47 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Chronojam, on 03 October 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

Funny you should describe it as the "devil we know," when the specific details of Ghost Heat are only available via a third-party website that has datamined the game's files.

Do you really know about how Ghost Heat makes launching 50 missiles cooler than launching 40 missiles, or how it makes "boating" 8 medium pulse lasers cooler than "boating" 8 medium lasers?

Re-introducing rearm/refit is an interesting idea that's more or less tangentially related to Ghost Heat itself. There's no reason why I should take twice as much heat to launch 60 missiles as 40, or where launching 50 should be substantially cooler than either of those, regardless of whether or not I pay for the reloads.

And there we have the crux of the issue.

Introducing rearm, or not, has no impact on any of the things Ghost Heat was ostensibly introduced to control. It's kind of like having a guy come in to the doctor because he has a nasty head cold, and the doctor then proceeding to splint and bandage his leg.

The one has nothing to do with the other. Rearm would exert no control whatsoever over any munitions-based alpha builds save to excise ballistics from the general populace of MWO completely, and Roadbeer's specifically stating that Ghost Heat should be left in place for energy weapons.

The entire proposal makes no sense insofar as its ability to solve the problem it sets itself to, and it's liable to open up a pile of additional problems that we have gotten rid of in the meantime when R&R went away the first time.

[Chronojam]

Not to speak for him, but I think RoadBeer is just trying to make the easiest case possible to get at least part of Ghost Heat removed as a first-step, foot-in-the-door approach to completely yanking it out by pointing out how crazy Ghost Heat has been for ballistic/missile weapons.

Next, I think he just wants to see re-arm reintroduced for unrelated reasons, as part of a general review of how ballistics/missiles work. It's not necessarily directly intertwined with Ghost Heat, or intended to be a substitute.

[Noth]

Chronojam, on 03 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Not to speak for him, but I think RoadBeer is just trying to make the easiest case possible to get at least part of Ghost Heat removed as a first-step, foot-in-the-door approach to completely yanking it out by pointing out how crazy Ghost Heat has been for ballistic/missile weapons.

Next, I think he just wants to see re-arm reintroduced for unrelated reasons, as part of a general review of how ballistics/missiles work. It's not necessarily directly intertwined with Ghost Heat, or intended to be a substitute.

There are better ways to go about getting a foot in the door for removing ghost heat.

Also his idea for repair and rearm simply won't work. This isn't WoT where the mechs are broken up into tiers and thus you make easy money early and have to work for it later and with every single tank having one config that they end up with. This game has no tiers for mechs that you must progress through and now mech is stuck with only one loadout. Further since he used WoT, the fact that people with crap loads of money in that game will spend gold ammo (bought with credits) without giving a second thought to it. That basically flies in the face of the idea of R&R limiting the use of something for everyone. Basically R&R simply doesn't work for this game and these reasons have been repeatedly said every single time it is brought up.

[Roadbeer]

Chronojam, on 03 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

Not to speak for him, but I think RoadBeer is just trying to make the easiest case possible to get at least part of Ghost Heat removed as a first-step, foot-in-the-door approach to completely yanking it out by pointing out how crazy Ghost Heat has been for ballistic/missile weapons.

Next, I think he just wants to see re-arm reintroduced for unrelated reasons, as part of a general review of how ballistics/missiles work. It's not necessarily directly intertwined with Ghost Heat, or intended to be a substitute.

You're mostly right.
If we're looking at removing Voodoo maths as a bad mechanism, then I'm just looking at the path of least resistance for the moment.

The GH penalties on Ballistic/LRM are completely WTF and arbitrary at best. But you HAVE to have a penalty in some way, so that's where my rearm suggestion comes in.

Again, easiest solution is usually the best.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Eddrick, on 03 October 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

#1 Instant Pinpoint Convergance is the root of the problem. High Damage Alpha Strike is just a symptom. If an Alpha Strike were to spread its damage all over. It wouldn't make much differance if it was chain fired or not.

#2 Missiles, UACs, lower class ACs, and Clan ACs have a natural spread. So, there is no reason for them to be effected by Ghost Heat at all. Because, the damage of Missiles naturaly spreads and lower class ACs/UACs/Clan ACs have a very high chance to spread damage simlar to lasers. You can't pump a lot of damage into one location on someone withUACs, lower class ACs, or Clan ACs, unless they are not moving/twisting much.

#1 Can you make an effort to elaborate and be more specific, plz? Everything you've said is so vague and unspecific its impossible to tell where you're coming from. Example, you say pinpoint convergance is a problem.. Why is pinpoint convergance a problem? A person aims. They hit what they aim for. Why is this bad?

From my perspective, the pinpoint convergance issue sounds like a concealed attempt to nerf the aim of good players and eliminate the role of skill in this game. Its aimed, no pun intended, at ensuring good players can't hit what they aim for. If a good player aims at a center torso, a "progressive pinpoint convergance fix" guarantees they'll hit the right torso or an arm instead.

It won't make a difference to those with bad aim. Those with bad aim probably don't hit what they're aiming for, anyway. To them it won't make a difference if they aim at one part of a mech and hit a completely different one. That's probably normal life to them.

What effect it will have is to nerf the aim of those who do hit what they aim for, and ensure skill is irrelevent since no one will hit what their crosshairs are pointed at.

If that's what those who support "pinpoint convergance fixes" are asking for.. It sounds like a really bad idea. It sounds like something someone with terrible aim, would come up with to handicap everyone and drag the entire community down to their level.

#2 Lasers also have a natural spread, don't they? Lasers also have a difficult time focusing damage on one component on moving targets. Based on that, its inaccurate to say AC's and missiles are unique in terms of having "spread" on moving targets. And that claimed "uniqueness" should exempt them from ghost heat.

Its also inaccurate to compare UAC-5's with AC-20's or gauss rifles and lump them all into the same category. UAC-5's may be difficult to focus fire damage on moving targets. They require time to accumulate damage. Whereas gauss and AC-20's are one shot insta damage without the spread and time constraints of UAC-5.

If that's accurate, its inaccurate to pigeon hole UAC-5 and AC-20 into the same sandbox.

Given the high damage and ability to pinpoint focus damage in a single area, it makes sense that ballistics would have a ghost heat penalty. It makes sense that the high damage of SRM's and LRM's would have ghost heat penalties as well, although not for the same reasons.

LRM's need ghost heat to restrict their DPS and curb the tendency of multiple LRM boats to focus fire on the same target. SRM's need ghost heat to restrict their respective DPS and prevent them from being spammed ad infinitum. AC-20's, gauss rifles and other ballistics are similar if not the same, as are lasers and other weapons.

If SRM's didn't have ghost heat constraints maddogs with six srm-6 could spam srm's constantly without overheating. If LRM's didn't have ghost heat constraints LRM 60, LRM 80 or larger builds might become more common & LRM spam more of a problem. If AC's didn't have ghost heat, meta builds could remove heat sinks and substitute more weapons or ammo. Ghost heat is necessary for maintaining balance and preventing weapon types from becoming overpowered and having unfair advantages.

At least, that's how I see it. I'm not sure maybe if you elaborate more, I'll get a better idea of where you're coming from.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 03 October 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[Eddrick]

I Zeratul I, on 03 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

#1 Can you make an effort to elaborate and be more specific, plz? Everything you've said is so vague and unspecific its impossible to tell where you're coming from. Example, you say pinpoint convergance is a problem.. Why is pinpoint convergance a problem? A person aims. They hit what they aim for. Why is this bad?

From my perspective, the pinpoint convergance issue sounds like a concealed attempt to nerf the aim of good players and eliminate the role of skill in this game. Its aimed, no pun intended, at ensuring good players can't hit what they aim for. If a good player aims at a center torso, a "progressive pinpoint convergance fix" guarantees they'll hit the right torso or an arm instead.

It won't make a difference to those with bad aim. Those with bad aim probably don't hit what they're aiming for, anyway. To them it won't make a difference if they aim at one part of a mech and hit a completely different one. That's probably normal life to them.

What effect it will have is to nerf the aim of those who do hit what they aim for, and ensure skill is irrelevent since no one will hit what their crosshairs are pointed at.

If that's what those who support "pinpoint convergance fixes" are asking for.. It sounds like a really bad idea. It sounds like something someone with terrible aim, would come up with to handicap everyone and drag the entire community down to their level.

#2 Lasers also have a natural spread, don't they? Lasers also have a difficult time focusing damage on one component on moving targets. Based on that, its inaccurate to say AC's and missiles are unique in terms of having "spread" on moving targets. And that claimed "uniqueness" should exempt them from ghost heat.

Its also inaccurate to compare UAC-5's with AC-20's or gauss rifles and lump them all into the same category. UAC-5's may be difficult to focus fire damage on moving targets. They require time to accumulate damage. Whereas gauss and AC-20's are one shot insta damage without the spread and time constraints of UAC-5.

If that's accurate, its inaccurate to pigeon hole UAC-5 and AC-20 into the same sandbox.

Given the high damage and ability to pinpoint focus damage in a single area, it makes sense that ballistics would have a ghost heat penalty. It makes sense that the high damage of SRM's and LRM's would have ghost heat penalties as well, although not for the same reasons.

LRM's need ghost heat to restrict their DPS and curb the tendency of multiple LRM boats to focus fire on the same target. SRM's need ghost heat to restrict their respective DPS and prevent them from being spammed ad infinitum. AC-20's, gauss rifles and other ballistics are similar if not the same, as are lasers and other weapons.

If SRM's didn't have ghost heat constraints maddogs with six srm-6 could spam srm's constantly without overheating. If LRM's didn't have ghost heat constraints LRM 60, LRM 80 or larger builds might become more common & LRM spam more of a problem. If AC's didn't have ghost heat, meta builds could remove heat sinks and substitute more weapons or ammo. Ghost heat is necessary for maintaining balance and preventing weapon types from becoming overpowered and having unfair advantages.

At least, that's how I see it. I'm not sure maybe if you elaborate more, I'll get a better idea of where you're coming from.

.

It's Instant and Pinpoint Convergance. Remove either or both and you have no problems with mass damage hitting the same spot.

The spots that shots hit have to be predictable. But, it doesn't have to be Pinpoint. If the Convergance isn't Instant. You remove the persons ability to make quick shots with all shots hitting the same location and repeated alphas to the same location.

"Don't nerf skill". That is actualy not what I want.

One example of a predictable spread is: Having convergance not come to a pinpoint. Imagine a circle (maybe, 1/8 size of the screen) with weapons always hitting the same differant spots on the circle (Like a weapon on the top right will hit a location on the top right of the circle, every time. Top left alays hits top left of circle and so on). To make them all hit the same location. Chainfire with small adjustments for each weapon.

Edited by Eddrick, 04 October 2014 - 04:58 PM.

[Maxx Blue]

No thanks to repair and rearm as a balance mechanism. It only means you get to be OP if you are willing to loose money I a particular drop. However, I am a fan of taking ballistics and missiles out of ghost heat. There have been a ton of proposals for balance that are more transparent and more even across all players. Here are just a few:
Homeless bills targeting computer
Flat caps on simultaneous numbers of each weapon that can be fired.
Having recoil/cockpit shake affect the firing mech as well as the one being hit.
Add a chance for jamming or internal damage if to many weapons are fired at once.
Reduce heat capacity and raise cooling rate.
Etc, etc, etc.

I would say all of those would produce more even results than repair and rearm would.

There are plenty of options that have been suggested. At this point it is just a matter of getting PGI to try some of them, out on the test server to see what they do.

[Willard Phule]

Um......

If the whole point behind "ghost heat" was to limit massive alphas...a problem during the pop-tart days and before...I wonder why they didn't simply tweak the recharge rate on everything, as in, make them longer. Got a problem with multiple PPCs? Add .X seconds to the recharge rate for every PPC linked to a group, or if that's too complicated, per every PPC on the mech. Do that with all your "problem" weapons....from multiple ACs to multiple LRM launchers.

Sure, dual Gauss will still hurt...it's supposed to....but if the additional time is enough, you might be able to get cover before he shoots twice.