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Reactions / Rebuttals To The October 2Nd Town Hall Meeting


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#1 Colby Boucher

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 08:40 AM

First of all, I'd like to say that I absolutely love how honest Russ is being when it comes to mistakes that have been made and really like the "fresh start" vibe that's coming from PGI at the moment. I honestly feel pretty bad for you guys, and I find it amazing that you've dealt with the amount of grief that has been thrown around for the past year. It's as if you're just now stepping out of a trench that you've been stuck in for over a year, and are pushing hard in order to gain some sort of ground. Also, while I wasn't able to pledge due to pretty much having no money (I'm just 18, saving up for college) I'm really bummed that Transverse doesn't seem to be panning out the way you wanted it to. Seems that the Star Citizen train flattens all competition.

The big thing I would like to talk about is heat scale, unsurprisingly. Russ mentions that the vibe from the community at the time heat scale was implemented was "I should never be shot by 6 PPC mechs, ever." I think that this is still the case, and I think that the heat scale system is actually decent, except for some tuning issues (mlasers should really be brought up to 8 per alpha, stock Novas overheating the way they do is just unacceptable) The issue is that we still often see people complaining about one-shot kills. Just yesterday, I saw someone complaining about how he was one-shot killed in his Kit Fox. Honestly, now, the kit fox has something like 25-30 center torso armor, am I right? Even my BJ-1 with 2 AC/2s and 4 med lasers has a 24 pt alpha potential. Without spreading damage around and moving constantly you're bound to get one-shotted. The only reasonable and fairly easy way for that to change, that I could think of, would be to double armor ratings. Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't armor values already doubled once? Doesn't it seem like a little much? Certainly something that could be thrown on the test server without much trouble, I would think. The other, less direct, more difficult solution (possibly along with quadrupled armor) is to add penalties for high heat. While I want real heat penalties as much as the next guy, it really is a question of accessibility and fun. I would have a blast with heat penalties, and I think a lot of us would. But many players I see hardly have the discipline to keep themselves from shutting down, let alone stay below 50-70% heat. I imagine games where everyone has whatever penalties heat adds, nearly all the time. That might not be a bad thing, if the penalties aren't unbearable, but with most people ignoring / just dealing with the heat penalties the problem might just remain.

On a side note, I agree that more people would complain about cone of fire mechanics than be happy with them... While some people feel very strongly on the issue, I think most people don't mention it because if anything we're happy to see a game that boils down to skill, not Call of Duty - esque spray and pray.

Public test servers, people! They're grrrrrrreat!

I totally agree with Russ' assessment of arm lock. It may be nice for new players, but the advantages it adds for pinpoint damage are way too high to be acceptable. Either do something like allowing it for the first 50 matches, or more radically, if your concept of smaller matches for new players was implemented, only allow arm lock in those specific "tutorial" games. Speaking of which, perhaps that concept could become the new Training Grounds? (PLEASE BE AWARE THAT I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND THAT THIS CONCEPT IS NOTHING BUT A STRAY THOUGHT, CERTAINLY NOT A PROMISE.)


[MOST IMPORTANT, IMMEDIATE INFO]
Quirks. Like everyone, I'm super exited for the diversity that truly significant, specific quirks will bring. But I have a significant fear. Russ mentions some mechs getting range buffs for certain weapons. One of the major learning curve points of MWO in my opinion is learning, at least roughly, how far away your enemies can attack you effectively from. If some mechs get range buffs similar to the near medium-laser range you are suggesting for some locusts, It would severely complicate the process of learning those ranges - if a small laser doesn't always have the range of a normal small laser, it could cause new players to have no trust in the idea that they are safe from those mechs at 200 meters away. It would severely hamper communication of basic, fairly core game concepts, and unlike heat scale I don't think there is any good way to communicate that information simply on the battlefield. Information Warfare is partially based on the idea that if you know you're enemy you can beat them, but I think range buffs make it far too difficult to know you're enemy from a tactical perspective.
[/ MOST IMPORTANT IMMEDIATE INFO]

I liked Russ' honesty on his explanation of not giving us the ability to save loadouts, and I'm perfectly fine with the idea that it's just good buisness to not allow it. But beyond that, I personally think it adds to the idea that re-purposing a mech is a difficult, lengthy, and costly process. Perhaps a compromise would be giving Omni-mech the ability to save load-outs, specifically? But that's just a dream, really. I don't expect it to happen.

I'm not going to bother discussing ECM at the moment, as Russ said it's an extremely complex issue and really deserves it's own time and discussion.

Maps! I love maps! More specifically, I'm very interested In what I'm hearing in regards to how CW maps will be created. As far as I can tell, if new "asset packs" are created there will be an Assault / Conquest style map to release them, and then those asset packs can be reused and spammed into new CW maps. Sounds like a good way to get maps out quickly, which is really the main concern IMHO. Reusing assets worked wonderfully for Battlefield Bad Company, and it should work fairly well here. While it's a bit premature to suggest, perhaps instead of community created maps you could allow people to submit their own assets and asset packs to diversify the visual style of the game as it grows.

In no way am I saying my word is gospel. I'm just an average, or slightly below average player offering his opinions. Everyone else is invited to do the same as long as we stick to to topics I've already mentioned. I don't want this thread to run away like some do, I'm hoping for actual constructive ideas.

Edit: Sorry for any formatting errors, this took a while to write and I got logged out before I finished. HTML tags ended up everywhere, tried to remove them all.

Edited by Colby Boucher, 03 October 2014 - 08:42 AM.


#2 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 08:56 AM

The more Russ talks, the more I like him.

There aren't a lot of people I can say that about.

#3 Xarian

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:22 AM

Sized hardpoints would also kill the X PPC builds.

#4 Mcgral18

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:27 AM

He didn't remember progressive convergence, and isn't aware of the many community ideas that solve the issues of MIPC in a elegant fashion.

Oh well.

#5 kapusta11

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:30 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

He didn't remember progressive convergence, and isn't aware of the many community ideas that solve the issues of MIPC in a elegant fashion.

Oh well.


Can I have a link?

#6 Mcgral18

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:32 AM

View Postkapusta11, on 03 October 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:


Can I have a link?


It was at some point during the third hour, I believe. Maybe late into the second.

That's the best I can do.

#7 Mechteric

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:37 AM

On the Ghost Heat topic, we have to remember that when it was implemented PPCs were very low heat AND there was no damage penalty for going above 100% heat. You'd just shutdown and some seconds later come back up unscathed. I think without Ghost Heat as it is now, when that same player goes over 100% heat they are still going to overheat only now they are going to be cooking some serious armor!

Also combine this with their future implementation (I'm assuming) where when you're running really hot (like > 70%?) heat that your mech starts to slow down and other negative effects, then I think you can arrive to the conclusion that weapons are hot enough on their own without adding in compounded heat interest.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 October 2014 - 09:38 AM.


#8 Colby Boucher

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:52 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

He didn't remember progressive convergence, and isn't aware of the many community ideas that solve the issues of MIPC in a elegant fashion.

Oh well.


I agree that Russ not remembering progressive convergence is really surprising and more than a little annoying, but I also doubt anything will be done about convergence, ever. PGI seems like they're set on the matter and I really think that we should move on to worrying about other things.

#9 kapusta11

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 09:59 AM

Russ thinks that 6xPPC Stalker creates an issue but Heat Scale is not very important, I call it a gg. <_<

#10 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:01 AM

I tend to lean toward the current heat scale has mechs running too hot and also there is a massive issue with how the amount of heat sinks mounted affects your ability to manage heat or utilize your weapons.

For example, you could have a say a 1.24 heat management score on one mech and a 1.15 heat management score on another mech but find that you actually have better heat management on the mech with 1.15 heat management due to the fact it mounts 20 DHS vs the higher ranked one only mounting 12 DHS.

Prime example, 12 DHS can't manage 4 C-ER MLs generating only 24 heat because within 2-3 bursts your at Overheat. However 27 DHS seem to manage 2 ER PPCs and 4 C-ER ML generating 54 heat just fine.

The ratio of heat generated to heat sinked is exactly the same but because of the way a larger amount of heat sinks creates a much larger available heat pool, the different in the usability of the weapons load out is massively different.

#11 Scratx

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:11 AM

Doubling armor again isn't going to solve the problem. It's only going to make it so that you must use high pin-point FLD builds in order to crack the enemy before they crack you.

I don't want to feel like my weapons do no more than scratch paint off my enemies'.

#12 Colby Boucher

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:17 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 03 October 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

I tend to lean toward the current heat scale has mechs running too hot and also there is a massive issue with how the amount of heat sinks mounted affects your ability to manage heat or utilize your weapons.

For example, you could have a say a 1.24 heat management score on one mech and a 1.15 heat management score on another mech but find that you actually have better heat management on the mech with 1.15 heat management due to the fact it mounts 20 DHS vs the higher ranked one only mounting 12 DHS.

Prime example, 12 DHS can't manage 4 C-ER MLs generating only 24 heat because within 2-3 bursts your at Overheat. However 27 DHS seem to manage 2 ER PPCs and 4 C-ER ML generating 54 heat just fine.

The ratio of heat generated to heat sinked is exactly the same but because of the way a larger amount of heat sinks creates a much larger available heat pool, the different in the usability of the weapons load out is massively different.


Agreed 100%. # of heatsinks affecting heat capacity is just silly and make the system overly complicated. If heat capacity was made equal across the board than I would completely support removing heat scale as things like 6PPC stalkers would probably make you overheat anyways.

#13 Colby Boucher

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:22 AM

View PostScratx, on 03 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

Doubling armor again isn't going to solve the problem. It's only going to make it so that you must use high pin-point FLD builds in order to crack the enemy before they crack you.

I don't want to feel like my weapons do no more than scratch paint off my enemies'.


While I agree that making our mechs feel less powerful is not a good idea, doubling armor again does not make any weapon system any more or less effective than it is now, despite not necessarily feeling that way. Instead of certain builds one-shotting you, they would two-shot you. Instead of it taking 10 AC/2 shots to make a dent in someone's armor, it would take 20. And think of this - by that time, which mech would be better, heat wise? That mech that could two-shot you might just severely overheat by doing so, while the AC/2 mech would be perfectly fine and continue fighting. (bad example, one AC/2 isn't effective as it is)

#14 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:23 AM

View PostXarian, on 03 October 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Sized hardpoints would also kill the X PPC builds.


And a ton of other builds that are perfectly valid.

Sized hardpoints would be a "nuclear option" that would annihilate MWO's open customization, invalidate half of people's hangars, and piss everyone off. Doesn't matter that it's good design. Nobody would be happy except the hardcores who are presently (Chronojam excluded) trying to use their closed wallets to bully PGI into removing it. And I suspect that even half of them would go "Oh...oh...oops" once they got a good look at their handiwork. They really have not thought their ideas through at all.

I have only seen ONE alternative that MIGHT be simpler and more sensible than Ghost Heat: lowering heat threshold. And even that would cause sweeping changes to the game, force everyone to relearn it, and require weeks of chassis-by-chassis design review.

It might simply be that we can't put the genie back in the bottle now.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 03 October 2014 - 10:28 AM.


#15 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:38 AM

I think Russ specifically suggested that ECM was supposed to be an easy fix and even mentioned his proposal, but stated that the Community Masters, wanted to rewrite everything from ECM, to LRMs, to Radar, and movement to fix it. And if that is what the "Blessed Chosen" want, then we will wait until hell freezes over to get there, no need to implement some very easy and effective changes in the mean time.

The convergence discussion was a mystery. Stating that we cannot have non-pinpoint convergence because that is what his "Top Competitive Experts" say the game must have. The mere thought that if you fire 4 AC5 rounds from 900m and one hits the CT, 2 hit the LT and one misses complete was unacceptable. (NOTE the "Top Competitive Experts" should not be confused with the "The Chosen Player Council", even though there may be overlap between the two. the Experts decide what issues the Chosen get to debate and what issues don't).

One of my favorite things mentioned were the MWO training wheels, things like 3rd person view, arm lock, etc. Russ was shocked and amazed that members of the MWO community would abuse these systems after their cadet bonus. Easy-mode is supposed to be a learning tool, not a crutch.

#16 IceSerpent

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:46 AM

View PostRebas Kradd, on 03 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

And a ton of other builds that are perfectly valid.

Sized hardpoints would be a "nuclear option" that would annihilate MWO's open customization, invalidate half of people's hangars, and piss everyone off. Doesn't matter that it's good design. Nobody would be happy except the hardcores who are presently (Chronojam excluded) trying to use their closed wallets to bully PGI into removing it. And I suspect that even half of them would go "Oh...oh...oops" once they got a good look at their handiwork. They really have not thought their ideas through at all.


Can you elaborate on this (aside from making people to re-do their builds part)? Sized hardpoints would simply allow PGI to set maximum size of certain hardpoints on certain mechs (i.e. size would default to "unlimited" unless specified otherwise), what (presumably negative) effect would it have on a ton of valid builds?

#17 Tastian

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 10:55 AM

I listened to the entire twitch Q&A this morning. Russ is very honest and open and approachable. This is the exact opposite I've thought about PGI for the majority of 2013 and first half of 2014. I like how honest he was about his own stubbornness when 3rd person was put in. He totally owns his own mistakes and clarifies IGP's issues (with for example IGP not wanting PGI to make maps).

After the last month, I really feel much more confident in PGI as a developer. I may not agree with everything they do, but I like the new leaf.

That being said, I'm very excited about the new quirks. I don't think it'll confuse people with regards to weapon ranges. Every mech is already different with regards to hit boxes, turning speed, arm movement, acceleration, etc. Knowing that every mech has additional quirks means that the general rules with regards to heat scale, ghost heat, weapon recharge, armor, weapon ranges, etc just adds to their uniqueness. And don't forget that mechs can equip weapon modules to change ranges as it is. I for one am really looking forward to the IS quirk pass.

#18 XxXAbsolutZeroXxX

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 11:32 AM

View PostViktor Drake, on 03 October 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

#1. I tend to lean toward the current heat scale has mechs running too hot

#2. there is a massive issue with how the amount of heat sinks mounted affects your ability to manage heat or utilize your weapons.

For example, you could have a say a 1.24 heat management score on one mech and a 1.15 heat management score on another mech but find that you actually have better heat management on the mech with 1.15 heat management due to the fact it mounts 20 DHS vs the higher ranked one only mounting 12 DHS.

Prime example, 12 DHS can't manage 4 C-ER MLs generating only 24 heat because within 2-3 bursts your at Overheat. However 27 DHS seem to manage 2 ER PPCs and 4 C-ER ML generating 54 heat just fine.

The ratio of heat generated to heat sinked is exactly the same but because of the way a larger amount of heat sinks creates a much larger available heat pool, the different in the usability of the weapons load out is massively different.



#1 Just to give you a different perspective: I like the way heat currently functions in this game.

I boat a banshee with 4 PPC's and a boar's head with 5 ER large lasers with the current heat scaling. If I alpha 4 PPC's or 5 ER large lasers, I would overheat very quickly. But, if I chainfire them one-at-a-time and practice disciplined fire control, the heat is manageable. Chain firing 4 PPC's or 5 ER LL's and having all 4-5 shots hit the same component on a mech is harder than alpha'ing and hitting the same component. Making a conscious effort to shoot quickly enough to inflict 'ok' damage and yet slow enough to avoid overheating also takes more skill than alpha spamming.

The current system of ghost heat scaling encourages chain firing. It encourages heat management and fire control. It promotes things that take skill, discipline and restraint. These are gameplay aspects that lend depth to a game like MWO and make it a good prospect for an e-sports, FPS game.

From my perspective, it seems as if those who dislike the heat scaling want to make things easier. They want to eliminate having to pace themselves and make a conscious effort to slow down the rate at which they fire their weapons to avoid overheating. They want to eliminate chain firing and have games devolve into hit-and-run alpha spamfests.

In my humble opinion, chain firing and heat management takes more skill than alpha spamming. The current system encourages those things. This implies the current system is a good one.

#2 Heat efficiency is based on alpha fire statistics. Its based on what would happen if every weapon on a mech is fired simultaneously.

An atlas with LRM's, medium lasers and an AC-20 isn't likely to alpha LRM's, medium lasers and an AC-20 at the same time. Its weapons work at different ranges and fire at different rates. In game, an atlas isn't likely to fire all of its guns at the same time. Its more likely to fire one grouping, then another, and another. Weapon usage is split.

A jenner with 6 medium lasers is much more likely to alpha all of its guns, consistently. All of its weapons work in the same range and fire at the same rate. This translates to more of a heat overlap and increased chance of heat scaling penalty.

That could explain how an atlas with an AC-20, medium lasers and LRM's with 20 DHS rated @ 1.15 may seem to be more heat efficient than a jenner with 6 medium lasers, 12 DHS and a 1.25 heat rating.

.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 03 October 2014 - 11:36 AM.


#19 Davegt27

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 11:36 AM

I missed this town hall meeting so I don't have a reaction

#20 Scratx

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Posted 03 October 2014 - 11:39 AM

View PostColby Boucher, on 03 October 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:


While I agree that making our mechs feel less powerful is not a good idea, doubling armor again does not make any weapon system any more or less effective than it is now, despite not necessarily feeling that way. Instead of certain builds one-shotting you, they would two-shot you. Instead of it taking 10 AC/2 shots to make a dent in someone's armor, it would take 20. And think of this - by that time, which mech would be better, heat wise? That mech that could two-shot you might just severely overheat by doing so, while the AC/2 mech would be perfectly fine and continue fighting. (bad example, one AC/2 isn't effective as it is)


Except that builds that spread damage all over and which would need to five-shot you would now need to ten-shot you.

All doubling armor again will accomplish is make accurate weapons and skill to drill through CTs even more important and anyone who likes to brawl and use SRMs, LBs, clan ACs or spam LRMs from a distance will have an even worse time to actually kill stuff with.

I won't deny that a small increase in armor or internal hitpoints might not be needed after the quirkage fest in Oct. 21st to increase TTK, but outright doubling armor again is way, way, WAY too much. Even an AC20 won't be doing more damage than a medium laser would be doing in table top at that point........





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