439 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 05 October 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Lower than ever? I thought that point was during the days of the 4 PPC Stalker/3PPC + Gauss Highlander?

I'm talking about the recent now, not the meta from 2 years ago.

[Deathlike]

What the heck... this thread disappeared and reappeared and whatever... I've finally caught up. So let me address this one point that's sticking in my craw at the moment.

Ultimatum X, on 03 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

2) Why does instant convergence completely break the armor system here? This is a bold claim. I understand it's powerful, but it's never felt "broken" to me.

It does... and here's why.

Let's go back the Highlander-732 where it was top of the food chain for meta (and to a lesser extent, the DS, since it could actually field that loadout).

3 PPCs in the RT could fire into something like a Firestarter-K's arms (they are pretty large for a small mech), and remove the external armor off on it in one shot, probably removing a few of the lasers in it due the randomness that is the crit system in this game. This is a symptom of the problem. While Ghost Heat makes the type of shot prohibitive heat-wise, it does not stop the dual Gauss Jager or Gausscat (let alone the common meta Dire Whale builds that have dual Gauss) and accomplishing effectively the same result.

While the removing the arms of the Firestarter is not fatal, doing that for its CT three times IS fatal. It obviously lowers TTK.

If any sort of COF/spread that was added to the fire, seeing the loadout hit 2 or more multiple sections (receiving damage in less concentrated ares) would be far less fatal to the Firestarter, and subsequently.. increasing TTK.

That's the reality people are not actually seeing.

Edited by Deathlike, 05 October 2014 - 05:21 PM.

[Voyager I]

The reality you need to keep in mind is that MechWarrior games fundamentally are and always have been first person shooters with a very heavy emphasis on precise shot placement and adding any kind of "my shots don't go where I'm aiming" mechanic to that will utterly ruin the game for a significant portion of its core fanbase.

Being able to dump huge gobs of damage into one location is a problem, but the solution needs to be something other than cones of fire (or Ghost Heat).

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

While the removing the arms of the Firestarter is not fatal, doing that for its CT three times IS fatal. It obviously lowers TTK.

When was the last time you, or really anyone, managed to shoot a Fire Starter 3x in a row in the CT with Dual Gauss?



I'm not in this game for a pillow fight and I think 30 to 40 pinpoint alphas are fine.

I think if you keep moving, play smart and spread damage your TTD is generally fine.

A few mechs need help with their geometry.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 October 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[CompproB237]

Voyager I, on 05 October 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

The reality you need to keep in mind is that MechWarrior games fundamentally are and always have been first person shooters with a very heavy emphasis on precise shot placement and adding any kind of "my shots don't go where I'm aiming" mechanic to that will utterly ruin the game for a significant portion of its core fanbase.

Being able to dump huge gobs of damage into one location is a problem, but the solution needs to be something other than cones of fire (or Ghost Heat).

It sounds like you are suggesting that we may need to stray from the canon values for a lot of systems then. That's how it worked in MW2 at least. Difficulties scaled enemy weapon damage and player armor values. We'd need to find a 'happy medium' where you're rewarded for skilled play but not to the extent you are right now.

[KraftySOT]

But there ISNT another way to accomplish that. No matter what you do unless you make it impossible to do 50 point alpha strikes, will you ever stop them.

You cant have it both ways. If you make grouping certain weapons give more heat, then you move to other weapons. My AC/20, 2 large pulse, 2 medium pulse, is just as good at 400m as a hoard of ppcs is at long range. If you have less than 100 total armor and internals...youre dead in 4.5 seconds. The recycle time for the weapons. Youre a direwolf? Well thats another two and a half seconds. Thanks for the huge hit box and slow movement so hitreg works. If you got 30 armor and 25 internals, I just killed you instantly if youre not lucky enough to have some packet loss.

Its not just the lulz of a hexastalker.

My totally legit 53 point alpha, is just as much of a problem. I get 4 of those with some coolant flush. And the AC20 fires heat free...so basically in 10 seconds, I can wreck a lance of mediums. Or a dire wolf.

Even with armor values doubled, im dropping mechs at the same speed I dropped them in every other mechwarrior game. Regardless of ghost heat.

And far faster than anyone wants.

No one wants their direwolf to see a Banshee, and be dead 6 seconds later. It sucks for them. It sucks for me when it happens to me, so I know when I do it to someone else it sucks for them.

[Joe Mallad]

Ultimatum X, on 05 October 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

When was the last time you, or really anyone, managed to shoot a Fire Starter 3x in a row in the CT with Dual Gauss?



I'm not in this game for a pillow fight and I think 30 to 40 pinpoint alphas are fine.

agreed. I don't have a problem with anyone being able to alpha for 30 to 40 pinpoint damage. But if they truly want to stop the boating of 5,6 and 7 PPCs, than its easy IMO... Get rid of some of these mech's extra laser hard points or put a hard lock on all mechs. What I mean by hard lock is...even if a mech has 5, 6 and more laser hard points, just hard lock the number of PPCs to a max of 4. So if a large mech has 6 laser hard points, it can still only mount 4 PPCs and that's it. The reason I say a max of 4 PPCs is because as far as I know, in classic battletech and of other MW games, the max I have ever seen any variant of mech mount PPCs is 4.

[KraftySOT]

And theres tons of designs that dont fit the ghost heat criteria that still have huge 60+ alphas.

I like running at the speed of a medium, otherwise id throw a 2xPPC with the large pulse and have a 60 point alpha. Still no ghost heat. How is that any different, im still killing Direwolves and Atlases in just a few seconds. However you get there, it does matter, if you lock off some builds, other builds spring up. Without actually fixing all the weapons hitting the same point, even on a non moving target...the same thing occurs.

You see more pulse lasers for the same reason I switched. No one can twist that fast to avoid being tagged in the same location. Lasers burn to long to compete with good players in good builds. I have to kill them faster than they kill me, or out position them (wait till they alpha a friendly then hop out and alpha them)

Its not that different than the way I rock the M60 in battlefield 4. Its the most accurate and highest damage weapon with practically no reload. Wait for a friendly to be engaged and take down the enemy before he can react.

In a battletech game, unless youre in the lightest mechs, there should always be a moment to reassess your situation and try and do something about it. Nothing dies in a single turn the vast majority of the time. So 1 on 1, 100 ton mechs need to last longer than 10 seconds under sustained fire, especially assaults.

I guess, in theory, since recycle times arent 10 seconds, lower the damage of all weapons to match their ingame recycle times so they average out the correct damage over that time. So your alphas are all reduced in over all damage.

I dont have a problem with pin point damage if it takes multiple shots to core CTs on assaults...but as it is, its 3 shots at the most...and thats in a bad joke build.

If it took 3 shots in 10 seconds to do your 60 points of damage...thats cool too. If the guy stood around for 10 seconds to let you hit the same location 3 times in a row, he'll probably stand around for 30. Not a huge deal.

But those of us who do actually think a tad and try and play well (even if we cant) dont get penalized because theyre better than the average bear and get slammed into an ELO bracket thats nothing but meta builds lol. We can survive two alphas.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 05 October 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

When was the last time you, or really anyone, managed to shoot a Fire Starter 3x in a row in the CT with Dual Gauss?

Not often... unless the Firestarter-pilot is a newbie, and stands still long enough to get immediately crushed by a meta-Daishi, usually to a side torso or insta-leg gib (with a followup finishing blow).

Quote

I'm not in this game for a pillow fight and I think 30 to 40 pinpoint alphas are fine.

I think if you keep moving, play smart and spread damage your TTD is generally fine.

A few mechs need help with their geometry.

When a Light mech is crit in any section of the mech due to "magical convergence", 30 pts is arguably too much. Any time the opponent has enough time to get your paperdoll readout AND uses their brain, that light mech's TTK is oftentimes very short.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

When a Light mech is crit in any section of the mech due to "magical convergence", 30 pts is arguably too much. Any time the opponent has enough time to get your paperdoll readout AND uses their brain, that light mech's TTK is oftentimes very short.

it should be noted that PPC/gauss hits like this not only punch through the light mechs armour but can also cause 1-3 crits, each destroying internal components and causing yet more structural damage.

This is only of the major reasons lights and mediums see little use: 30+ point perfectly converged strikes tend to absolutely wreck them, and as there is effectively no downside to these loadouts they are extremely plentiful (to practically all you see at higher Elo's)

Even if you're not CTing a firestarter twice in a row, when every hit is doing ruinous damage and players are moderately skilled (average experienced players tend to be in the 60-70% overall accuracy, so they're hitting more often than not) it doesn't matter where they hit.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 05:29 PM, said:

When a Light mech is crit in any section of the mech due to "magical convergence", 30 pts is arguably too much. Any time the opponent has enough time to get your paperdoll readout AND uses their brain, that light mech's TTK is oftentimes very short.

Hitting a good light mech with a 30 pinpoint shot is a skill shot, and as we can see from the "light mechs are OP" threads, I'll wager more pilots can not make that shot consistently than can.


I watch a lot of light mechs survive to the end of matches, they have speed, and size on their side.

Yes it's dangerous for them, but I don't think the way we find a better game environment for light mechs is by watering weapon systems down.

In essence, we can't re-balance all weapon systems around Light Mechs.


I've mastered both the Kit Fox and the Adder.

They are slow, and larger than most IS mechs and they are easy to leg.

I've been hammered senseless when I made a wrong move, and I've had matches where I've scored 500+ damage or 5 kills. I'm pretty far from being a good light pilot.


I still think 30-40 pinpoint is fine, even when I'm playing those mechs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 October 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[KraftySOT]

So youre ok with a Cataphract being cored instantly? Because that build still exists in spades, mostly unaffected by ghost heat.

A 70 damage alpha is easy peasy.

Edited by KraftySOT, 05 October 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And frankly the proof is in the pudding.

A light and medium queue below 10%

[KraftySOT]

And sadly, after 20 years...a lights only defense...is lag.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 05 October 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

Hitting a good light mech with a 30 pinpoint shot is a skill shot, and as we can see from the "light mechs are OP" threads, I'll wager more pilots can not make that shot consistently than can.


I watch a lot of light mechs survive to the end of matches, they have speed, and size on their side.

Yes it's dangerous for them, but I don't think the way we find a better game environment for light mechs is by watering weapon systems down.

In essence, we can't re-balance all weapon systems around Light Mechs.


I've mastered both the Kit Fox and the Adder.

They are slow, and larger than most IS mechs and they are easy to leg.

I've been hammered senseless when I made a wrong move, and I've had matches where I've scored 500+ damage or 5 kills. I'm pretty far from being a good light pilot.


I still think 30-40 pinpoint is fine, even when I'm playing those mechs.

The skill shot is "too much" when it is centralized so easily. If the same Gausscat/Gauss Jager/meta-Daishi had its convergence removed, that shot would hit 2 sections (say CT+a side torso), it would still lower its TTK and still take 30 pts of damage, but not wholly removing the Light mech from near death.

It's a very subtle difference, yet still significant when it comes to improving TTK as a whole.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

KraftySOT, on 05 October 2014 - 05:45 PM, said:

So youre ok with a Cataphract being cored instantly? Because that build still exists in spades, mostly unaffected by ghost heat.

A 70 damage alpha is easy peasy.

How? Im henuinely curious how you get a 70 point sniper alpha. 4 gauss + 1 IS PPC? 5 CERPPC?

The highest alpha Ive got on one of my mechs is 105 but thats LRMs so it gets spread out

[Punkass]

There's no risk involved in huge alphas. A 2 PPC + 2 AC5 Dragon Slayer (30 pts, pinpoint, long range) generates 37% heat when it alphas, and sinks off 16% by the time the PPCs are off cooldown. That may seem like a bit, but they're able to fire 4 times and put 120 points of damage on a single point in 16 seconds before they're forced to manage their heat. You can core a medium, or blow the side torso off of a heavy or the front armor off an assault. Only way to survive is to go big by piloting an assault (as some people may have noticed by looking at the queue).

This is why I favor cutting the heat cap. It forces the Dragon Slayer pilot to make a choice between firing off an alpha that accounts for a significant portion of their heat reserve, or firing just the ACs or PPCs. It forces the pilot to make rational choices in-game because now heat capacity (and maybe the ability to sink it away quickly) is a scarce resource. Either way, I think the ability to make a 'skill shot' is still there, but now skill can now include on-the-fly heat management as well as twitch skills.

[Hades Trooper]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 05 October 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

How? Im henuinely curious how you get a 70 point sniper alpha. 4 gauss + 1 IS PPC? 5 CERPPC?

The highest alpha Ive got on one of my mechs is 105 but thats LRMs so it gets spread out

9 ppc direwhale, thats 90 pinpoint 45 splash, easy.

also you show your lack of understanding, as anyone should know u can only charge max 2 guass rifles at once,

and 5 CERPPC, do you even understand how weapons work or just a serial post pest who thinks his post counts as something?

5 er ppcs clans, is 50 pinpoint 25 spalsh, so both your examples or so wrong your definately a serial post pest with no obvious idea of the game mechanics but just a need to spew forth your dribble

Edited by Hades Trooper, 05 October 2014 - 10:19 PM.

[Roland]

Stop dancing around the problem and address if head on.

The problem is that when you fire your guns, they all go exactly the same place.

That is the issue. Deal with that issue. Stop creating other lame ass solutions because dealing with the real problem is "too hard".

[Ghogiel]

The 6PPC STK must stop! It's ruining the game