78 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Deathlike, on 26 September 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't think people have seriously understood how the current mech tree of skills actually affects the game.

Run one of the trial mechs... ideally one you have an equivalent elited out or mastered version of the same variant. Build your mech the same/similar to the trial mech.

Play the trial mech for a bit. Try to win 5 games with it (it is an achievement believe it or not when you accomplish this).

Play the mech you own for a bit. Try to win 5 games with it.

See how differently you feel about the trial mech vs the similar mech you put together.

That is how drastic the game looks to the newbie vs that guy that has that mech mastered out.

Just completed this experiment.

My thoughts are pretty brief. The skill tree is pointless, and the only part about trial mechs that are clearly lacking, is the bad designs.

I did it with an Atlas, and with a Spider. I have a Banshee and a long while ago I mastered a locust. The Atlas was poo not because of the things the skill tree effects, but simply because of a diverse loadout. The Gauss is meh, and the lrms are meh, you want one or the other. My Banshee doesnt perform any better, it just has a 53 point alpha.

Now the spider isnt a bad design. Instead of trying to SRM people in the back, im sniping with the LL and engaging when the brawls happen and im the least important target. Basically the same run down. It seemed mildly more sluggish than the mastered locust. Not a game changer by any stretch of the imagination.

I dont see any reason to master a chassis other than your own personal enjoyment. Its not bringing you any real advantage. A great loadout (a great alpha) is the most important thing and you dont need to master something for that. If you dont want to grind out bad variants, or just dont want to grind for whatever reason...dont bother with it. The first section with the anchor turn and arm movement is all you need.

A better experiment would be a stock mech mastered vs the same stock mech, unskilled.

Its not a huge difference though id expect. The important thing really is the speed change thing in the first rung so you can pop out and back into cover as quickly as the other guy, otherwise youre at risk of losing the trading shots bout.

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[Mcgral18]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Just completed this experiment.

My thoughts are pretty brief. The skill tree is pointless, and the only part about trial mechs that are clearly lacking, is the bad designs.

I did it with an Atlas, and with a Spider. I have a Banshee and a long while ago I mastered a locust. The Atlas was poo not because of the things the skill tree effects, but simply because of a diverse loadout. The Gauss is meh, and the lrms are meh, you want one or the other. My Banshee doesnt perform any better, it just has a 53 point alpha.

Now the spider isnt a bad design. Instead of trying to SRM people in the back, im sniping with the LL and engaging when the brawls happen and im the least important target. Basically the same run down. It seemed mildly more sluggish than the mastered locust. Not a game changer by any stretch of the imagination.

I dont see any reason to master a chassis other than your own personal enjoyment. Its not bringing you any real advantage. A great loadout (a great alpha) is the most important thing and you dont need to master something for that. If you dont want to grind out bad variants, or just dont want to grind for whatever reason...dont bother with it. The first section with the anchor turn and arm movement is all you need.

A better experiment would be a stock mech mastered vs the same stock mech, unskilled.

Its not a huge difference though id expect. The important thing really is the speed change thing in the first rung so you can pop out and back into cover as quickly as the other guy, otherwise youre at risk of losing the trading shots bout.

The difference is:

• 20% heat capacity*
  
• 15% cooling*
  
• 45% faster acceletation
  
• 20% faster torso twist range
  
• 50% faster braking
  
• 40% faster torso twist speed*
  
• 30% faster arm movement
  
• 20% faster turning

*Asterisks to denote some very important buffs.

These are what make the mechs so much better than trials.

[KraftySOT]

Mcgral18, on 27 September 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

The difference is:

• 20% heat capacity*
  
• 15% cooling*
  
• 45% faster acceletation
  
• 20% faster torso twist range
  
• 50% faster braking
  
• 40% faster torso twist speed*
  
• 30% faster arm movement
  
• 20% faster turning

*Asterisks to denote some very important buffs.




These are what make the mechs so much better than trials.

Most of that isnt a factor, and half of it comes with the first set of skills you earn for just using the one chassis. List that again with the advantages you get for grinding out 4 chassis.

Any trial mech is instantly better if you buy it, strip it, and rebuild it.

And youre not making a trial mech better by mastering it, with it still having the stock load out.

Comparing your lulzboat with the first tree, to the mastered tree, is peanuts. Youre not getting an extra alpha strike out of it, and you should have killed anything you came up against before youre turning, or at close range where the speed of your arms or torso matter.

The only ones that come in handy are the accel and braking, which allows you less exposure time if youre sniping. And thats in the first tree. And only if youre not jump sniping.

Mastering is just for people who want to do it. Its by no means necessary to be competitive.

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 06:18 PM.

[Mcgral18]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Most of that isnt a factor, and half of it comes with the first set of skills you earn for just using the one chassis. List that again with the advantages you get for grinding out 4 chassis.

Any trial mech is instantly better if you buy it, strip it, and rebuild it.

And youre not making a trial mech better by mastering it, with it still having the stock load out.

Comparing your lulzboat with the first tree, to the mastered tree, is peanuts. Youre not getting an extra alpha strike out of it, and you should have killed anything you came up against before youre turning, or at close range where the speed of your arms or torso matter.

The only ones that come in handy are the accel and braking, which allows you less exposure time if youre sniping. And thats in the first tree. And only if youre not jump sniping.

Mastering is just for people who want to do it. Its by no means necessary to be competitive.

40% extra torso twist speed is BIG.

Mechs without those bonuses are gimped in comparison. You can still do well, but by no means as close as you can get with them. They make a hefty difference.

[Squally160]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 06:17 PM, said:

Most of that isnt a factor, and half of it comes with the first set of skills you earn for just using the one chassis. List that again with the advantages you get for grinding out 4 chassis.

Any trial mech is instantly better if you buy it, strip it, and rebuild it.

And youre not making a trial mech better by mastering it, with it still having the stock load out.

Comparing your lulzboat with the first tree, to the mastered tree, is peanuts. Youre not getting an extra alpha strike out of it, and you should have killed anything you came up against before youre turning, or at close range where the speed of your arms or torso matter.

The only ones that come in handy are the accel and braking, which allows you less exposure time if youre sniping. And thats in the first tree. And only if youre not jump sniping.

Mastering is just for people who want to do it. Its by no means necessary to be competitive.

Half a bunch of that for not having 3 mechs pas the first branch of skills as well.

Namely, heat cap/dis, torso twist, acceleration and braking.

[DivineEvil]

I've always seen a future skill tree as a forked table similar to one of League of Legends masteries, where you earn Mech XP to allow for additional perks to be unlocked up to a cap with the ability to reset the tree for couple of GXP, adressing a broad bandwidth of mech stats. The ones that are missing but might be brought up are JJ thrust, JJ capacity, Legged Speed, Uphill deceleration, Fall damage, Additional tonnage, crit slot reduction for Upgrades, Weapon stats, Weapon Door open time, Zoom Ratio, additional Module slots, individual Module stats, Crit multipliers, C-Bill/XP gain and/or some other, divided into three general categories of Equipment, Mobility and Expertise, so that you can pick and choose them for each mech variant. That would really make each mech specialized and suited for specific playstyle.

[KhanCipher]

Honestly the entire mech skill system is terribad, mostly because after you fully elite a mech it becomes near TT stats in speed like the Dire Whale has a speed of 54kph in the TT record sheet, but in MWO it gets to 53.5kph after getting speed tweak, but the exception is that any mech that goes 4/6 stock on TT goes it's listed speed on sarna in MWO. and heat sinking capabilities like a mech with 10 internal DHS (true 2.0 DHS), and 10 external DHS (1.4 crapshot DHS) gets an average of 1.9 per DHS after getting elited.

[Redshift2k5]

The record sheet speed is because of weird rounding because in TT a mech can't travel a fraction of a hex.

All MWO mechs travel the speed they should travel based on engine size and mech weight; they only differ from TT because MWO is not forced to round it off to give a mech more speed than it should for it's current engine.

[Mcgral18]

KhanCipher, on 27 September 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Honestly the entire mech skill system is terribad, mostly because after you fully elite a mech it becomes near TT stats in speed like the Dire Whale has a speed of 54kph in the TT record sheet, but in MWO it gets to 53.5kph after getting speed tweak, but the exception is that any mech that goes 4/6 stock on TT goes it's listed speed on sarna in MWO. and heat sinking capabilities like a mech with 10 internal DHS (true 2.0 DHS), and 10 external DHS (1.4 crapshot DHS) gets an average of 1.9 per DHS after getting elited.

If you have 17 or fewer DHS, you get more than 2.0 dissipation per heatsink. At 18+ DHS, you start going progressively under 2.0.

At 10 engine DHS, you have a cooling of 2.0*1.15=2.3, 30% better cooling than TT.

[KraftySOT]

Mcgral18, on 27 September 2014 - 06:25 PM, said:

40% extra torso twist speed is BIG.

Mechs without those bonuses are gimped in comparison. You can still do well, but by no means as close as you can get with them. They make a hefty difference.

Maybe its my play style but I dont see the big deal with torso twist. The only time it matters is very close engagements or dodging damage..and most of the time that means lrms which gives you plenty of time to twist, as well as between your alphas.

Most of my engagements are medium range, even tho ive been running ac/20, 2xlplas 2xmplas. Sames pretty much true no matter what im piloting unless its a light.

If you want to run in with a light and zip around...probably has some use there, but for me, its non issue.

Also heat I dont notice since any loadout not hitting ghost heat is manageable.

Ill never master a mech again unless I can do it for GXP in one swoop.

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[KhanCipher]

Mcgral18, on 27 September 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

If you have 17 or fewer DHS, you get more than 2.0 dissipation per heatsink. At 18+ DHS, you start going progressively under 2.0.

At 10 engine DHS, you have a cooling of 2.0*1.15=2.3, 30% better cooling than TT.

True, but most builds nowadays usually either have 18+ DHS (most assaults, some heavies, or any energy heavy mech) or fewer than 14 DHS total (Light mechs, lighter mediums, ballistic based builds, and i think the usual AS7-D-DC build does have fewer than 15 DHS)

[KraftySOT]

10% speed and a module slot. Thats really all you get for grinding out 4 variants....

Worthless.

The 3x ... meh, its such a small increase really its not a big deal over the basic.

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 07:27 PM.

[DivineEvil]

Why do you need 4 variants any way? Three is enough on basic, and you can sell two you don't like if you have some mech already pimped in the same weight class...

[KraftySOT]

Three, my bad.

Ive done it twice, wont do it again. All im saying. For me to waste my time like that again, theyd all at least have to do something, and modules would have to come down in price or easily be switchable.

Its just not worth it. Will I be mastering a Direwolf? Nope. Will I be mastering my Battlemaster missile boat? Nope.

Maaaybe ill master a great light if the quirks are good enough to make them worth piloting.

[Mcgral18]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Three, my bad.

Ive done it twice, wont do it again. All im saying. For me to waste my time like that again, theyd all at least have to do something, and modules would have to come down in price or easily be switchable.

Its just not worth it. Will I be mastering a Direwolf? Nope. Will I be mastering my Battlemaster missile boat? Nope.

Maaaybe ill master a great light if the quirks are good enough to make them worth piloting.

You don't even need to master it. You play the other 2 until basic'ed, then you play the one you enjoy as you normally would until you get the 2x bonuses. That's all there is too it. Painless, aside from the 1.5 million DHS tax.

[Squally160]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

Three, my bad.

Ive done it twice, wont do it again. All im saying. For me to waste my time like that again, theyd all at least have to do something, and modules would have to come down in price or easily be switchable.

Its just not worth it. Will I be mastering a Direwolf? Nope. Will I be mastering my Battlemaster missile boat? Nope.

Maaaybe ill master a great light if the quirks are good enough to make them worth piloting.

Ive got a few chassis mastered, and ill gladly do it again for any other chassis, the perks are more than worth it.

However, the trees do need to be actual trees, with choices, or something. Right now its just a time tax to maximum effectiveness.

[FitzSimmons]

+1 vote for the mech skills being great.

1) I was never sure what Pinpoint actually did, and it was usually the last one I picked up. Personally, a fully elite mech is better for the 2x mods of the basic skills, more than the elite skills. Additional 10% Anchor Turn is great on the lights and mediums I play, and an additional 7.5% heat dissipation and 10% heat capacity means I almost never shut down unless I plan it. Fully elite Kinetic Burst and Quick Ignition combined are also quite nice for lights/mediums on certain maps (HPG and Mining for example).

2) Fully elite-ing a mech feels like an achievement, and I don't think that should be taken from the game. Slugging it out with a crappy variant is rewarding. Of course, I'm coming from the MMO side...

3) Working on chassis has caused me to turn my opinion on them, whereas I might not from the start and dropped it. For example, when I first started my Cicada, I hated the lack of jump jets and had trouble adjusting to lower armor values and firepower than other mediums. After a while, it clicked and now I post higher numbers reliably with that chassis than any other I own.

[Deathlike]

KraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

My thoughts are pretty brief. The skill tree is pointless, and the only part about trial mechs that are clearly lacking, is the bad designs.

There are some obvious bad designs... like say CASE in the Kintaro trial champion (aka, completely useless). That's besides the point.

If you're talking about how torso twist doesn't affect you much, or how high heat builds don't affect you (especially if you just build Gauss Jagers or Gauss Cats), then I don't know how to convince you otherwise.

As some would say... you are probably playing a very different game from the rest of us.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 September 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Bront]

I like the idea of adding 100M to the radar range as a quick replacement for Convergence. Possibly the best skill suggestion I've seen. Helps all mechs, and isn't that overpowered.