81 replies to this topic

[RedWolfz0r]

Tymanthius, on 23 June 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:

So, this is a troll right? The forums have loads of info. Check the pinned topics. Check the Dev forums - espeically the Q&A stuff. Check the announcments.

I get bored, so I feed trolls sometimes. I should quit that.

No, this is not a troll. I would think a fanboy making personal attacks against people for no reason would qualify as a troll though.

Obviously your definition of "loads of info" and mine differ. Since this game is under the NDA I cannot find any gameplay videos that are not made by media. And even those are few and far between. Besides it is usually difficult to determine whether a game is fun from 5 minutes of grainy YouTube footage.

Mal, on 23 June 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

Purchasing a Founder's pack (which, doesn't have to cost $120, by the way) is no different than going into GameStop (or some other store), and pre-ordering a title your excited about.. GuildWars 2, The Secret World, World Of Warcraft, COD, Modern Warfare, The Sims, Madden, etc..etc..

Do you try every game before you pre-order?

Actually it is very different. A pre-order you can cancel at any time and all you will lose is the deposit. The Founder's Pack is non-refundable. And yes, I do try every game I pre-order, or at the very least watch lots of gameplay videos, etc. I can't remember the last game that hasn't had an open beta test BEFORE the pre-order finished.



To all the people who said "just don't buy it", I think you've completely missing the point. I WANT to buy it. I just want a chance to try the game first before I commit. I am not "undecided", I don't expect any special treatment, I simply want them to correct this huge PR mistake and extend the offer until Open Beta so that players that have not been let in yet can make up their minds based on their own experience. Otherwise they will miss out on a lot of pre-orders and everyone will suffer.

[RedWolfz0r]

Riffleman, on 23 June 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

So your basic complaint is you shouldnt have to pay money to beta test early. Well you dont have to. But dont expect them to just let you beta test their game because you threaten to take your ball and leave. You know 15 or so years ago when the internet wasent nearly as good, we just saw a few screenshots of games and articles in old fashion magazines. And we still bought games! If you have to have spreadsheets, hours of community interviews, and dozens of playthrough videos available on youtube to tell you if you want to buy a game or not I think you have bigger issues than spending money to try a game early.

No, my basic complaint is that this is essentially asking people to make a non-refundable pre-order for a game they have very little information about. Most games on the market will provide at least a playable demo / open beta test to players before their pre-order period closes.

15+ years ago we had something called Shareware Disks. They allowed you to try demos of games/programs for virtually free, then decide whether you like them and buy the full version. If you think the concept of "try before you buy" was invented with the Internet you are completely mistaken.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

well said.

on a serious note now,

I personally would love to support this game before it goes past beta, but unfortunately this won't happen unless I become satisified with the amount of information I have access to, whether this is from an open beta or other sources of game data. I really hope the founders packs are on sale until sometime after open beta starts. I understand it's a beta and an unfinished game thus far, and as far as I can tell the developer and public relations bases are doing a tremendous job of working within their contractual obligations while at the same time providing us information, and there's already so much information out on the game already. So It won't take much to get me to commit my time and money.

I am looking for games that will provide me entertainment on a competitive level for a very, very long time so I really value information about function more than information about form. I have this, hawken, and several other games scoped and am willing to play more than one but I can only divide my time so much and still remain effective so only the most attractive functionally will grab my attention.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 June 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Besh]

Battlecruiser, on 23 June 2012 - 11:47 AM, said:

yes because being hostile is such a perfect way to get people to open up to you.

I think thats the difference in approaches here...youre thinking 90s style insurance marketing...Im think 21st century style relationship based world.

Also you twisting my expression from "even yelling at them would be better ( than simply ignoring them )" to "being hostile" makes you look weak rly in terms of debating. If you are going to use my words as a platform to illustrate a point, at least quote me properly.

Im not all intending to "get people to open up to me". In fact, Im disgusted by any conscious attempt to manipulate people. If they want to, they will open up. If not, they wont. I will not consciously incoorporate any manipulating technology to try and influence their choice.

Edited by Besh, 23 June 2012 - 12:04 PM.

[Tymanthius]

I'm not a fan boy. And, well, saying there is no info when there is loads of info IS trolling. Sorry it wasn't the info you were looking for. That's a different topic tho.

I will grant you that founder packs aren't pre-orders. Did you read the post about Founders = risk? The founder packs serve a completely different purpose than pre orders.

So, yea, you are, by BC's definition, playing hte 'help me' game. It can fun, I may play a while longer.

And while shareware is an old concept, the buy it first, find out if it works for you later, is at least as old.

BC: I think you're out of luck on the open beta thing. I'm pretty sure, but I don't have the link handy, that the Dev's have said Open Beta is AFTER aug 7th. And I know Russ has said that the founder packs will not be available after Aug 7th.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Besh, on 23 June 2012 - 12:00 PM, said:

I think thats the difference in approaches here...youre thinking 90s style insurance marketing...Im think 21st century style relationship based world.

Also you twisting my expression from "even yelling at them would be better" to "being hostile" makes you look weak rly in terms of debating. If you are going to use my words as a platform to illustrate a point, at least quote me properly.

Im not all intending to "get people to open up to me". In fact, Im disgusted by any conscious attempt to manipulate people. If they want to, they will open up. If not, they wont. I will not consciously incoorporate any manipulating technology to try and influence their choice.

but by attacking them you are trying to manipulate them into making a choice, they will either choose to completely leave the community, or they will get mad enough to try and prove you wrong, many times resulting in a purchase. have you ever thought about the fallout from others going "look how hostile that representitive of the community is, I'm not sure if this is the place for me" would cause? I suspect not because you appeal to me as someone who is very ignorant and uncaring of the people he is intended to serve. Oh and not to mention that kind of mentality will draw other rabid, ignorant players in who will value you as a role model and will help to drive off potential customers with like minded hostilities. yelling at others and being hostile is not a constructive way to solve any problem, if anything it's juvenile. yelling SHUT UP STUPID YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT to someone that refutes one of your points or asks a question is just silly billy.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 June 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[Besh]

The sheer arrogance of you claiming to know any possible reaction by anyone baffles me.

Also, OP already HAS made a choice upfront: wont buy Pack unless hes played the game. That you fail to see that, and fail to acknowledge Im doing as I wrote: nothing to try and manipulate his choice; doesnt proove your point.

Your remarks as to my personality are uncalled for. Its you calling me "hostile" simply cos I stated even yelling at people is less rude than simply ignoring them. I wont comment further on that other than, you are twisting words and taking information out of context to try and make a point, which is a well known manipulating technique. Some will fall for it, some not.

Edited by Besh, 23 June 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Blair]

Battlecruiser, on 23 June 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Also I'd like to make a note that the people rabidly attacking others for asking questions come from two types outside of those contracted to do so,

those who have made investments, thus defending what they have invested no matter how right or wrong

and those too poor to invest, but fancy themselves as an investor in whatever fantasy land concotion their ego has created. see: poor people defending the rich for attacking the poor.

both are a form of ignorance, and while i'll most likely get attacked in the same drone fashion it's of no consequence because it's rather hilarious albiet a little pathetic.

oh and inb4 a community member defends the developers by saying "fine don't spend anything *****, we don't need your money anyway". lol.

Isn't refusal to accept differing opinions/input also a form of ignorance? Because you have just preemptively discarded any contrary response to your beliefs by assuming anyone who doesn't agree with you is either "the poor, defending the rich by attacking the poor" or an overzealous community member. Surely you can see those are not the only possibilities. Some people are simply willing to gamble money in the hopes it will help make a better game. Is everyone who's donated to a Kickstarter campaign dumb for having done so?

For others, they aren't comfortable spending money without having a completed product to review, and that's fine, that's their choice, yet I only ever see those people attacking those who did spend money. I've yet to see anyone say "Why HAVEN'T you bought a Founder's Pack?" because we understand it's not everyone's cup of tea. It seems more like you're interested in belittling those who did, so you can feel better about the fact that you're not financially supporting this project.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Besh, on 23 June 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

The sheer arrogance of you claiming to know any possible reaction by anyone baffles me.

I never claimed to know any possible reaction, however by you stating this implies that you know better. Your ignorance is astounding that you would imply that you know no wrong and your actions could never be at fault. and in fact you're being hostile right now, You've been hostile ever since you made it a point to make personal attacks instead of addressing arguments, and in fact I believe that if you were a mod I would have been banned a long time ago because you lack the capacity for rational debate and that's your solution to anyone you can't bully into silence.

Blair, on 23 June 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

Isn't refusal to accept differing opinions/input also a form of ignorance? Because you have just preemptively discarded any contrary response to your beliefs by assuming anyone who doesn't agree with you is either "the poor, defending the rich by attacking the poor" or an overzealous community member. Surely you can see those are not the only possibilities.

if these are not the only possibilities then you surely are not proving it by making personal attacks. however I will admit there are far more copy paste dismissals to use out there instead of actually tackling the subject. Also you're stretching it a bit there by assuming that I've written off everybody into such narrow categories. Thank you for telling me I should be explicit next time and to literate that I am only providing a handful of responses that are commonly used to dismiss arguments or bully legitimate question askers.

also nice goading attempt to try and get me to buy a founders pack just now to "prove you wrong". You know why is it married men always try to get their single buddies to get married?

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 June 2012 - 12:19 PM.

[Besh]

Battlecruiser, on 23 June 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

but by attacking them you are trying to manipulate them into making a choice, they will either choose to completely leave the community, or they will get mad enough to try and prove you wrong

Its this sentence which - as I read it - clearly only states 2 possible reactions.

Id appreciate if youd mark your edits in your own posts, so that people following the conversation have a chance to see what you edited in after some response.

I ask you to tell me where I have been openly hostile to anyone in this thread apart from your personal interpretation.

EDIT: I am NOT a MOD. And you do not know how I would act on these Forums if I was. Since I am NOT a MOD, I dont act like one... one thing ( amongst others ) I was fortunate enough to learn is: pretending doesnt work well for me...

Edited by Besh, 23 June 2012 - 12:25 PM.

[RedWolfz0r]

Tymanthius, on 23 June 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

I'm not a fan boy. And, well, saying there is no info when there is loads of info IS trolling. Sorry it wasn't the info you were looking for. That's a different topic tho.

I will grant you that founder packs aren't pre-orders. Did you read the post about Founders = risk? The founder packs serve a completely different purpose than pre orders.

So, yea, you are, by BC's definition, playing hte 'help me' game. It can fun, I may play a while longer.

And while shareware is an old concept, the buy it first, find out if it works for you later, is at least as old.

BC: I think you're out of luck on the open beta thing. I'm pretty sure, but I don't have the link handy, that the Dev's have said Open Beta is AFTER aug 7th. And I know Russ has said that the founder packs will not be available after Aug 7th.

Like I said, obviously our definitions of "loads of info" vary. Can you explain to me how there is "loads of info" when the players in the closed beta are under an NDA? Can you maybe point me in the direction of some gameplay videos from an unofficial source?

I did read the post about Founders = risk. It's made by a person who has no idea what risk management is. As for them serving a different purpose to pre-orders, I disagree. They serve the exact same purpose - raising cash for the developers before the game is actually finished.

I'm not playing the "help me" game. I have plenty of games to play and frankly I won't lose any sleep if I don't make it into the Closed Beta. My point is the the developers of this game, which we are all hoping to enjoy, are going to miss out on a lot of potential revenue because of a silly public relations mistake.

As for "buy it first, find out if it works for you later", here in Australia we have a law that says we can return something we buy for up to a year if it is defective. The Founder's Packs don't offer you any opportunity of a refund. So it doesn't fit that model either I'm afraid. It's more like "please give me money, because we all hope that the game we will make will be good and if it isn't then bad luck". Frankly that business model is closest to Kickstarter.

Edited by RedWolfz0r, 23 June 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

RedWolfz0r, on 23 June 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

As for "buy it first, find out if it works for you later", here in Australia we have a law that says we can return something we buy for up to a year if it is defective. The Founder's Packs don't offer you any opportunity of a refund. So it doesn't fit that model either I'm afraid. It's more like "please give me money, because we all hope that the game we will make will be good and if it isn't then bad luck". Frankly that business model is closest to Kickstarter.

ding ding ding ding!

and this is why I love australians. not their laws so much about *********** and internet but the people are great!

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Besh, on 23 June 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Its this sentence which - as I read it - clearly only states 2 possible reactions.

in no way did I state them as the only two possible reactions. they are the most common however, and If I'm wrong then please by all means prove it.


and as far as how I edit, the context of what I type always remains the same, I grow posts as I have more to add but stop after a reply has been made. primarily so I don't do the discourtesy of double posts, like i have just now probably because I'm getting tired.

also this is possibly one of the best games of attack and defend I've played in a while, so thank you.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 June 2012 - 12:30 PM.

[Berserker]

In my case, I don't really see it as pre-ordering a game so much as the fact that I have some disposable income which others might not have and I'm choosing to both help make something I want to succeed a reality and I suppose paying it forward for the F2P users in the future to enjoy the same franchise I'm keen on.

[Tymanthius]

So you're saying that only info that comes from unofficial sources is 'real'? That's just silly, if I understand you correctly.

The fact is, there is a lot of info out there. It also all (I think) comes from the official source.

That, apparently, doesn't fit your needs. That's a shame, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of information available, EVEN IF IT ISN'T THE INFO YOU WANT.

And, yes, you are playing the "help me" game b/c when given the very things you originally asked for, you said it wasn't right.

If you don't want to get a founder's pack, that's fine. And your reasons are as good as any. But don't make untrue claims, and then state that THOSE are the reasons. IE: There's no info available, so I won't buy. The correct statement is: The info I want isn't available, so I won't buy.

As to the Aussie law: Most US states have a similar law, we refer to it as a Lemon Law. But software isn't sold, it licensed, which is a whole 'nother problem in and of itself.

[Volthorne]

I'm going to back up and do a little arguing on a point RedWolf wanted to try and make:

RedWolfz0r, on 23 June 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

No, my basic complaint is that this is essentially asking people to make a non-refundable pre-order for a game they have very little information about. Most games on the market will provide at least a playable demo / open beta test to players before their pre-order period closes.

The thing is, PGI literally CANNOT make a demo or Open BETA test without skipping months of needed groundwork. There is a reason that the game is still in CB1: It is not ready to be made publicly available yet. Doing so would compromise any and all CB data they have gathered so far, and ruin any chance for success that they currently have.

Also, they don't have the resources to put a team on making a demo of a PvP-based game - which is not possible, due to the sheer nature of it being PvP.

Edited by Volthorne, 23 June 2012 - 12:33 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Berserker, on 23 June 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

In my case, I don't really see it as pre-ordering a game so much as the fact that I have some disposable income which others might not have and I'm choosing to both help make something I want to succeed a reality and I suppose paying it forward for the F2P users in the future to enjoy the same franchise I'm keen on.

okay serious time
this. people who defend the founders as a pre order deal, or claim buying it should allow them early access are just silly billies. In all honesty founders is synonymous with risk as others have said when so little information is public. Stop looking at it as "what am I going to get" and start looking at it as "the developers are showing their gratitude for my early support in their product", I could go further and say "the developers are showing their gratitude for my early support in their product because they need it" but this is making quite a few assumtions.

My only hope like I have stated is that they continue to provide the option into the open beta, or another circumstance where more information on game mechanics will become available, I'm certain I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 23 June 2012 - 12:38 PM.

[Skadi]

RedWolfz0r, on 23 June 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

(and I know for a fact a lot of my WoT clan mates feel the same way)

Pretty much lost me when you said that

[Besh]

OP simply wants early access to the game. He uses the possibility of him buying a founders pack afterwards as the bone. The point about PG/IGP potentially loosing out on customers/money is just the marker to underline his attempt.

In fact, there are good and understandeable reasons for MW:O not being opened to ANYONE whod love to participate as long as its still in CB State. Its actually an extremely smart and applause deserving way to use the HUGE desire of people to be part of CB as a means to actually fund the cost. It gives the developer/publisher a lot of information as well as prevents them from throwing a lot of money into enabling people who simply want to have early access to be part of CB on the possibility of those people spending money later.

What PG/IGP are doing is smart, and shows great care. They dont throw money ( =HW ) at potential revenue. They know the resoure is available to them ( = countless people wanting to be part of CB and more than happy to support them and give em money for that to happen ), so they actually GENERATE income to fund part of the CB2 expenses.

As for PG/IGP potentially loosing out...its widely accepted on these Forums that packages WILL be available soon OB starts. Or close to it. And noone has any gripes with it rly. Anyone who wants to spend money, but ONLY after they have seen/played the game, will have ample opportunity to do just that.AFTER CB Stage...if thats your gripe, Im kindof sure ALL you REALLY want is CB access...for free.

Honestly, it never came to my mind the people pulling off this Project out of their own desire to create a great game, initially at their own cost and risk, were a bunch of know-nothings who have no clue about marketing their product...

Edited by Besh, 23 June 2012 - 12:46 PM.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Skadi, on 23 June 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Pretty much lost me when you said that

World of Tanks is a poorly made, belarus(see: russian) run game that does a very good job of discriminating its players on both the competitive and casual levels in favor of whales- with a little german tank bias at the behest of the competitive community mixed in for good measure.