78 replies to this topic

[Hades Trooper]

VagGR, on 25 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

both. simple as that.

they BOTH have to pay attention around them. Also keep in mind thet not all people that run infront of a dwolf are deprs. have you considered that the may not had a choice? in that case the derp is the dwolf who didnt stop firing because "OMG I'M DIREWOLF WITH 32AC5S DAKAKADAKAKA MUST SHOOOOT THE RED THINGY CLICK CLICK CLICK"...

so situational awereness goes both ways and both are to blame

Well the example i have in mind and i hope i've painted it pretty clearly, the mechs who got tk'ed could have kept going the right hand side of the building instead of the left, we where up 9-3 and the only mech left was the direwolf and the other 2 enemey mechs where up at the saddle in crimson straight and i was coming from the side tunnel entrance towards the ramp and was up in the city heading towards the enemy when the friendly mech could have safely without taking fire gone right and move in from the flank BUT then he might have not gotten the kill shot he was chasing.

so by chasing the killsteal he tooko a volley in the back rather than play tactical, is that the dakka dakka fault then? If your doubled shot and your volley is in flight how can it be the dakka dakka wolf's fault you moved into the establised fire path when he had started going toe to toe with the other direwolf and had shredded it so it was about to die?

does your right to attempt the kill steal mean that they can magicall change the projectile path once there already in flight?

I find it interesting how people can think the dakka dakka can do anything once the shots are in mid flight.

If anyone can tell me how to avoid this i'd love to know how, cause to my knowledge once the projectiles are in lfight they will damage the 1st thing they hit,

now i will add with lasers mid burn i can move the focus point ot the air or ground and avoid the damage but in my dakka dakka wolf it's like nothing i can do or ani missing something?

[Fut]

Ghogiel, on 25 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

If all you want to do is justify shooting bads on your team in the back, it's them that's at fault.

Personally, the bad DWFs shooting friendlies in the back is the #1 cause of FF these days and they need to l2p. It was epidemic the first week clan wave 1 was released and here we are months later and bads are trying to justify it and place blame elsewhere.

In my opinion, it's kind of the fault of both parties involved - the DWF (or whatever Mech) shooting, and the Mech running into their line, but the bulk of the "blame" rests on the shoulder of the DWF. The person running into the line of fire should be more aware of what is going on around them, sometimes it's tough though, as it's entirely possible to enter the lane of fire while the shooters weapons are recycling or something. Ultimately though, the person who's doing the shooting (DWF) should hold their fire the instant the see a Friendly in their crosshair.

[Hades Trooper]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 05:36 AM, said:

Car accidents are much the same way. The car in front doesn't always have a clear view of the car behind and so can not always determine where that car will be moving. Thus in general the car behind the other car is the one considered, "At Fault" as they have a clearer view of what is happening.

Obviously this isn't always the case, there are exceptions, but they start from the idea that the car behind the other was more likely to see what was happening and have a chance to react, just like the mech who is firing and having his field of fire crossed.

i would say yes to that but if your going toe to toe with another dakka wolf and your both trying to bore a hole into each other, with the smoke and fire and flashes, i personally have them targetted and in these occassions i fire at the centre of the red box.

how can i tell if you moved into my path and once u have, how do i get my ammo in mid flight to veer to avoid you, an before u moved in front of the established line of fire, to my mind it would have been logical to come from the right flank where there was no incoming fire rather than step in the middle of a gun fight

[Hades Trooper]

Fut, on 25 September 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

In my opinion, it's kind of the fault of both parties involved - the DWF (or whatever Mech) shooting, and the Mech running into their line, but the bulk of the "blame" rests on the shoulder of the DWF. The person running into the line of fire should be more aware of what is going on around them, sometimes it's tough though, as it's entirely possible to enter the lane of fire while the shooters weapons are recycling or something. Ultimately though, the person who's doing the shooting (DWF) should hold their fire the instant the see a Friendly in their crosshair.

Yes but i think i expressed clearly in a follow up to the OP that i had shots are in mid flight and had double tapped, and the projectile speeds of ac10's is such that you can fire and double tapp before the target at 600 metres is hit and a friendly mech at 400 metres instead of going right as you would expect turns left thus catches the shots in the back.

In this example i had stopped firing once they where in the way but i couldn't stop the projectiles already in mid flight. thus they got hit with the big guns but i had stopped firing the ultras ac/2s that are in my arms and once the teamkill notice came up i started firing again.

Is that a little more clear?

don't forget with a 250 ping, it can appear clear for 1 person and another think there being fired upon

Edited by Hades Trooper, 25 September 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[DustySkunk]

Hades Trooper, on 25 September 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

I would concur with this thoughts but here's my main point is projectile speeds.

At 500 metres, i can fire ac/10's and have a clean line of fire but that moderately fast moving mech can jump in front at half way to the target and get hit.

Perhaps i didn't make that clear, as the example i'm thinking of that happened tonight was firing at another direwolf at 600 metress metres, at about 400 metres away a mech that was behind cover picked that time to jump out and caught the alpha in the back and since i had double tapped the 2nd alpha had just left the barrels so from there pov i had continued to fire when in fact with my 250 ping, i had fired both alphas when i had a clean fire path.

Yet they then ranted in team chat how i was a team killer

In this case it sounds like an issue with situational awareness on their part. It's easy to get tunnel vision sometimes; you pick up an enemy contact and if you are in a close range build it's easy to forget to "look both ways before you cross the road." At 600m out, it would have been easy for him to miss that you were already engaging the target unless he was careful (especially given that he was in cover). Your fault? If the rounds had already left your ACs by the time he showed up in your view, then no. Did he take it too far by lighting up the chat with TK rage? Probably. In my experience, very few people will just intentionally fire through a friendly, and TKs are almost always accidental. Anyone who plays this game on a regular basis more than likely has that understanding and shouldn't fly into a rage over it. The exception being people intentionally TKing, but that usually happens at spawn and they quickly gain a reputation for it.

In general it is a two way street. People need to watch where they are going, and people need to use proper trigger discipline. If one or the other fails to do so, we end up with TKs and FF episodes.

Edited by DustySkunk, 25 September 2014 - 05:54 AM.

[Fut]

UnsafePilot, on 25 September 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

A mech stepping in front of another's firing lane is more akin to being cut off on the road. What's in question here seems more like asking who's at fault when you run the other guy off the road for cutting you off a second ago.

So when somebody cuts you off while you're driving, do you hit the brakes or do you run into them because it's "their fault" ?

[Mercules]

UnsafePilot, on 25 September 2014 - 05:41 AM, said:

A mech stepping in front of another's firing lane is more akin to being cut off on the road. What's in question here seems more like asking who's at fault when you run the other guy off the road for cutting you off a second ago.

Which is why my statement is that it is situational, however it STARTS from a point where they consider the guy behind the other who has the clearer view of the situation to have a greater chance to react and be more at fault. Like I said, that doesn't mean he IS at fault, just that is where they start the investigation with it against him because chances are he could have seen something and reacted while the person in front might not have.

[Mercules]

Hades Trooper, on 25 September 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

i would say yes to that but if your going toe to toe with another dakka wolf and your both trying to bore a hole into each other, with the smoke and fire and flashes, i personally have them targetted and in these occassions i fire at the centre of the red box.

how can i tell if you moved into my path and once u have, how do i get my ammo in mid flight to veer to avoid you, an before u moved in front of the established line of fire, to my mind it would have been logical to come from the right flank where there was no incoming fire rather than step in the middle of a gun fight

You just fire at red boxes and wonder why you commit Friendly Fire? That would be because you don't verify targets and even MORE your fault than your teammate's if that is the case.

[Hades Trooper]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 05:55 AM, said:

Which is why my statement is that it is situational, however it STARTS from a point where they consider the guy behind the other who has the clearer view of the situation to have a greater chance to react and be more at fault. Like I said, that doesn't mean he IS at fault, just that is where they start the investigation with it against him because chances are he could have seen something and reacted while the person in front might not have.

yes but here are my options, fire at the enemy direwolf thats just backing up in a stright line thus is offering a great chance at smashing his CT or take his fire to the face cause that friendly might lack good judgement and jump into the line of fire rather than take the safe route but by doing so might not get the kill shot.

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

You just fire at red boxes and wonder why you commit Friendly Fire? That would be because you don't verify targets and even MORE your fault than your teammate's if that is the case.

So your saying i should accept incoming fire rather fire back cause someone else might just happen to step in front as now both dakka dakka wolves are trying to grind each other to dust?

[UnsafePilot]

Fut, on 25 September 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

So when somebody cuts you off while you're driving, do you hit the brakes or do you run into them because it's "their fault" ?

I hit the brakes, that was my point with that analogy. The cut off was a mistake and we can debate who's at fault there but it's madness to ask who's at fault for your attack on the person after the fact.

If you really couldn't adjust your aim/stop firing quick enough to save the other guy just say you're sorry for the accident and move on. In my experience it's that trying to convince them that they deserved it after the fact that gets people upset.

Edited by UnsafePilot, 25 September 2014 - 06:06 AM.

[Hades Trooper]

Cause i started firing on the other direwolf, he started firing back, he's moving backwards i'm standing my ground and since it was 9-3 i was happy to see who could out blast the other in a face to face gunfight and the silly other mech steps in way and it's my fault cause i've gone tunnel vision determined to take the other direwolf out instead of dieing?

when the whole time the mech who got team killed could have taken 2 seconds longer to come around a single building and help fire on the enemy mech rather than block the line of fire.

you logic doesn't make any sense to me

[Hades Trooper]

UnsafePilot, on 25 September 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

If you really couldn't adjust your aim/stop firing quick enough to save the other guy just say your sorry for the accident and move on. In my experience it's that trying to convince them that they deserved it after the fact that gets people upset.

I would have but i had to kill the otherdirewolf who was firing on me and by the time i'd killed it, the other mech who'd been tk'ed by accident had ranted and then quit the match before i could respond.

We did all laugh on teampseak when it happened though, so maybe that makes me a bad person?

[Mott]

Ghogiel, on 25 September 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

If all you want to do is justify shooting bads on your team in the back, it's them that's at fault.

Personally, the bad DWFs shooting friendlies in the back is the #1 cause of FF these days and they need to l2p. It was epidemic the first week clan wave 1 was released and here we are months later and bads are trying to justify it and place blame elsewhere.

Do you have clan mechs? The streams of ACs & lasers are completely ridiculous. If Clan pilots only pulled the trigger when they were sure they could get complete burn time of lasers or fire spreads of ACs out without having a friendly run into the fire lane... they'd never pull the trigger.

If a dakka dakka wolf is laying down a stream of fire - which is the scenario the OP presented - and a friendly walks/runs/jjs/trips/warps into said stream of fire... then it is 100% the fault of the [redacted] running through the fire.

Personally, i've now got over 6000 drops and just 3 FF kills. And each of my FF kills have come since i started piloting clan mechs (SCRs & SMNs) that rely on stupid long laser burns.

Edited by Egomane, 25 September 2014 - 09:58 AM.
Insults have no place here

[Mercules]

Hades Trooper, on 25 September 2014 - 05:59 AM, said:

yes but here are my options, fire at the enemy direwolf thats just backing up in a stright line thus is offering a great chance at smashing his CT or take his fire to the face cause that friendly might lack good judgement and jump into the line of fire rather than take the safe route but by doing so might not get the kill shot.

Accidents happen, but you are not making it sound like an accident, more like a stubborn willful action of, "How dare he? I'll just keep firing."

Here is the solution. Drop in a Light mech for 100 matches or so and see how easy it is to avoid FF and how damaging it is when it happens. Then after you have had your arm blown off by a cataphract or direwolf who is zoomed in and didn't see that they have placed one of their arm barrels practically up against your back before firing, you might have a different opinion. Maybe after you NARC'd a target or drew two lights off of the back of one of your friendlies and are running for your life only to find your only open avenue filled with Dakka and try and time the dive through since you know the guy isn't going to slow down long enough for you to safely cross even WHEN he sees you coming... you might have a different opinion.


I get that some people crowd in for kill shots and that is why K/D ratio is stupid, but shooting them in the back is even more dumb because that can affect the W/L ratio, C-Bills, XP, and a whole slew of other things. Let them have the kill and move on where your firepower will be more needed.

[Mercules]

Mott, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Do you have clan mechs?

Yes.

Mott, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

If Clan pilots only pulled the trigger when they were sure they could get complete burn time of lasers or fire spreads of ACs out without having a friendly run into the fire lane... they'd never pull the trigger.

Bull, I pull my C-ERLL off targets all the time to avoid friendly mechs and end up shooting the ground for part of the beam.

Mott, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

If a dakka dakka wolf is laying down a stream of fire - which is the scenario the OP presented -

The way he just presented it also made it sound like he saw the guy coming.... doesn't that mean he could have let up on the trigger?

Hades Trooper, on 25 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

So your saying i should accept incoming fire rather fire back cause someone else might just happen to step in front as now both dakka dakka wolves are trying to grind each other to dust?

If he is SO CLOSE that you can't avoid hitting him and still fire at the enemy mech... then he is blocking the enemy from shooting at you as well.

[Hades Trooper]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Accidents happen, but you are not making it sound like an accident, more like a stubborn willful action of, "How dare he? I'll just keep firing."

Here is the solution. Drop in a Light mech for 100 matches or so and see how easy it is to avoid FF and how damaging it is when it happens. Then after you have had your arm blown off by a cataphract or direwolf who is zoomed in and didn't see that they have placed one of their arm barrels practically up against your back before firing, you might have a different opinion. Maybe after you NARC'd a target or drew two lights off of the back of one of your friendlies and are running for your life only to find your only open avenue filled with Dakka and try and time the dive through since you know the guy isn't going to slow down long enough for you to safely cross even WHEN he sees you coming... you might have a different opinion.


I get that some people crowd in for kill shots and that is why K/D ratio is stupid, but shooting them in the back is even more dumb because that can affect the W/L ratio, C-Bills, XP, and a whole slew of other things. Let them have the kill and move on where your firepower will be more needed.

Well it was an accident, the volley that killed him where in mid flight, i did stop firing my ac/s and once he died i went back to firing.

Was i sorry he died cause he tried to kill steal? nope.

Did i stop firing once he was in the path of fire? Yes

Would i do anything different next time? Nope

Do i think people who have poor awareness need to learn hard lessons and take the odd tk so they can learn? Yes.

When i use lasers and people step in front do i move the point of focus to avoid FF? Yes.

Had the mech who got tk'd gone the long way, 2 seconds more, lived by going right instead of left? Yes.

[Piney II]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

running for your life only to find your only open avenue filled with Dakka and try and time the dive through since you know the guy isn't going to slow down long enough for you to safely cross even WHEN he sees you coming

Been there a few times!

Thinking "this is going to hurt".

[Hades Trooper]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

If he is SO CLOSE that you can't avoid hitting him and still fire at the enemy mech... then he is blocking the enemy from shooting at you as well.

I was 600 metres form the enemy who was backing up in a straight line. the friendly mech was approx 400 metres in front of me behind the building and obviously had him on radar as i had the target locked and in a red box from pressing the R button, thus he could see on his mini map and the way he had approached the enemy.

Did i expect him to jump out left instead of continuing to use cover to close in? No, why wouldn't you keep using the cover and go right?

Was he going to blocking the enemy fire from me? Nope, as i explained in more detail i was up on the high ground, the friendly had used his JJ's to get mid air and get hit so even if i hadn't had hit him iwth projectile that where in mid flight in his back while he was in mid flgiht using his JJ, when he landed i would have been still an exposed target unless the direwolf had picked to change targets to the closer mech.

[UnsafePilot]

If you had no control over it happening then why start a thread asking who was at fault?

This still sounds more like you thought you were teaching the person a lesson and wanted to come here to get some confirmation that it was a good thing to do.

[Hades Trooper]

Mercules, on 25 September 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

Here is the solution. Drop in a Light mech for 100 matches or so and see how easy it is to avoid FF and how damaging it is when it happens.

Been there done that, my founders mech is a Jenner and i have more light mechs than assault or any other weight class. love my Kit Fox.

I love playing the, Kit Fox, being the little kid giving the ecm and fire support for the fat kid.