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Maybe Starting Cw With The Clans Was A Bad Idea.


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#21 Johnny Reb

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 12:36 AM

View PostAdran, on 27 September 2014 - 12:33 AM, said:


I would actually classify it as a mech simulator. Modern "FPS" games as a genre are fast-paced twitch-based kill-fests. That's what pretty much everyone think of when they think of FPS now. As this isn't that, it needs a different classification.

Then you really need to add the moniker "arcade" in.

#22 Wolfways

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 01:05 AM

View PostJohnny Reb, on 27 September 2014 - 12:21 AM, said:

Except this is a fps and not TT, so I imagine they would!

You can imagine it all you like, but that doesn't make it true. And MWO is based on TT...it says so in the logo.

Although having said that, I've thought a few times that PGI wouldn't do something that is counter to the lore and i thought would be a ridiculous thing to do and they proved me wrong...so nothing would surprise me now...

#23 Duncan Jr Fischer

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 01:12 AM

To OP. Not maybe, but absolutely. Being told (not given yet, as always) we'll get CW with the Clans already (and even with the start of Invasion already in the past) I feel robbed of participating in IS faction wars and the Grandest event in Battletech history.

#24 Joe Mallad

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 04:10 AM

View PostMorang, on 26 September 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

To put it right, with their development pace they had no choice but to design and release the Clans before the cw to keep money coming.
no, they have periphery houses and others like St Ives Compact that they could have included first and 1000's of other planet maps and IS mechs they could have worked on rather than push the clans so fast.

#25 Joe Mallad

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 04:32 AM

[redacted]
i hope you don't think I'm hating on the Clans or saying I don't want them in the game? All I'm trying to say is I believe that PGI should have started CW off with being the succession wars and build up to the clan invasion after a few seasons. And once introduced, they and new clans could come in waves like the lore and the IS would have to fight them back.

From this point, cannon history could change as the NPC clans could get farther into the IS before being stopped. Or we the players of the IS could have pushed them back farther before they eventually get stopped. The map as we know it from cannon might than look completely different when the clan was finally ends.

And FROM THAT POINT would the Now IS Clan a Houses be playable and Clan mechs and tech be allowed to be played across all houses or Merc units because that stuff would be integrated into the IS and all players would be on even playing field.

I just think a lot of the complaint that the clans are OP or Nerfd into oblivion crap could have been avoided if the clans came at the IS as a NPC threat. And only once after fought back and the truce was made, would they be made playable and all clan mechs and tech be opened up for play across all factions... To once again keep everyone on the same playing field. By that time, clan tech would start to be integrated into IS mechs too.

Edited by Egomane, 27 September 2014 - 05:05 AM.
responding to removed content


#26 Koniving

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 07:19 AM

View PostYoseful Mallad, on 26 September 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

Before I get flamed, please hear me out.

I love me some Clan mechs and love the lore of the Clans. Some clans like Wolf and Ghost Bear I absolutely love everything about. Some others like Jaguar, I like a lot too. Some real players that play for the Jaguars, not so much ;)

And growing up, I have always had a hatred for Jade Falcon but they were always meant to be the worst of the "bad guys" IMO.

Anyway, I kind of feel that PGI should have just kept this game IS based with the Houses and Mercs. Maybe even the periphery Houses. And seasons should have been 1 year seasons, with a big bad NPC enemy coming in. In this case, IMO the Clans should have started off as all being a NPC threat to the IS. Only after the players of the IS fought them back, would it then have opened up to us being able to play with Clan mechs and tech. But that would have given PGI plenty of time to figure out the right way to balance the Clans for real human play...before integrating those mechs and tech into the IS to be playable.

Then the Clan war would be over, and those Clans still around would be considered IS Houses as they later became, and we move on with the IS conquest as normal and wait for the next big bad NPC to threaten the IS... Word Of Blake.



Hm. While I agree that the Clan invasion should have come after some time to test the CW waters... there's a few problems that I see with this.

1) First and foremost A.I. can never make up for the cunning of a decent player. To make competent A.I. in general is difficult, to make AI that can play as a mech and be an intimidating threat? Even harder. It would be considerably easier to have started as the Clans and have the IS as A.I. driven NPCs because the typical IS pilot is lower in cognitive ability, slower to react, and in general the incompetence of the A.I. no matter how good or bad could be attributed to "Oh they weren't genetically engineered pilots."

To use AI for the Clans is about like saying the genetically engineered super soldiers in Metal Gear.
(I wish I could find that script. Basically "what does that mean?" "They are virtually deaf, a snail's reflexes, rotten shots and they can barely see 10 feet in front of them.")

2) PGI can hardly keep up with a 1-1 timeline. To reach the Word of Blake in any meaningful amount of time we'd need a 5-1 timeline at the very minimum.

(There was more but I got into a design rant below...)
Spoiler


#27 Joe Mallad

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 07:37 AM

There are many games currently out where the NPC enemy is smart enough to be a threat to real players. So I'm sure PGi could have very easily started the Clans off as the major NPC threat. By biggest issue right now is that they pushed the Clans on us and got people to spend hundreds of dollars on Clan mechs and packages and a lot of those that bought them, now can't use them in CW. If there was no intent for cross tech use from the start, PGI should have said this before EVER selling any clan mechs.

Like I said, I love me some clans. But if I knew my Merc unit would not be able to use our clan mechs in CW, I would never have wasted the money on mechs I can't use. And would have concentrated more on my IS mechs to build them up to better stand against the clans.

The funny thing about all of this is, I have now had 3 guys that have stopped playing, tell me that if this game ends up ranking after all this time and broken promises from PGI... They are willing to start a community wide suit against PGI to get their money back for mechs they can't use and a game they spent money on that seems like its never going to get fixed.

I personally would hate to see it ever come to that.

#28 Joshua McEvedy

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:08 AM

View PostTriordinant, on 26 September 2014 - 09:10 PM, said:

We should have had the Succession Wars for a year or two while they were making the Clans instead of the endless deathmatch we're still having. First year: Level 1 Tech, second year: Level 2 Tech, third year: Clan Invasion.


Although I really like the game as it is now, warts and all, I do agree with this sentiment. PGI probably should have started in 3025 with the Successor States (and Periphery nations) at each others throats and Wolf's Dragoons still making the rounds. That way, everyone would have started on a level playing field with a single, long-standing technology base with a solid stable of IS battlemechs.

Then, perhaps by introducing "seasons" (like STO) or "game years" into subsequent development, integrate events such as the discovery of the Helm Memory Core in 3028 and the 4th Succession War, the Andurien Crisis of the 3030s, the Ronin War of 3034, the War of 3039, the various "brush wars," the Clan War, the FedCom Civil War, and finally the Word of Blake Jihad, which is more than enough material to keep the game alive for many years, with lots of opportunities for new players joining in at any point.

PGI could have also done a Clan-only game, beginning in 3048, with the Clans bidding and battling amongst themselves to participate in the invasion of the IS, and then launching the actual operation, similar to the old Mechwarrior games of the 1990s. That would have been really cool.

Just MHO.

Edited by Joshua McEvedy, 27 September 2014 - 08:15 AM.


#29 Joshua McEvedy

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:12 AM

View PostWolfways, on 27 September 2014 - 12:14 AM, said:

Except clans would not give mercs missions.


And the Clans also execute both mercs and pirates on sight. It's a cultural thing.

#30 Livewyr

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:15 AM

They may yet be able to do "off seasons" (2 seasons with clans, 1 season with just IS... I think it might be just as simple as greying out the clan faction tabs for that particular season.)

Am I in favor of that? On the fence. I love me some 3025 tech... but at the same time, that would alienate an entire (rather large) subset of the player base for a season. (Not good PR)

Perhaps in the future, they can have a season divided up for pre-Revival. (two maps: 1 IS for ISvIS battles, and one set for clans battling between their planets, or some such fiddle-faddle..)

They would also have to work out what mechs would be available in the ISvsIS.. (AWS-9M and CN9-D, for examples..and likewise with the clans.)

#31 Joe Mallad

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:17 AM

View PostJoshua McEvedy, on 27 September 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:


Although I really like the game as it is now, warts and all, I do agree with this sentiment. PGI probably should have started in 3025 with the Successor States (and Periphery nations) at each others throats and Wolf's Dragoons still making the rounds. That way, everyone would have started on a level playing field with a single, long-standing technology base with a solid stable of IS battlemechs.

Then, perhaps by introducing "seasons" (like STO) or "game years" into subsequent development, integrate events such as the discovery of the Helm Memory Core in 3028 and the 4th Succession War, the Andurien Crisis of the 3030s, the Ronin War of 3034, the War of 3039, the various "brush wars," the Clan War, the FedCom Civil War, and finally the Word of Blake Jihad, which is more than enough material to keep the game alive for many years, with lots of opportunities for new players joining in at any point.

PGI could have also done a Clan-only game, beginning in 3048, with the Clans bidding and battling amongst themselves to participate in the invasion of the IS, and then launching the actual operation, similar to the old Mechwarrior games of the 1990s. That would have been really cool.

Just MHO.
this! I love the way STO is doing their seasons and even the NPC threats. This is exactly what I was getting at with what they could have and probably should have done with the Clans to start.

#32 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:20 AM

Money, money, money.

And don't let this IGP stuff fool you, PGI is still allllll about the money.

Clan Wave II and now talks of another IS package already?

Pretty sure they stated multiple times they wouldn't release more packages before CW....but here you are.

#33 Livewyr

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:22 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 27 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

And don't let this IGP stuff fool you, PGI is still allllll about the money.


What for-profit company is not?

(PGI is being much smarter about it.)

#34 Joe Mallad

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:31 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 27 September 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

Money, money, money.

And don't let this IGP stuff fool you, PGI is still allllll about the money.

Clan Wave II and now talks of another IS package already?

Pretty sure they stated multiple times they wouldn't release more packages before CW....but here you are.
im ok with them releasing more mechs and packages. They can keep them coming. I just wish they would get maps out faster. This 1 map every so often is just not cool. We should have at least a hundred planets to fight over at the start of CW and we might have what... From the sounds of it, not even half that many and many maps will share the same old maps lol.

And as I said already, I I had know FROM THE START that I could not use Clan mech in CW if I'm a IS player or Merc Player, I would not have bought any Clan mechs yet. I really feel like PGI took a lot of people's money on this when we should have know this bit of info before any Clan mechs were ever sold.

#35 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:32 AM

View PostLivewyr, on 27 September 2014 - 08:22 AM, said:


What for-profit company is not?

(PGI is being much smarter about it.)


Not really, you are all the same gullible fools you've always been. I don't care if Russ went from making 2 posts a week to 10 posts a week.

Game is still exactly the same. I logged in after a 3 month lay off....same game.

CW is going to be a waste of time because they are still putting off maps, modes and creating a more dynamic game with role warfare to release more mechs.

#36 KraftySOT

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:35 AM

Yeah I think everything would have been easier on everyone if they started in 3025 and went from there. Its so much easier to balance less weapons and no clans. Then they could have focused on the backend...things like salvage, bonuses, CW, logistics, more maps etc.

You can always add things later. And charge for it.

Most of the founders were TT people, and people very very familiar with the series. Theyd have stuck out 3025 in the closed beta and still pumped out money. Then after all the backend functions well, theyd shell out for the clans.

Youd think CW should have been out last year, and the Clan packs should just now be being released for the first time or very early next year.

I understand they have to generate income, but im sure they could have done that selling you an ER weapons package, a sensor package, etc, when those things start coming out.

Be the first person to have an ER PPC!

I believe they made it harder on themselves by picking an advanced point in time in the timeline. Sure everyone loves clans, and Timber wolves and such...but those things are a given. If youve got the license for the next 5 or 6 years...dont blow your wad in year 1/2.

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 08:35 AM.


#37 Nicholas Carlyle

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:37 AM

View PostKraftySOT, on 27 September 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Yeah I think everything would have been easier on everyone if they started in 3025 and went from there. Its so much easier to balance less weapons and no clans. Then they could have focused on the backend...things like salvage, bonuses, CW, logistics, more maps etc.


Totally agree, if PGI had ever figured out how to do REAL micro-transactions, they really could have had something.

#38 Livewyr

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:42 AM

View PostNicholas Carlyle, on 27 September 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:


Not really, you are all the same gullible fools you've always been. I don't care if Russ went from making 2 posts a week to 10 posts a week.

Game is still exactly the same. I logged in after a 3 month lay off....same game.

CW is going to be a waste of time because they are still putting off maps, modes and creating a more dynamic game with role warfare to release more mechs.


Right...

No new map.
No more clan mechs inbound.
No balancing pass to bring Cmechs closer to balance.
No increased forum presence and player involvement.
No incoming CW..


You are a blind fool who refuses to admit something has changed.. because then you might be "wrong" and you cannot have that.

#39 KraftySOT

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:45 AM

And not to mention...theyre done with mech packs....theres no more mechs to pack together to sell to people.

Youre not gonna find 4-5 more mechs that EVERYONE wants to stick together to sell people.

If PGIs business plan revolves around this idea of doing these big pushes for income via big bundles of digital "stuff"...theyre freaking screwed.

Buy a Fenris, Hunchback IIc, Rifleman IIc and get a Stone Rhino for free?

Yeah like .... 12 people are going to buy that. Granted theyll love it...but if thats your business model...dude...fix that.

Yeah the micro transaction man...they needed microtransactions. Real ones. Like...a dollar. 50 cents. 3 dollars.

If youre in 3025...theres SO MUCH STUFF coming down the pipe "eventually"...and you can charge a tiny bit for all of it.

Instead...its, heres a free non p2w game, that works like NP freaking R with the funding drives.

#40 KraftySOT

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 08:49 AM

NPR online. Supported by players like you!

Its real warm and fuzzy, but it seems like a tragic miscalculation. What on earth are they going to sell you now to make any money? Everyones got an Atlas, Timber Wolf, Dire Wolf and theyre getting a King Crab and theres a Yenlowang.

You already have everything everyone whose ever played these games want, out already, and before the year is out, will be able to be aquired, free of charge.

So in two years...wtf is PGI going to do to keep the lights on? Sell MCs and Camos?

Hock 2nd line clan mechs and IS mechs no one but us TTers have ever heard of, when theres really only 6-10 "legitimate" builds, total, thus making the effective number of mechs in the game, less than the number of actual mechs in the game?

How is that sustainable?

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 September 2014 - 08:50 AM.






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