65 replies to this topic

[K0M3D14N]

I'm always amused that Commandos are at the bottom of this list despite being some of the most effective Light strikers in the game. They are, and always have been, my most effective chassis.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 02 October 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

-15% energy weapon heat.

Suddenly, Wubshees. Wubshees everywhere.

I can count on one had the WubShees I've seen in the past month; it does make me a little sad.

On the other hand, I have had players ask if I was in the WubShee myself, so word is getting out. I don't expect the pulse laser meta, at any rate.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 02 October 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

I can count on one had the WubShees I've seen in the past month; it does make me a little sad.

On the other hand, I have had players ask if I was in the WubShee myself, so word is getting out. I don't expect the pulse laser meta, at any rate.

#WubsheeMeta2014
#PulseLaserNerfs
#Sadness

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 02 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

#WubsheeMeta2014
#PulseLaserNerfs
#Sadness

Much sadness.

But, hey, Victor Ballerinas will be good too. Very surprised the BJ1X is tier 4, one of my favourites. That should net more buffs than the WubShee!

[Adiuvo]

Sandslice, on 02 October 2014 - 07:08 AM, said:

That can be disputed. Ember and Jenner-F are ranked two tiers above all other Firestarters, and above Peckraven as well. From a pure systemic analysis standpoint, that makes no sense whatsoever.

HGN-733c is somehow singled out as being stronger than all other Highlanders by the subset? The one that happens to have the Trial?

CTF-3D over Firebrand, and two tiers over Ilya?

No. There may be subset input affecting it at points, but the bulk of it follows usage.

The rest of the Firestarters have energy hardpoints that are too low to be useful, The F has high energy hardpoints, while the Ember has the 4 MGs.

The 733C is missing a lower arm actuator, and that free crit slots allows for various extra builds and extra heatsinks.

The 3D has JJs and 2 high mounted energy hardpoints. It's a much better peeker than the Firebrand, and the Ilya has to be in open terrain to get all of its guns on target.

Not trying to be mean... but posts like these are why the creation of a tier list has to be done at a competitive, or at least serious, level. The general populace doesn't understand what makes a mech 'good' nearly as well.

[Doctor Proctor]

You can't count personal anecdotes as evidence of a mech's effectiveness. Sure, maybe you're great in X mech, but you might be even better in Y mech if you didn't like X so much. For example, I love me some Hunchbacks. I have every Hunchback variant, and even bought the Grid Iron so that I could get a 30% CBill bump while running a clone of my favorite 4G loadout. I'm also pretty good in them, and got up to #60 in the last tournament mainly on the back of my Hunchies (there were a couple of games with my CN9-A too where I cleaned up shop using those SRMs).

Now, does the fact that I did so well in the tournament running Hunchbacks mean that they're Tier 1/Tier 2? Heck no! Do you know how many other Hunchbacks I tore apart like nothing during that tournament? How many RT's I ripped off in a barrage of missile/lases/AC fire? I do well in them because they're my favorite mech and I know their weaknesses and how to compensate for them, most players don't. Even despite that, I will almost always lose in a one on one fight with a decent Shadow Hawk pilot, simply due to their JJ's and hitboxes.

I know the mech has problems, but I do well in it by compensating for those problems and avoiding engagements like that where I know I will lose, not because the chassis is good. If I didn't hate the claustrophobic cockpit of the Shadow Hawk so much I would probably spend a hundred hours or so learning the ins and outs of them, as I did with the Hunchback, and be that much better because I was in a superior chassis. This is the problem with the balance currently. It's not that I can't do good in a Tier 5 chassis, because I can, it's that I would do better in a Tier 2 like the Shadow Hawk purely because it's a better mech. Adding these quirks will help out because, assuming things go well, I will have buffs of some kind that will help smooth out the Hunchbacks weaknesses while increasing it's strengths, thus allowing me to do better without having to switch to the FOTM chassis that flat out beats mine when going against someone of the same skill level.

[FrDrake]

Adiuvo, on 02 October 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

The rest of the Firestarters have energy hardpoints that are too low to be useful, The F has high energy hardpoints, while the Ember has the 4 MGs.

The 733C is missing a lower arm actuator, and that free crit slots allows for various extra builds and extra heatsinks.

The 3D has JJs and 2 high mounted energy hardpoints. It's a much better peeker than the Firebrand, and the Ilya has to be in open terrain to get all of its guns on target.

Not trying to be mean... but posts like these are why the creation of a tier list has to be done at a competitive, or at least serious, level. The general populace doesn't understand what makes a mech 'good' nearly as well.

The 3D ability to jump puts it a tier above even discounting the high energy hardpoints. I would much rather get a tier list made by "competitive" players than random dudes from the forums.

*Edit* I think the 733C comes from the AC/20 2xPPC meta when that was the best loadout, I think it's the only highlander that can accommodate that loadout.

Edited by FrDrake, 02 October 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Xarian]

Adiuvo, on 02 October 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

The rest of the Firestarters have energy hardpoints that are too low to be useful, The F has high energy hardpoints, while the Ember has the 4 MGs.

The 733C is missing a lower arm actuator, and that free crit slots allows for various extra builds and extra heatsinks.

The 3D has JJs and 2 high mounted energy hardpoints. It's a much better peeker than the Firebrand, and the Ilya has to be in open terrain to get all of its guns on target.

Not trying to be mean... but posts like these are why the creation of a tier list has to be done at a competitive, or at least serious, level. The general populace doesn't understand what makes a mech 'good' nearly as well.

You're right about the mechs, but your "not trying to be mean" statement was, well, very mean.

Other complaints about mech sizes are legitimate, and part of the reason why some entire chassis get relegated to worse tiers. Scaling is one of the easier things for PGI to fix, too.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I started playing the awesome after those massive quirks. It seemed fairly competitive as a zombie build.

Did Russ say they were killing those quirks? That would explain the drop to tier 4.

Edited by 911 Inside Job, 02 October 2014 - 10:34 AM.

[Dracol]

Xarian, on 02 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Other complaints about mech sizes are legitimate, and part of the reason why some entire chassis get relegated to worse tiers. Scaling is one of the easier things for PGI to fix, too.

If I recall correctly, rescaling a mech is not as easy as it seems. First, the base model needs adjustment, which includes resizing the little details that give the mech the sense of scale. Sure, the mech itself could just be reduced by say 10%, but the hand holds, ammo racks, hatches all then have to be rescaled back up to appropriate sizes.

After the model is rescaled, then it needs to be rerigged and then animated. Meanwhile, all the texture maps need a going over to account for the change in size of all the different components.

A lot of work to change the height or width of a mech.

Edited by Dracol, 02 October 2014 - 10:48 AM.

[InspectorG]

FupDup, on 02 October 2014 - 08:24 AM, said:

-15% energy weapon heat.

Suddenly, Wubshees. Wubshees everywhere.

I got a fever...and the only cure...is more wubwub.

[1453 R]

What amuses me is the number of people all going "D: WUT DU U MEEN MY FAVE IZ T4/5?!" and then making all kinds of arguments as to why it's totez legit a Tier 1.

Do these guys not realize that the lower your favorite's tier is, the better off you are? o_O

[Deathlike]

Viktor Drake, on 02 October 2014 - 07:31 AM, said:

You just made my point. Your automatic response was the the Quickdraw is worhless however, my stats with they have said otherwise for a long time. Also every time I see a Quickdraw in a match, which admittingly is rare anymore, they are usually one of the top performers

While I don't think the Quickdraw is worthless, but I've already replied to you on a different thread regarding your example... there are drawbacks that you as a pilot can manage, but that's doesn't make it good by any stretch. Consider other mechs that the Quickdraw-5K (my favorite variant) is most similar to... the Jester... and Sparky (Griffin-1E). While I certainly believe the 5K is better than the Jester (the Catapult chassis is already squishy), it's totally inferior to the Sparky... which is using an excellent chassis (Griffin) and inheriting many good things from that.

Quickdraw is a fun mech, but downplaying its disadvantages is IGNORING why it is considered bad.

Quote

Yeah honestly I am not sure why they are using the competitive community for a measuring stick when lets face it, 90% of the community isn't at their level. The competitive game is a completely different game with completely different requirements and play styles and really has zero in common with the game the majority of us play.

While occasionally the competitive community is doing stuff that no average player is doing, they do notice WHY a certain mech, build, and variant comes together in a certain way, and knows how to expose said weakness. Bad mechs and their variants have A LOT more weaknesses to expose, even you if you are master of them. While you won't notice it entirely in regular play, trying to do that in more competitive scenarios should give you pause into why they are not fielded.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm always amused that Commandos are at the bottom of this list despite being some of the most effective Light strikers in the game. They are, and always have been, my most effective chassis.

Commandos used to be effective. But then they nerfed missile damage. Thats what killed the Commandos.

IS SRM and SSRM damage needs to be increased back to 2.5 per missile.

The IS SRMs weigh twice as much as the clan versions so giving them 25% more damage is the least PGI could do. Plus the IS SSRM2 is outright worse than a medium laser at 2.0 damage, at 2.5 damage it would be where it needs to be, considering all its downsides.

Thats really the main buff the Commando needs. It doesnt need a bunch of other weird quirks (aside from maybe an internal structure bonus)

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[Deathlike]

Commandos are not that good, but they control the Lolcust population well.

At least their speed is far more useful for getting in and out into messes and steal a kill or two and get out. They still suffer the same problems Embers have... as shooting their arms off should be everyone's prerogative to disable them.

[TOGSolid]

Xarian, on 02 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

You're right about the mechs, but your "not trying to be mean" statement was, well, very mean.

It's really not, it's straight up factual. Just reading half these posts shows exactly why trying to get any meaningful balance discussion going in this forum is a waste of time because so many people are completely ignorant as to what makes something good or not. MWO has long had a weird problem where a majority of pugs just do not understand what the heck is going on in this game and how the different systems affect each other.

And for the record: I'm not a competitive player.

Edited by TOGSolid, 02 October 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Commandos are not that good

Commandos were tier 1 before the missile nerf

Spoiler

[TOGSolid]

Khobai, on 02 October 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

Commandos were tier 1 before the missile nerf

Spoiler

ECM Streakmando build?

[Khobai]

Quote

ECM Streakmando build?

Yeah. That was a while ago, before clan mechs were added. But back then streaks did 2.5 damage still.

[Deathlike]

TOGSolid, on 02 October 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

ECM Streakmando build?

They used to hunt your CT.

The damage reduction is not a justification for the decline of the ECM commando... people forget how Streaks functioned way back when.