44 replies to this topic

[That Guy]

the OP is correct in saying that Clan LRMs have an advantage in damage ton of ammo per ton of ammo over IS ones. this is ESPECIALLY true for larger launchers, the 15 and 20. this is because of the small grouping of the missiles. the IS LRM 20 is virtually useless against anything because its area of effect is so large, unless it is fired from a point that has few missile ports, and to a degree the 15 as well (a ton of missiles has the same potential damage if fried from a 5 or 20). However, the reason you guys are saying IS launchers are better is because of the LRM 5. they are able to more efficiently focus their damage have a great rate of fire, and waste less missiles, and can easily get kills and cores. Add in an Artemis and large groups of 5s are absolutely deadly. This same principle applies to the large clan LRM launchers. They have very good grouping, and waste less missiles.


I did a test on the testing grounds about a week ago (HPG manifold) and used the AS7-K as the target to determine relative effectiveness of IS and clan LRMs (at the time I was testing the effectiveness of the AMS on the streamed clan lrms). I used an ullar, and a treb armed with a 15 and one ton of ammo each. Then I did the same with the treb with 2 lrm 5. I fired at the atlas at an angle from the entrance so that most of the shots would land on its side torso. The IS launcher was unable to kill the atlas, but did strip the torso. However the clan launcher did result in a kill. Additionally the AMS shot down FEWER clan LRMs and at a shorter range. Trying to count it seemed that it would shoot down 3-5 per volley as opposed to the 5-8 from the IS launcher. With the 2 lrm 5 again the armor was stripped but no kill

So yes, clan LRMs are more deadly because more clan mechs have the weight to carry large launchers with the ammo to feed them, and very favorable narrow missile spread means those big launchers focus damage better and are better able to resist AMS than their IS counterparts.

[Wolfways]

El Bandito, on 28 September 2014 - 10:28 PM, said:

I personally prefer Clan LRM's flatter firing arc over that of an IS one. IS missiles take too long to arrive to the target, and are completely useless in lower saddle/tunnel fights.

It is pretty funny that although I think IS LRMs are slightly superior to that of Clan ones overall, IS LRMs are totally worthless in Clan vs IS matches. Trading long range fire with the Clanners is just stupid.

Therefore IS LRMs are going to be useless come CW, unless the ECM rework goes through.

Well LRM's in MWO aren't actually long range thanks to the incoming missiles warning. Remove the warning and LRM's might be more viable where they do more damage than direct-fire weapons at longer ranges.
Until that warning is removed LRM's will always be MRM's

[RustyBolts]

Let me see.....I can get one massive salvo that hits all at once, allows most missiles to get past AMS, does not allow time to torso twist to spread damage and allows for a reduced exposure time to fire.

or I can have one that does the exact opposite of everything listed......



mmmmm I vote bulk fire.

This is just like those who think the Clan UAC spread damage is better than the IS point damage.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

I've also noticed IS missiles seem to mess with the electronics of your HUD so each time I get hit the reticle and everything else goes fuzzy. This in combination with the impact shake can make it nearly impossible to aim. So other than the weight disadvantage, IS LRMs IMO are much more powerful.

[Gyrok]

Kiiyor, on 28 September 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

I'm actually of the opinion that IS LRM's are more powerful than Clan ones, despite the extra weight. The IS missiles tend to hit in one go, and make a mockery of torso twisting.

The strength of the Clan missiles in in stun-lock.

Yes IS LRMs are OP, PGI PLZ NERF.
In all seriousness though, IS LRMs are better. AMS does much less to a massive volley of LRMs. AdditionalLy they are much more difficult to spread damage.

Edited by Gyrok, 29 September 2014 - 06:59 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

In my experience the weight of the LRM ammo is more important than the weight of the LRM launcher. I have expended a full load of 3000 missiles during some matches. On LRM boats I use a minimum of 10 tons of LRM ammo. An easy way to fine tune the balance would be to adjust the ammo per ton numbers.

Adjusting IS vs Clan screen shake would also be a good balancing tool. Or even reduce the flight speed of clan missles.

Edited by 911 Inside Job, 29 September 2014 - 06:04 AM.

[DasSibby]

I actually agree on a few points. (Even though I hate LRMS). So here's my idea.

*Ahem* Clan LRMs weigh less than IS LRMs. In my opinion, if a weapon weighs more, it should either A. Shoot faster (think AC vs. Ultra AC), or B. Hurt more (think Medium Lazer vs. Large Lazer.) Some may say, "Blob vs. Stream! Blob hurts more!" That may be true... but only if it hits. In short, missile for missile I think IS missiles should hurt more because they weigh more.

Solution? Perhaps make Clan missiles run much hotter to compensate. Less mass=less heat dissipation (think of a thin gun barrel heating up quicker than a heavy barrel). I think that would really help.

There's my 0.02 cents. Take em' or leave em'.

*edited for typos

Edited by DasSibby, 29 September 2014 - 06:01 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Hillslam, on 28 September 2014 - 09:36 PM, said:

Silly OP, you are not allowed to suggest nerfs to clan mechs here. The neckbeards have hissies if you do.

Perhaps he could have chosen one of the correct items.

cLRMs are not among those.

[Gyrok]

DasSibby, on 29 September 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

I actually agree on a few points. (Even though I hate LRMS). So here's my idea.

*Ahem* Clan LRMs weigh less than IS LRMs. In my opinion, if a weapon weighs more, it should either A. Shoot faster (think AC vs. Ultra AC), or B. Hurt more (think Medium Lazer vs. Large Lazer.) Some may say, "Blob vs. Stream! Blob hurts more!" That may be true... but only if it hits. In short, missile for missile I think IS missiles should hurt more because they weigh more.

Solution? Perhaps make Clan missiles run much hotter to compensate. Less mass=less heat dissipation (think of a thin gun barrel heating up quicker than a heavy barrel). I think that would really help.

There's my 0.02 cents. Take em' or leave em'.

*edited for typos

Clans do not need hotter LRMs. As it is they are deficient against IS mechs...

[Mordin Ashe]

OP, while I respect your opinion I must state that you have no idea what you talk about. On Clan Mechs, LRMs are a complementary weapon at best and their LRMs are incredibly vulnerable to AMS. IS LRMs are strong and don't have to care about AMS much, because it would require 4-5 AMS to shot down significant number of missiles. Boat LRM60 and you are safe. Clan LRMs are very vulnerable even to single AMS and often 4 Mechs with AMS = Clan LRMs do 0 damage, no matter how many CLRMs you take. Yes, Clan launchers are very light, but the trade-off is that they are useless. There is a good reason why so many Clan Mechs pack any other missile system except for LRMs.

How can anyone not notice that and pretend to do constructive posts on forums is over my head.

EDIT: I have over 700 games in IS LRM boats and over 300 in Clan LRM boats. I am not the most experienced player out there, but I am more experienced than most and IS LRMs are simply supperior in the only atribute that matters and that is damage application

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 29 September 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Hardin4188]

I don't understand why people just want to make all kinds of fake balance issues with clan mechs. It must be something special with the online gaming crowd, but the more this diverges from tabletop the worse it becomes. Now Piranha does a good job a of balancing and some tt rules don't translate well, but you can't nerf clan mechs into oblivion. They are supposed to be better.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Rhent, on 28 September 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

The current LRM gap between the IS and Clan is a very large gap for an IS mech to span with current weight/critical hit differences between IS and Clan launchers. There is no comparison between my Stalker and Madcat LRM boats, my Madcat wins all the time.

LRM Problems:
1st. Clan LRMs weigh significantly less and take up less critical hit space

2nd. Mech Chassis limitations IS engines limit IS mech to slower mechs with less DHS in the engines.

3rd. The attempt to make Clan Mechs be less appealing by making them stream is not enough. Streamed missiles group better than the massed IS LRM's.

LRM Fixes:
1st. Increase the stream time for Clan LRM's by 50% to give AMS more time to chew them up. For IS mechs to take advantage of this, they will have to equip AMS. It would also give IS mechs a better chance to escape.

2nd. Add Missile Bay doors to all Clan Mechs. If they want to fire missiles in a group then they need to have those bay doors open and open themselves up to increased damage.

3rd. Look at releasing an IS Missile based mech with JJ in the 70-85 ton range with an engine limit of 345 rating to give it 4 DHS in the engine with the missile tubes in the Torsos (at least with 4X10 tubes if not a higher tube rating) and not the arms.


Mechs Comparison

Stalker 3H
LRM 50 / 1800 rds
62.9 KPH
12 DHS
No JJ
496 Armor
Tag
3 ML
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b2e3364954d8808

Madcat
LRM 60 / 1800 rds
62.8 KPH
15 DHS
1 JJ
441 Armor
Tag
1 CERML
2 CERSL
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...21a8c242332291f

Oh and here I was thinking you were going to complain about how much worse Clan LRMs were compared to IS LRMs because you do realize that IS LRMs are leaps and bounds better right?

First, they are much less effected by defensive AMS fire, probably to the tune of almost twice as effective. Second, the streaming nature of the Clan LRMs greatly reduces the effectiveness of using Artemis to the point that I don't feel there is really any benefit to mounting Artemis for LRM usage on Clan mechs. Third the streaming nature of Clan LRMs makes it much easier to avoid at least part of the LRMs fired, basically they don't all come in one fell swoop but rather take a second or so to all hit. This in turn means they get spread across the target or easily miss all together as the enemy manages to get into cover.

To offset these disadvantages, Clans have lighter weight launchers which allow them to mount more tubes giving them a bit greater weight of fire but honestly, it isn't quite enough to offset all their disadvantages.

[Almond Brown]

aniviron, on 28 September 2014 - 09:23 PM, said:

stuff

it's with the Timberwolf, which is crazy fast and has ridiculous armor even when mounting lots of weaponry.

more stuff

Why is this silly talk still being perpetuated?

Timberwolf (Heavy) - 462 points of armor (max)

Orion (Heavy) - 462 points of armor (max)

As for speed. An Orion with a 360XL runs 4kph slower (81kph vs 77kph).

Load-outs and Armor distribution are a personal preference and Heat Balance can make a huge difference. The Prime has 10 + 5 + 2 DHS (27%). The Orion 10 + 3 + 5 DHS (39%)

The Orion is short a MG and runs LRM15's, otherwise they are quite similar. The Prime has Range but that is a Clan trait and must be accounted for by the IS pilot, not his/her Mech.

P.S. The incoming Clan XL Engine nerf will make things even closer and piss off a lot of folks no doubt.

Edited by Almond Brown, 29 September 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Lynx7725]

Almond Brown, on 29 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Why is this silly talk still being perpetuated?

Because as a general whole, the population remains largely unfamiliar with the mathematical model behind the table top game. Or if familiar, chooses to ignore it for convenience.

For the uninitiated:

A Clan mech vs. an Inner Sphere mech at the same tonnage, without upgrades is dead equivalent. The difference then will come largely in weaponry.

Clan upgrades such as Endosteel and FF primarily are better than IS by being lighter and less bulky, freeing up more tonnage and space for weaponry.. but inherently does not have other advantages over IS equivalent. XL engines is the one place with a clear advantage, as Clan XL is more tolerant of damage. Even Clan DHS, on paper, was only less bulky.

Other than that, it's the clan weaponry that has the most marked difference. Lighter, more damage, smaller means Clan Mech on table top could carry more, and the Clan DHS, ES and FF upgrades adds to this. But Clan Mechs are still fundamentally constrained by the same model that IS mechs function under -- same amount of internal structure damage, same maximum armour allowed, etc.

[aniviron]

Almond Brown, on 29 September 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Why is this silly talk still being perpetuated?

Timberwolf (Heavy) - 462 points of armor (max)

Orion (Heavy) - 462 points of armor (max)

As for speed. An Orion with a 360XL runs 4kph slower (81kph vs 77kph).

Load-outs and Armor distribution are a personal preference and Heat Balance can make a huge difference. The Prime has 10 + 5 + 2 DHS (27%). The Orion 10 + 3 + 5 DHS (39%)

The Orion is short a MG and runs LRM15's, otherwise they are quite similar. The Prime has Range but that is a Clan trait and must be accounted for by the IS pilot, not his/her Mech.

P.S. The incoming Clan XL Engine nerf will make things even closer and piss off a lot of folks no doubt.

Yep, they have the same armor. But have you ever run an XL engine in an Orion? It's a death sentence. You're dead as soon as one of those side torsi pops unlike in a Timberwolf. The TBR runs an XL275 for 26.5 tons at 89 kph. The Orion is forced to run a Std 305 engine at 26.5 tons, but 72kph.

And so sure, with maxed armor and the same tonnage distribution in the engine, both mechs get the same amount of tonnage to throw around, which is great, they're equal, right? ;] Except that the TBR's missiles weigh half of what the Orion's do, and the DHS only take up two slots.

So for the same weight as an Orion, a TBR goes 20kph faster, has the same armor, gets options for jumpjets, incredibly flexible weapon hardpoints, and can mount far more weapons and heatsinks because even though both mechs have the same amount of free weight, the TBR's weapons weigh less.

Yeah, that seems fair.

[Lynx7725]

aniviron, on 29 September 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Yep, they have the same armor. But have you ever run an XL engine in an Orion? It's a death sentence. You're dead as soon as one of those side torsi pops unlike in a Timberwolf. The TBR runs an XL275 for 26.5 tons at 89 kph. The Orion is forced to run a Std 305 engine at 26.5 tons, but 72kph.

And so sure, with maxed armor and the same tonnage distribution in the engine, both mechs get the same amount of tonnage to throw around, which is great, they're equal, right? ;] Except that the TBR's missiles weigh half of what the Orion's do, and the DHS only take up two slots.

Shrug. I run my Orion with XL and missiles, and I do alright with it.

[Marcel Bekker]

IS LRM - Indirect Fire support/bombardement weapon, useless at short range
Clan LRM - Direct Fire long/medium range complementary weapon, ineffective in Indirect Fire role

Thats it. Just like with everything else, weapons, mechs etc. ...use them in their intended role and they do the job. Use them wrong and they suck. Clan LRMs boated for artillery usage is a perfect and easily neutered example. You are not supposed to use them with dozens of tons worth of reloads, 1 or 2 tons of ammo per launcher is more than enough.

Edited by Marcel Bekker, 29 September 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Leaving the doors open makes no difference. Closing them gives you a bonus related to damage mitigation in some way that I can't recall. Giving doors to clan mechs would only give them a bonus.

[Tezcatli]

Even with the AMS working better against Clan LRMs. They're still half the weigh to the IS equivalent.

[Augustus Martelus II]

If clan lrms get nerf....at the point they are....they won t be useful anymore even for a clan LRM boat.

I m more a close range brawler or ambusher but i find clan missiles way more easier to avoid. I even find them easy to avoid.