatory Skirmish players from ruining every match they drop in? I've never had any good experiences in Skirmish, and I'm far from the only one. How would you look to change that, if you could? Without saying "Join a team and get on voice comms!" If that was an option I would have done it a long time ago. Does anyone have a Puglandia-friendly, casual-friendly method for mitigating the tendency of Skirmish to draw out the absolute worst behaviors of ninety percent of the players in it?


I offer a solution you probably do not expect. I offer none.

Why? I do not see the PUG and group queues as the heart of MWO. That title belongs to Community Warfare. As such, any more time spent on those queues is time taken away from CW.

Note how Russ said in another thread that Elo and 3/3/3/3 will not be used in CW. If that is indeed the case (and I will be extremely ecstatic if that becomes so), then all the time spent on Elo and 3/3/3/3 was time wasted.

So, the only advice I can give is to either go "Banzai!" (and have as much fun as you could possibly get while doing it), or just quit a toxic match. Those are what I do myself and I am perfectly fine with both.

Edited by Mystere, 22 September 2014 - 08:00 PM.


#60 1453 R

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 08:09 PM

View PostMystere, on 22 September 2014 - 07:57 PM, said:


I offer a solution you probably do not expect. I offer none.

Why? I do not see the PUG and group queues as the heart of MWO. That title belongs to Community Warfare. As such, any more time spent on those queues is time taken away from CW.

Note how Russ said in another thread that Elo and 3/3/3/3 will not be used in CW. If that is indeed the case (and I will be extremely ecstatic if that becomes so), then all the time spent on Elo and 3/3/3/3 was time wasted.

So, the only advice I can give is to either go "Banzai!" (and have as much fun as you could possibly get while doing it), or just quit a toxic match. Those are what I do myself and I am perfectly fine with both.


Community Warfare offers me absolutely nothing. I'll never partake in it because I can never partake in it, because only players who're part of a massive, rigidly organized player-run group are able to participate in Community Warfare. It has no role or place for solo players. The only thing Community Warfare may let me do is hurl myself alone in the teeth of a prepared, highly-coordinated league group twelve-man, and if I want to do that I'll go dial up my buddy Pierce and scratch off the 'alone' part.

So no; pardon me if I'm going to remain at least a little bit invested in the public drop game modes I'm still allowed to play.





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