23 replies to this topic

[Psyrex]

Hi Guys,
I've noticed that a few mechs don't have any hard points on their arms and I was wondering if there is any downside to dropping the armour of the arms down to 1?

Apart from being really weak and being blown off pretty quick, is there any other side effect that i should be aware of?

Thanks all.

[IraqiWalker]

No problem with dropping the armor down. We usually use these as "shield arms" The best example being the entire Centurion chassis. Every single variant has a big left shield arm.

[The Great Unwashed]

Nope, there is no harm done there. Having said that, if the arms are really large they can aid you by absorbing side-torso hits if you twist your mech really well so---depending on the mech---adding armor can help you.

[Keith66AH]

Yes. Damage transfers from one location to the next toward the center torso. So if your arms are blown off... instantly in the case of 1 armor, all further damage transfers to the side torso. With no weapons or equipment in the arms, think of them as shields for the rest of your mech.

[IraqiWalker]

Keith Youngblood, on 21 September 2014 - 02:11 PM, said:

Yes. Damage transfers from one location to the next toward the center torso. So if your arms are blown off... instantly in the case of 1 armor, all further damage transfers to the side torso. With no weapons or equipment in the arms, think of them as shields for the rest of your mech.

1 armor isn't instant destruction. The arm still has internal health on top of that.

[Koniving]

An arm with 1 point of armor (but a max of 32 points) will actually have 16 points of internal structure health before it is blown off, meaning a total of 17 health (compared to 48 if fully armored).

The main downfall is that you will not have anything helping to absorb enemy fire once it is lost.

A mech that is good with torso twisting is also good at throwing arms in the way of enemy fire.

A Centurion isn't so good for this because the left arm doesn't flex in the animations (...but of a problem at times but it allows the "Shield-front AC under/over/beside" technique that no one really uses these days).
However a Shadowhawk for example, by twisting away from the enemy you can also {LT-MOB-25} your arms upward like / this or \ this in order to try and catch enemy fire in place of your torso.

It doesn't work as well because of HSR (lag compensation), but back in the day when you saw a bullet coming your way you could get perfect timing. There were Atlas pilots who would almost literally 'punch' or 'swat' at AC/20 rounds, throwing a fist or forearm in the way of the shot to block it, and they could do this all day rendering themselves nearly invincible.

Such techniques are sort of lost on today's players, though.

....I miss closed beta.
So, soooo much more skill involved.

[Bront]

Some arms the armor helps a bit (The Raven 2X's arm for example took many a torso shot for me, same with the Cicada 3M), other arms less so but still don't hurt (some Shadowhawks).

But yes, there's no need to max it., and it's a fairly safe place to shave off some armor.

Heck, Stalkers don't need full arm armor as they often lose their torso first (they still need some though).

[DivineEvil]

Even if they're completely empty, arms are essential component for brawling mechs, since they can soak up a lot of collateral damage from enemies around the fight. They're also an effective defense against LRM damage if you know where missiles are coming from, especially humanoid ones. Arms with little to no armor are blown away extremely fast and give up your position trough smoke coming from wrecked shoulders, and it also might attract unnecessary attention, since generic players would prefer to target an enemy with damage readily visible.

In most cases armor on arms worth the tonnage it takes, but determination in your mech build you trying to achieve might worth it as well. It's really up to you.

Edited by DivineEvil, 21 September 2014 - 04:37 PM.

[W00DSTER]

max all the armor!

[WrathOfDeadguy]

An arm without any vital equipment in it is a potential 2x bonus for your torso armor on that side- that's been true in every MW title to date. It's not unreasonable to cut some of that armor off if you really need the tonnage, but it's still a completely expendable part of your chassis. Weigh the risks of taking its armor off vs the benefits of keeping it on- but pay particular attention to your 'Mech's target profile from that side. If your arm covers most of the torso, then you'd be well served to armor it as a damage sponge. If it covers barely anything, you can safely take more armor off it because it won't protect you much anyway.

[Eaerie]

and remember once that limb is gone if it still has a "nub" it can be used to midigate damage transfer to the next location. this is what makes centurions so durable. you blow an arm off the "nub" is still there so all subsequent shots that hit that nub only transfer 50% of there damage to the side torso. then if the side torso is lost you have the potential of reducing damage 50% for the arm and another 50% of the remaining damage for the side torso before doing damage to the CT. its why a lot of players leg centurions, its an easier kill.

[terrycloth]

When I was leveling the spider 5v that only has weapons in the center torso, I had both arms, both torsos, and the head at 1 armor. Pieces would explode off me all match! It was the most fun you can have in a spider 5v because my god that mech is awful.

[Ghogiel]

Koniving, on 21 September 2014 - 02:41 PM, said:

An arm with 1 point of armor (but a max of 32 points) will actually have 16 points of internal structure health before it is blown off, meaning a total of 17 health (compared to 48 if fully armored).

The main downfall is that you will not have anything helping to absorb enemy fire once it is lost.

A mech that is good with torso twisting is also good at throwing arms in the way of enemy fire.

A Centurion isn't so good for this because the left arm doesn't flex in the animations (...but of a problem at times but it allows the "Shield-front AC under/over/beside" technique that no one really uses these days).
However a Shadowhawk for example, by twisting away from the enemy you can also {LT-MOB-25} your arms upward like / this or \ this in order to try and catch enemy fire in place of your torso.

It doesn't work as well because of HSR (lag compensation), but back in the day when you saw a bullet coming your way you could get perfect timing. There were Atlas pilots who would almost literally 'punch' or 'swat' at AC/20 rounds, throwing a fist or forearm in the way of the shot to block it, and they could do this all day rendering themselves nearly invincible.

Such techniques are sort of lost on today's players, though.

....I miss closed beta.
So, soooo much more skill involved.

The arm stub actually can absorb some dam after the arm is destroyed as well. This gives a reduction to dam transfer to the side torso. If the side torso is also destroyed then the dam transfers to the CT at an even further reduced rate. It takes close to 500 dmg to core a stock cent from the arm nub.

The arm nub is almost as large as a side torso on a cent too XD.

[Thorqemada]

I you ever want to use a Shieldarm you first have to test if the Arms can effectively shield.

The Hitboxes of the Arm would hve to cover large parts of your sides Silhouette - a small Arm with small hitboxes does simply not offer cover enough to be any useful and you better spend the weight for something else.

Centurions indeed have good Shieldarms for example, a Hunchback not.

Edited by Thorqemada, 22 September 2014 - 12:48 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Some mechs have arms that are terrible for shielding, though. Blackjack, Catapult.. A K2 with all torso weapons(such as dual AC20s) can easily forgo it's arm armor entirely for an extra ton or two of ammo.

[Koniving]

Ghogiel, on 22 September 2014 - 12:47 AM, said:

The arm nub is almost as large as a side torso on a cent too XD.

True. This is because it reduces damage by 50%, and when the ST is destroyed it also reduces by 50%.
From arm to CT, it's only 25% of any damage you sent into the arm stub going to the CT when both arm and ST are destroyed.

It's about slightly less than half the size of the side torso and relies entirely on the player not looking at the enemy.

I just shoot for the side of the gut when I'm presented with that problem. Also when the hitbox changes were made, those armstubs were shrunken a bit (which is why it's so much smaller now).

Shame they haven't kept updating hitboxes. The Jenner desperately needs it.

Also, the Centurion arm bubble -- while not exclusive to it -- the Centurion is one of the few mechs with one large enough and in the right place to provide solid torso protection.

The Awesome has a huge one as well, but it's much too high up that no one would ever shoot there.

Pretty much few if any other mechs benefit from this missing arm thing.

Edited by Koniving, 22 September 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[UrsusMorologus]

A light mech with no weapons in the arm, you might as well drop to 1, because (a) you need to avoid getting hit in the first place, and ( it will probably get blown off as soon as its hit anyway. Speed is life to a light.

Heavier mech, you need to use it for shielding. You are too slow to dodge bullets and there's no healing. Hit-points are life to a heavy.

[dragnier1]

I don't think you could get much weight by removing armour from the arms, e armour is pretty light compared to most of the equipment.

Edited by dragnier1, 22 September 2014 - 07:11 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

UrsusMorologus, on 22 September 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

A light mech with no weapons in the arm, you might as well drop to 1, because (a) you need to avoid getting hit in the first place, and ( it will probably get blown off as soon as its hit anyway. Speed is life to a light.

Heavier mech, you need to use it for shielding. You are too slow to dodge bullets and there's no healing. Hit-points are life to a heavy.

On a light, I wouldn't remove any points of armor, unless it's a locust, and even then I still want max whenever possible.

You're not saving much weight, since there aren't that many points to begin with. Especially if they are using FF, and most lights do use FF.

[Elizander]

Most of the time you can still get some survivability with arm armor unless it's a K2.

Edited by Elizander, 22 September 2014 - 11:34 AM.