17 replies to this topic

[kapusta11]

Personally I'm against bandaid fixes, but lets assume I've got bitten by Paul or Russ.

Anyways, here's the proposed mechanic:

• Grouped weapons that deal More than X* damage either:
  
  • don't fire at all
    
  • fire with penalty, and the penalty is internal structure damage for 50-100% of the exceeding damage
• Add global 0.3-0.5 sec cooldown to prevent people from using macros.

* - X can take any value, it could be 20 or 30, depends on what goal you're trying to achieve.


What do you think?

Edited by kapusta11, 03 October 2014 - 10:36 AM.

[MadPanda]

"Dont fire at all"

Terrible idea as a panic alpha strike is the core of mechwarrior.

"Fire with penalty"

That's what they already do, and heat penalty is a lot better choice than your "blow up your own mech" solution.

[Fut]

kapusta11, on 03 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Personally I'm against bandaid fixes, but lets assume I've got bitten by Paul or Russ.

Well that was funny... Nicely done.

I'm of the mind that the game doesn't need any more arbitrary rules crammed into place.
The game should allow people to fire as many weapons as they want to at any given time - but the regular heat penalties should keep things in check for the most part... Of course, this would require a rework of the current heat system,

Edited by Fut, 03 October 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[kapusta11]

MadPanda, on 03 October 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

"Dont fire at all"

Terrible idea as a panic alpha strike is the core of mechwarrior.

"Fire with penalty"

That's what they already do, and heat penalty is a lot better choice than your "blow up your own mech" solution.

Heat penalty is recoverable and does not affect heat neutral mechs in any way so... yeah.

[Livewyr]

Really?

Erm no. They have already done a number on PPFLD strikes.. and that is fine since PPFLD can end your mech at 88% or more...

Total damage alphas? No.. that is the most satisfying (minute) experience of big stompy robots..especially in brawling.

[kapusta11]

Yet at the same time you defend Ghost Heat and broken Heat Scale, Oke.

Proposed mechanic would allow to reconsider some major nerfs actually, but whatever.

Edited by kapusta11, 03 October 2014 - 03:15 PM.

[Sovery_Simple]

Uhm, no. This just excessively harms weapons that naturally spread their damage, and by default do more damage per shot than a PPFLD setup. Example: SRM6 x 3 is penalized for anything over 30, but 2 ac10's and a ppc fit fine, yet cause many more issues in the game proper.

Edit: and god help the stock nova.

Edited by Whoops, 03 October 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Scratx]

kapusta11, on 03 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Personally I'm against bandaid fixes, but lets assume I've got bitten by Paul or Russ.

Anyways, here's the proposed mechanic:

• Grouped weapons that deal More than X* damage either:
  
  • don't fire at all
    
  • fire with penalty, and the penalty is internal structure damage for 50-100% of the exceeding damage
• Add global 0.3-0.5 sec cooldown to prevent people from using macros.

* - X can take any value, it could be 20 or 30, depends on what goal you're trying to achieve.



What do you think?

Horrible idea. And if you're talking about global cooldowns on macros, you obviously have no real understanding of what they are or how they work and thus I'm afraid I have no option but to consider your grasp of the game mechanics to be suspect at best.

If we are to prevent alphas instead of penalizing, it is plain better to go with one of the many alternatives that have been presented. For example, use a power budget and make firing every gun cost some of that. Bam, natural choke point on high damage alphas that anyone can understand.

[kapusta11]

Whoops, on 03 October 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Uhm, no. This just excessively harms weapons that naturally spread their damage, and by default do more damage per shot than a PPFLD setup. Example: SRM6 x 3 is penalized for anything over 30, but 2 ac10's and a ppc fit fine, yet cause many more issues in the game proper.

Edit: and god help the stock nova.

Oh yeh, forgot to mention, for the purpose of cap calculation you can treat weapons that spread damage as 70-75% only, so if 30 is pinpoint cap, 40 would be the cap for the lasers, SRMs etc.

BTW I wrote "X" instead of specific number on purpose, you can either split current alphas in two (20 cap) or fix the current ones at some sensible level (30-40) and prevent some builds from getting out of hand.

I just don't get it why people are so opposed to idea, unlike Ghost Heat:

• it affects all weapons and not only energy ones;
  
• it doesn't make pure energy mechs even more worthless than they would be with broken MWO heatscale alone;
  
• it virtually affects NOTHING but alpha damage.

Furthermore there would be no need to keep:

• Gauss charge
  
• PPC projectile nerf
  
• clan laser heat and burn duration nerfs
  
• [possible] JJ nerfs
  
• and many others

Scratx, on 03 October 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Horrible idea. And if you're talking about global cooldowns on macros, you obviously have no real understanding of what they are or how they work and thus I'm afraid I have no option but to consider your grasp of the game mechanics to be suspect at best.

If we are to prevent alphas instead of penalizing, it is plain better to go with one of the many alternatives that have been presented. For example, use a power budget and make firing every gun cost some of that. Bam, natural choke point on high damage alphas that anyone can understand.

Global cooldown is there to avoid shooting several group with minimal delay in between. Could you enlighten me how would one bypass that?

Edited by kapusta11, 04 October 2014 - 04:39 AM.

[El Bandito]

Forced chain fire is the simplest and decent solution to large PPFLD alpha. PGI can decide on the damage amount considered as large alpha.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 October 2014 - 04:45 AM.

[kapusta11]

El Bandito, on 04 October 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Forced chain fire is the simplest and decent solution to large PPFLD alpha. PGI can decide on the damage amount considered as large alpha.

Except it has a one major flaw - 2-3 hard hitting weapons will always be better tham 4-8 smaller ones. Forced chain fire is a buttom up design, top down would be taking current alphas and say split them in two separate shots, again I'm not suggesting this particular change, but it is possible to implement it without affecting anything else.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 October 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

kapusta11, on 03 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Personally I'm against bandaid fixes, but lets assume I've got bitten by Paul or Russ.

Anyways, here's the proposed mechanic:

• Grouped weapons that deal More than X* damage either:
  
  • don't fire at all
    
  • fire with penalty, and the penalty is internal structure damage for 50-100% of the exceeding damage
• Add global 0.3-0.5 sec cooldown to prevent people from using macros.

* - X can take any value, it could be 20 or 30, depends on what goal you're trying to achieve.



What do you think?

is what I think!

[HashtagComStarWasRight]

How about we just do this:

- Remove Ghost Heat entirely
- Rework weapons so that pinpoint damage is harder to get/can be countered by the target (Changes like making IS PPCs do splash like CERPPCs, making IS ACs burst-fire, etc etc)

Now you don't need any sort of convoluted 'weapon cap' or mechanic to keep you from firing weapons because the core issue (pinpoint damage) has been addressed.

[Eddrick]

El Bandito, on 04 October 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Forced chain fire is the simplest and decent solution to large PPFLD alpha. PGI can decide on the damage amount considered as large alpha.

Encourage chain fire. Don't force it. One way is if multiple weapons fired at once spreads/scattereds damage, while chain fire doesn't.

Can try the Mechwarrior Living Legends aproach. They don't have any pinpoint damage. To duplicate that. PGI just has to give IS weapons the same treatment as Clan weapons. Burst fire ACs and splash damage PPCs. Just have to expand on it after that.

[Mystere]

Whoops, on 03 October 2014 - 04:50 PM, said:

Edit: and god help the stock nova.

Do you think butthurt people actually care when they QQ?

kapusta11, on 03 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

• Add global 0.3-0.5 sec cooldown to prevent people from using macros.

Is this what people want MWO reduced to? Really?

kapusta11, on 04 October 2014 - 04:17 AM, said:

Global cooldown is there to avoid shooting several group with minimal delay in between. Could you enlighten me how would one bypass that?

El Bandito, on 04 October 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Forced chain fire is the simplest and decent solution to large PPFLD alpha. PGI can decide on the damage amount considered as large alpha.

I'd rather just have zero convergence than any of this. Aim each and every weapon. Now that is skill.

Edited by Mystere, 04 October 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[kapusta11]

You know, you could at least post some ARGUMENTS about why it's bad, or, which is more important, why it's worse than say Ghost heat or anything else. It's basically one variable and one IF statement. About global cooldown, hell, you won't even notice it because it's less than any other weapon's cooldown we have right now. If you want some narrative treat is as "time it takes to reconverge weapons after making shots", whatever, I'm not actually into that kind of bs.

I expected posts without any argumentation but you outdid yourselves posting images of your wives and tired Xavier.

Edited by kapusta11, 04 October 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, I've considered something like that from reading other ideas around here. But this type of idea is probably best saved for dealing with Gauss grouped with other weapons depending on how damage dealing is going to be managed.

So what I'd see is get in Heat Effects with the original Heat Scale implemented (0 to 30). Then have Heat Sinks (Single or Double) only increase Capacity by same value of 0.1 instead of the current 1.4. That way the important aspect is dissipation (I'd also look to see if true external DHS can return with the Capacity adjustment)

This would reduce long range high alphas and assist short range weapons, and have players need to do more to manage heat than how we currently have.

So the way the scale could be is like this:

Spoiler

The % chances can be tweaked for damage to Internals and Ammo Explosion, but heat should have a bigger impact.

So if Heat Effects are too much that's fine, but we still need Capacity to be reduced.

So a mech like the Stock AWS-8Q has 28 SHS so its total capacity would be 32.8. The Warhawk Prime and AWS-9M would be at 32 Heat Capacity.

Spoiler

What this does is place more importance in dissipation and lower bigger alphas through heat. Since if a mech does shut down from going above 30, the heat must reduce below 30 for the mech's engine to be turned a back on.

Here's another look at Dissipation and PPCs/ERPPCs.

Spoiler

And here's a few tables showing heat spikes in relation to this idea:

Spoiler

Edited by Praetor Knight, 04 October 2014 - 12:22 PM.

[HashtagComStarWasRight]

kapusta11, on 04 October 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

You know, you could at least post some ARGUMENTS about why it's bad

You probably should have read up on any of the many, multiple threads on this that have come up on this forum. All the arguments have been brought up dozens of times.