133 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Sadist Cain, on 02 October 2014 - 04:03 AM, said:

Any solo player who I've seen here trying to suggest improving features that encourage and enforce teamwork between random unknown players just gets instantly shot down by a load of comments that extend to little beyond "get on our level u scrub".

Who here has been refusing to give solo players better communication and grouping tools? Would you care to point the relevant posts? I may have missed them.

And just as an FYI, I play solo only and have been doing so since the very beginning.

[Hoax415]

Mawai, on 02 October 2014 - 07:54 AM, said:

If Elo is dropped as a constraint in CW (as a poster mentioned above) then the matchmaker should have an easier time of matching large groups to large groups ... and small to small ... so it might work out

At this time not only is elo dropped but it appears the MM's desire to match groups with groups as well at least that certainly wasn't mentioned by Paul, only First In First Out team building and then launching once two 12 man teams are formed. Its an interesting thought though if elo is gone but the MM still tries to put teams made up of fewer and/or larger groups against each other.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Not too thrilled about the idea of matching lots of smaller uncoordinated groups against 12 mans. I'm not sure, but I imagine the other game modes will be available during CW as well, not just invasion. If that is the case I could see 12 man being a disadvantage if the smaller less coordinated groups play their cards right.

My theory is as follows. A group of 12 split into lances could potentially have more impact by tipping the balance of power in three games where a 12 man would ensure victory in one game. In order for this to work small groups that are cobbled together and put against 12 mans must play to stall the game as long as possible.

Invasion sounds like it will be a 30 minute game. Additionally, skirmish can be dragged out to 15 minutes (anyone ready to cheer for ECM light/shutdown mechs?). Conquest can go longer but probably not the full 15. Base camping in assault is a good idea, but against a much more powerful opponent probably offers the least ability to draw out the match.

If you maximize the number of minutes a 12 man has to play to get a victory while your teams are split into smaller forces that can tip the balance in their favor across more maps then you could potentially win the token/victory counter game by losing the correct way.

Edited by Rouken, 02 October 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[Sadist Cain]

Mystere, on 02 October 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

Who here has been refusing to give solo players better communication and grouping tools? Would you care to point the relevant posts? I may have missed them.

And just as an FYI, I play solo only and have been doing so since the very beginning.

My apologies I was a touch misleading there, hope no one in here here feels that was directed at them.

Anyhow not so much in this thread in particular but some of the others have cropped up there's an air of "put up or shut up" from some folks. Not all, just a bit of a bad taste left in the mouth in some cases.

Conversely solo players don't help themselves when they title a topic "12 Man cohesive unit Stomps Middle Eastern Style Democracy Team!!! Plz Nerf!" or summit to that effect...

Looking at the plan feeling the forum vibes and checking my magic crystals, things are certainly on track for lil group greatness. I just wanna try and slip it into as many "Teamwork OP plz nerf" threads as I can that there is hope a coming!

[Kyle Wright]

Look guys call me a group elitist or whatever. As I admitted to cSand when I started it was 4ppc/guass ridge humping stalkers and atlai vs me in a blackjack... I've been there, he'll when I started k/D was .33, I finished at .97 when they did the state reset. Now I'm somewhere around 1.97 or 2, but it took a group of more experience D guys to show me the ropes. Now my views are bias cause I've seen everything from 2 man's telling a 12 man team what to do, a 3 man running to other side of the map refusing to talk via chat leaving 9 to fight 12, I've seen solo queue scatter like leaves in the wind while enemy team death balls. I prefer to have guys that I can talk with that know what they are doing, run effective builds, and know strong points on maps. I get tired in smaller groups asking random to be patient cause they are so insistent on running out to die instead of using that 15 min to enjoy a live game of mech chess. Now some guys are simply studs in solo queue and I'm sure some of you in here fit that description. However when I see guys in solo queue run strict LRMs with no back up weapons I cry because it takes me a few seconds to snipe or use cover and get in close to wreck it Ralph him.

Fact is there is a very noticeable skill gap. Some players don't care or just don't know the most effective way to fight in the game based on recent balance changes. I get its about fun, but what's fun about losing. When I win in a group I average about 250000cbills. In solo queue it varies because it then comes down to how much can you carry 11 other guys.

ALSO HoL are not going anywhere. Them as well as 228th, CK, GK, QQ, HHoD, etc have been recruiting like crazy. Sure HoL has some issues but that limited to a couple people.

Edited by Kyle Wright, 02 October 2014 - 11:08 AM.

[Hoax415]

Sadist Cain, on 02 October 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Anyhow not so much in this thread in particular but some of the others have cropped up there's an air of "put up or shut up" from some folks. Not all, just a bit of a bad taste left in the mouth in some cases.

Conversely solo players don't help themselves when they title a topic "12 Man cohesive unit Stomps Middle Eastern Style Democracy Team!!! Plz Nerf!" or summit to that effect...

Look at the title of this thread. That title is very typical for threads on this topic. That's where that "put up or shut up" attitude comes from. Additionally if you have a problem with facing 12-mans the easiest solution that is available to every single player is to form your own 12-man.

It just is. You can pretend its too much to ask or that only XYZ type of human being can handle the ordeal of playing with others but that's not reality.

The correct way to start a thread where you want to talk about how the game needs better in-game or out of game communication tools is to start a thread about those tools. Not some sensationalist bs about how people who are trying really hard to win will beat people who are in it "just for fun" and that's a problem!

12-mans literally don't need to be mentioned in a Cammo Rose thread or a Faction Chat thread. But they always are because the people who start these threads are really just wishing they could somehow "nerf 12-mans" or the really pathetic ones want to just prevent 12-mans from ever getting drops.

[cSand]

Kyle Wright, on 02 October 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

a live game of mech chess.

I may not agree with you all the time, but THIS is what it's about

So much this. That is probably the best way I've heard it put, and what the game should be.

Edited by cSand, 02 October 2014 - 11:37 AM.

[Mystere]

Hoax415, on 02 October 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Look at the title of this thread. That title is very typical for threads on this topic. That's where that "put up or shut up" attitude comes from. Additionally if you have a problem with facing 12-mans the easiest solution that is available to every single player is to form your own 12-man.

That's easier said than done:

• You start a recruitment drive.
  
• You examine and test applicants.
  
• You feed, house, and train the new recruits.
  
• You execute the low performers.
  
• You start from the top again.

That's a lot of work in what is supposed to be just a video game.

Edited by Mystere, 02 October 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Karamarka]

Agelmar, on 02 October 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

People need to understand how CW is going to work first.

The best 12 man in the game can win EVERY drop in CW and NOT take over a planet due to the outcomes of the drops they are not in.

Sounds about right too me.

Kjudoon, on 02 October 2014 - 05:12 AM, said:

I'd love to see some of these hot shots do so well on my system with its 5-10FPS when the fighting starts and gets too close.

Should PGI start giving damage bonuses for people with low FPS to go with people who cant find groups? I think everyone who plays solo or with less than 30fps should have no heat generation.

Edited by Karamarka, 02 October 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Lykaon]

Chemie, on 30 September 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

There will be 2 types of games:

1. organized 12-man attack or defend and usually go against random pug teams. The outcome will be well known. The organized team can take an organized deck. Clans could field 6 timberwolfs and 6 direwolfs while the pugs take "whatever". ELO or not, the outcome is known.

Also, I suspect attackers will be at the advanced because of the 30 second thing so they will more likely be against pug teams while the defenders will be 50/50 against pugs team as attackers (since even a 2 man can attack and get backfilled).

2. Or the games will be random pug teams vs random pug teams. Outcome is 50/50

In short, ELO will be better matched because of dropdeck but it is just today's 12-man queue with planets.

So attackers will usually win the planets (unless the map design favors defenders heavily).

Are you serious about participating in community warfare?

If yes,JOIN a team.

If you drop the usual pile of excuses as to why you won't/can't join an organized group then you are NOT serious about participation in community warfare.

The usual excuses:

1) "I have no time to find a group because of work/familily/superhero moonlighting etc". (If you have such limits on your time you are not capable of "serious" competition.CW is not for super casual play)

2) "I shouldn't have to join a team to win" (yes you should.players who prepare and plan should be rewarded with higher chances of success)

3) " I don't want to have to listen to other people" (if this is the case your personality is in direct opposition to correct participation in a team game and as such make you incompatable with serious organized play)

4) "I shouldn't have to listen to some 9 year old swearing and being obnoxious" (Join a player organization that does not include snotty nosed kids!)

5) "PGI should fix it so I get to play the way I want and screw anyone who plays differently" (Way to selfish to correctly participate in a team oriented game)

[Nick Makiaveli]

It's CW not Team Death Match. Sometimes local garrison forces had to defend against elite units assaulting their planet. To me this is more in the spirit of the lore.

If you don't like it, you can always play the regular TDM queue or get your own groups together to give the Opfor a run for their money!

[Asmudius Heng]

Almond Brown, on 02 October 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

First off the amount of assumption in your OP is staggering. Also the amount of bad information is near gag reflex generating.

OP? As in the post you quoted? are you confusing me with the starter of this thread? Or my first post in this thread? In any case your use of language is off putting and hardly conductive to a discussion ... oh sorry maybe i should say the way you communicate makes me sick to the stomach and i threw up a little in my mouth? Did that add to the discussion? no neither does describing something as gag reflex generating ...

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The Clans will be held to the Drop-ship limit same as the I.S. 4 Mechs each, 1 of each weight class, so No there will not be any 6 TW and 6 SMN initial drop waves. 4 and 4 maybe but if that wave is lost, ouchers the rest of the way....

Yes ... ok, i know. I never stated they would be taking a drop deck like that. Are you confusing me with someone else???

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As to the Offense vs Defense assumption. Why do you just assume that the faction which owns said Attacked Planet does not have themselves 12 man just waiting, all kitted out, Commed up and raring to go?

I do not assume they will not, it would be good if large groups get matched against large groups and smaller groups get matched against smaller groups that would be best. The conversation is about how smaller groups banding together are at a significant disadvantage to a team on TS who had more prep time.

It is nothing to do with the skill levels or people who train together it is simply about the inherent system advantages a 12 man group has over a mixed group.

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There will be limited Planets to attack starting out, so why not just CHILL and see how it plays out and not just ASSUME what you consider the obvious...

I am not assuming anything except the way the game currently exists means that smaller groups have an uphill battle to communicate effectively when trying to fight against 12 man groups.

Maybe with all your talk of assumptions ... you need to actually read what i posted rather than assume what i am actually communicating ...

Livewyr, on 02 October 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Aside from the commo rose, what else can they do? (This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely interested because based on my experiences in this game and all others: there is not much PGI can do.)

Faction Chat
Pre-game lobby (with 2 minutes until drop, I think)
Commo rose

Anything else?

I think those things are essential tools to start with. Faction chat/LFG chat should be low hanging fruit IMO. I know my unit would be happy to put a call out for players if we have less than 12 and host a TS for instance. Faction chat also adds a sense of community that is really lacking in game.

Commo rose is on the plan i think, if it is even in development i dont know but it needs to be a part of a larger revamp of the map and even the HUD to show orders, spotting, etc to be MUCH more visible (and audible). The entire non-voice communication aspect of MWO is very lacking.

Pre-game lobby would be much better. Like we have now but with more time as you say, but also being able to see where your lances are, what loadout your team has, and the ability for commanders and lance leaders to draw or set points on the map before have. Combine that with VOIP and you can quickly put together a battle plan and get most people on board quickly.

There is no helping some people who simply ignore everything but each peice adds a new layer that makes tactics more visible, communication easier and will help 12 mans, small groups, and even the solo queue.

There is a lot of additional polish and systems that will all link together to create something better.

The danger is that it make the HUD and audio too busy, but i would gladly have that compared to silence form team mates not because they are dumb, but because its just too hard to try and communicate right now outside of your own TS. Even on our own TS i wish i could more easily set waypoints that try to fight and see co-ords etc

[Karamarka]

Nick Makiaveli, on 02 October 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

It's CW not Team Death Match. Sometimes local garrison forces had to defend against elite units assaulting their planet. To me this is more in the spirit of the lore.

You should point them towards the Mechwarrior 4 intro cinematic. That's an epic example of your post.

[Asmudius Heng]

Lykaon, on 02 October 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

1) "I have no time to find a group because of work/familily/superhero moonlighting etc". (If you have such limits on your time you are not capable of "serious" competition.CW is not for super casual play)

You assume that CW should only be for people who can commit to something akin to work level commitment? Way to shut out a lot of the community. You are being divisive by saying there are only super casuals and super hardcore without acknowledging the vast array of different levels and types of players in between.

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2) "I shouldn't have to join a team to win" (yes you should.players who prepare and plan should be rewarded with higher chances of success)

Again the language you are using is misleading. Winning is different to being involved and contributing to CW. Any solo player thinking they can rock up and compete with a 12 man is clueless, but if it boils down to be hardcore or simply do not participate then you will make CW a lonely place IMO

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3) " I don't want to have to listen to other people" (if this is the case your personality is in direct opposition to correct participation in a team game and as such make you incompatable with serious organized play)

Those people should certainly not be in CW for sure, not just for serious play either, being adverse to communicating or at least listening in a team based game means they should be reconsidering playing the game at all. Communication is not everyone not just the hardcore.

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4) "I shouldn't have to listen to some 9 year old swearing and being obnoxious" (Join a player organization that does not include snotty nosed kids!)

Agreed, or with VOIP you can just mute them problem solved - its a non issue.

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5) "PGI should fix it so I get to play the way I want and screw anyone who plays differently" (Way to selfish to correctly participate in a team oriented game)

Everyone want a game to cater them them. The hardcore players are exactly the same. The developers job is to make sure the game can be inclusive to as many people as possible - but of course you cannot please everyone equally.

[Jetfire]

12> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]

Thanks for the math refresher. I forgot how to "is this number smaller than twelve?". Yeah, except for if maybe there will be 12 mans on all sides of the equation.

[Asmudius Heng]

Nick Makiaveli, on 02 October 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

It's CW not Team Death Match. Sometimes local garrison forces had to defend against elite units assaulting their planet. To me this is more in the spirit of the lore.

I agree, however no one likes to be cannon fodder and just lose because this is a game not real military life.

Outclassed defenders should at least be cable to have meaningful losses - be able to try and reduce the enemies resources, hold them up before they can be reinforced by a more elite unit.

No one is expecting people to win a lot against the most hardcore of the hardcore - but there should be some outcome losers can strive to be proud of and enjoy or no one wants to play against those teams.

[zortesh]

isn't the greater coordination of 12mans made up for by the fact the opposing team has the possibility to end up with 6+ direwolves vs a balanced team?

[Squally160]

zortesh, on 02 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

isn't the greater coordination of 12mans made up for by the fact the opposing team has the possibility to end up with 6+ direwolves vs a balanced team?

we all can bring 12 DW.


mmmmmmm. that dakka.

[zortesh]

Squally160, on 02 October 2014 - 04:02 PM, said:

we all can bring 12 DW.


mmmmmmm. that dakka.

wait so 12mans wont be limited to 3/3/3/3 in cw?

[Mystere]

zortesh, on 02 October 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

wait so 12mans wont be limited to 3/3/3/3 in cw?

As far as we know, it's 1/1/1/1 x 12.