48 replies to this topic

[Rebas Kradd]

I think the community has already demonstrated to Russ that the ONLY consensus we have on ECM is that it's not right. We do not have a consensus on how to fix it.

That consensus, of course, is what the player council is supposed to attain, but don't get your hopes up. The council can take every suggestion, but it can't send every one of them onwards to PGI, not when some of them contradict others. Chunks of the community will not be satisfied.

Additionally, ECM is not the source of this particular branch of troubles. There are other, more fundamental problems that should be revisited, such as LRM implementation and map size, before ECM is addressed.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 29 September 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[DocBach]

Mcgral18, on 29 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Actually, Stealth armour is TT/lore.

It costs 10 heat per turn/1 heat per second (turning your DHS into SHS) and 12 crit slots.

Also, only works for the unit its installed on, and when its turned on the unit is affected as if it is in an enemy ECM field meaning it won't work with and disable its own artemis, C3, beagle, etc.

Edited by DocBach, 29 September 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[Davers]

The fact that all discussion about it seems to have ceased tells me the council has been picked and NDAs have been signed.

[Dracol]

Mcgral18, on 29 September 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Actually, Stealth armour is TT/lore.

It costs 10 heat per turn/1 heat per second (turning your DHS into SHS) and 12 crit slots.

....which is derived from the radar negation that stealth fighter jets receive from specialized paint and overall design


I just prefer starting at the root of an issue

[DocBach]

Dracol, on 29 September 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

....which is derived from the radar negation that stealth fighter jets receive from specialized paint and overall design


I just prefer starting at the root of an issue

Stealth armor in battletech is a little more than that -- the fluff states that beyond angles and materials making it deflect radar, it also traps heat inside the 'Mech with baffles (which is why it gets the +10 heat a turn) which makes it difficult to detect by IR sensors. It would be less shiny in heat vision mode, which would be a cool little function of it.

However it doesn't come out in the time line for a long time.

ECM, by the lore and rules, is pretty potent, but not nearly as potent as we have it in MWO for the fact that it does not effect the targeting of missiles. It makes targets more difficult to spot beyond line of sight (sensors in Battletech can see through walls and obstacles), but units in Battletech can make attacks against ECM 'Mechs with any weapons, including missiles without problem. There is a third mode that makes it more difficult for attacks against it, which could be interpreted in real time as generating longer lock on times against 'Mechs protected by ECM.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

The above document outlines the differences between ECM in Battletech and MWO -- its a long read, and I didn't really dispel the myths that we see regarding "indirect fire having a requirement of C3," or that "all 'Mechs have free C3" that we see tossed around a lot on the forums, but it goes over what ECM in the Battletech universe pretty in depth. The solution at the end is still sort of overpowered compared to what ECM should do, and somewhat obsoletes stealth armor still, but since we probably will never see actual stealth armor my proposal leaves a little bit of stealth function to not totally eliminate the role of light 'mech snipers from the game.

Edited by DocBach, 29 September 2014 - 04:00 PM.

[Dracol]

DocBach, on 29 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

-snip-

Very informative look into ECM. The history recap was refreshing. Reading through it, found an inaccuraccy during the overview part:

"The absence of radar presence made gaining missile locks impossible unless ECM was countered by friendly ECM. "Not impossible since there is that sweet spot beyond jamming but before radar null.

In regards to suggested changes, seeing how each change was inspired by the BT rules lends your suggestion a lot of weight. One attribute not covered was if any abilities stacked with other ECMs. I would guess, no for most?

I'd support the extension of the sweet spot, but not the removal of the null sig ability. The ability for flanking to exist within MW:O, imho, is reliant on ECM's ability to force a player to visually spot flankers moving from cover to cover.

Overall though, your proposal is thought out, directly addresses ECM without much call for changing other systems, and presented very well.

Edited by Dracol, 29 September 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[DocBach]

If you can use google docs to suggest a change to that so I can find it easier, I can add a caveat that adds the window of sensors detecting ECM.

I'd actually like it if with the suggested changes ECM protected 'Mechs not actually equipped with ECM could only be targeted manually, ie someone had to notice them, put a reticle on them, and hit a button to target them, but did not include it in the proposal as I didn't want to add any brand new mechanics that would require more work for whoever makes the changes. This also goes hand in hand with the expanded rules I went over describing that units that are spotted visually can be attacked by any weapon systems.

That way, ECM still provides stealth ability for the carrier, and can still be used as stealth against an unaware enemy, but is not completely a hard counter against 'Mechs or teams thrown together without specific key counters to unlock its effects.

As for overlapping effects, it wouldn't be changed -- you would still have to either counter the ECM with enough counter ECM or other counters to take it down stacked units completely.

Edited by DocBach, 29 September 2014 - 04:33 PM.

[Anarcho]

Just make ecm burn out after 4 or 5 PPC hits, and make narc work under ecm. Done...

[Dracol]

DocBach, on 29 September 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

If you can use google docs to suggest a change to that so I can find it easier, I can add a caveat that adds the window of sensors detecting ECM.

I'd actually like it if with the suggested changes ECM protected 'Mechs not actually equipped with ECM could only be targeted manually, ie someone had to notice them, put a reticle on them, and hit a button to target them, but did not include it in the proposal as I didn't want to add any brand new mechanics that would require more work for whoever makes the changes. This also goes hand in hand with the expanded rules I went over describing that units that are spotted visually can be attacked by any weapon systems.

That way, ECM still provides stealth ability for the carrier, and can still be used as stealth against an unaware enemy, but is not completely a hard counter against 'Mechs or teams thrown together without specific key counters to unlock its effects.

As for overlapping effects, it wouldn't be changed -- you would still have to either counter the ECM with enough counter ECM or other counters to take it down stacked units completely.

I agree that the target by reticle would be nice.

In regards to stacking, I was curious about the time to lock specifically. Would 2 ECMs provide 100% target lock time if overlapping?

suggestion added to googledoc

[Ted Wayz]

If ECM and LRMs are such a nuisance why do I not see NARC everywhere?

Oh yeah, people like to take away things as it requires less effort on their part. Two questions, when ECM is "fixed" what will b the next thing that is reason you are not doing well? And at what point will the excuses run out and people will start thinking about how they can play better instead of searching the forums for the latest straw man?

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Davers, on 29 September 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The fact that all discussion about it seems to have ceased tells me the council has been picked and NDAs have been signed.

Ever read animal farm, 1945, George Orwell.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
If they wanted your opinion they would have posted a thread for you to 'like'

[DocBach]

Ted Wayz, on 29 September 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

If ECM and LRMs are such a nuisance why do I not see NARC everywhere?

Oh yeah, people like to take away things as it requires less effort on their part. Two questions, when ECM is "fixed" what will b the next thing that is reason you are not doing well? And at what point will the excuses run out and people will start thinking about how they can play better instead of searching the forums for the latest straw man?

I do just fine in the game (in fact I've been ranked on the leaderboards in several events), but from a balance stand point, having a system of hard counters to hard counter hard counters that are randomly assigned to a team via a matchmaker is a poor mechanic in a game.

[Ted Wayz]

You do not need the hard counter to hard counter a hard counter. If you do not have ECM then ECM only has half of it's utility correct? Even then it is only as effective as the area it covers, and only for as long as the mech that carries it stays alive or does not lose it in battle (people are getting very good at clipping Kit Foxes).

ECM also has a drawback for a dead giveaway for position. Paying attention to when your signal goes low gives you a quick indication that the enemy is nearby.

Now look at all the counters to ECM: ECM, NARC, UAV and not using lock on weapons that account for 90% of the weapons in game. Heck, the LRMs can dead fire and SRMs that are not streaks are not affected.

Even if it gives the other team the missile advantage you can always use cover which costs 0 tons to equip.

ECM is only as effective as the other team makes it. Above is the evidence, what are the excuses again?

[Kirkland Langue]

Ted Wayz, on 29 September 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

If ECM and LRMs are such a nuisance why do I not see NARC everywhere?

Oh yeah, people like to take away things as it requires less effort on their part. Two questions, when ECM is "fixed" what will b the next thing that is reason you are not doing well? And at what point will the excuses run out and people will start thinking about how they can play better instead of searching the forums for the latest straw man?

So, your brilliant answer to those saying ECM is OP is to counter it with NARC.
So, your brilliant answer to a 1.5T piece of equipment is for everyone on the enemy team to fit 5T worth of "counter", each.

Remember, in Soloqueue, you can't count on any of your teammates bringing that counter - so you have to bring it yourself.


Yea, your brilliant answer shows just how absurd ECM is.

[Eddrick]

One of the most hated and banned parts in Armored Core 3. It isn't in Battletech. But, maybe we can learn something from it. Since, MWO's current version of ECM doesn't stray to far from it.
http://armoredcore.w...ki/MEST-MX/CROW

Jam enemy radar and lock-on functions

[CocoaJin]

Fut, on 29 September 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Or in other words: Hype, hype, hype, excitement.... NOTHING.
PGI SOP I suppose.

Will keep waiting, and waiting... hopefully something will come from this in the next couple of years.

Some of you guys are such the...

[Deathlike]

Davers, on 29 September 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The fact that all discussion about it seems to have ceased tells me the council has been picked and NDAs have been signed.

If that were only true... (it's not, but for now the waiting game is being played).

[Training Instructor]

Problems with ECM:

Group stealth cloak and missile shield

[The Driver]

Ted Wayz, on 29 September 2014 - 05:06 PM, said:

If ECM and LRMs are such a nuisance why do I not see NARC everywhere?

Oh yeah, people like to take away things as it requires less effort on their part. Two questions, when ECM is "fixed" what will b the next thing that is reason you are not doing well? And at what point will the excuses run out and people will start thinking about how they can play better instead of searching the forums for the latest straw man?

Agreed - imo its more fun to challenge yourself!

[Karenai]

ECM rework is already working. I did not buy the wave II because of the possible ECM rework. Hellbringer would have been the only interesting choice for me. At least they did not announce ECM rework a month after everybody bought the Hellbringer.