418 replies to this topic

[Alek Ituin]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do not want.

If you think dual 20 jagers are a "problem build" you should be playing hello kitty online.

Jaegerbombs are annoying, but not an actual problem. I think their point was to address the major boat builds, rather than promoting those builds as a serious issue in need of addressing.

It is reeeeeeeeeally frustrating to walk around a corner and see your CT disappear though. Fakkin Jaegerbombs... >_>

[Tastian]

Alwrath, on 06 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

People have suggested this before, and its still a terrible idea. Alot of players including myself will leave this game if it ever came to fruition, because half the reason we still play the game is because of the mech customization you can do. Very bad idea for the game as a whole.

I know many persons are adamant about not having further weapon restrictions. Some would love complete open customization (put as much as you want anywhere). Others want stock only (Stock Mech Mondays). MWO has the MOST mechs of any mechwarrior title already and many more on the way (and lots more after that). Soon, new mechs will offer nothing new to the table because everything will be taken. Is it a bad thing that the K2 or a Jager can't carry an AC20? It would have seemed so a year ago; but some mechs were more built for it (like the Hunchback and Atlas). When I see a new mech proposed, I automatically think there's nothing new being offered. Restrictions breath life into new chassis.

[Fut]

I actually don't mind the concept of sized hardpoints.
It's frustrating for me as a HBK Pilot to have to deal with that overly large RT, due to the massive AC20 on my small Chassis - only to see Mechs of similar size (and smaller!) cram an AC20 onto their chassis and the gun shrinks to fit the location.

It's ridiculous.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

I do not see how this adds anything to the game. Frankly, I'd rather have ghost heat.

[keith]

this would be more work on balance devs. let say with the k2. u make the ears 4 E crits each. this would allow either 2 ppc 2 med, 4 ll, 2 lrg 2 med. some decent ear configs. then in the body u could have 1 E+ 1B crit. if coded right the devs could expand/subtract crits depending on FoTM configs for balance. 1 crit can make break a build. even with the k2 give it 2/3 B for some ac/s

[Tastian]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do not want.

If you think dual 20 jagers are a "problem build" you should be playing hello kitty online.

Jagerbombs used to be a huge problem before ghost heat (and clan mechs like the TWolf and DWhale) Russ offered a challenge with the hopes of maybe eliminating some or all of ghost heat. I think you'll find this is doing just that.

[Tastian]

keith, on 06 October 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

this would be more work on balance devs. let say with the k2. u make the ears 4 E crits each. this would allow either 2 ppc 2 med, 4 ll, 2 lrg 2 med. some decent ear configs. then in the body u could have 1 E+ 1B crit. if coded right the devs could expand/subtract crits depending on FoTM configs for balance. 1 crit can make break a build. even with the k2 give it 2/3 B for some ac/s

I'm actually trying to keep the hardpoint numbers that PGI has handed out for mechs as they are. If you put 4E on the K2 arms plus 2 additional energy in the torso, you'd have 10 energy = 10 med lasers. That would be bad. The K2 offers high energy points on the arms for nice PPC or ER Large Laser shots.

Again though, it may seem to hurt the K2 a bit, but its also lowering all the mechs a tad. PPCs, AC20s, and Gauss rifles would seem special for certain mechs again.

[Ultimax]

Alek Ituin, on 06 October 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

Jaegerbombs are annoying, but not an actual problem. I think their point was to address the major boat builds, rather than promoting those builds as a serious issue in need of addressing.

It is reeeeeeeeeally frustrating to walk around a corner and see your CT disappear though. Fakkin Jaegerbombs... >_>

Major boating is how some mechs were literally designed to function.

SEE: Nova prime, Jenner F, most Stalkers, etc.

The Dire Wolf prime comes with FOUR CERLLAS stock.

The only thing this change will do is shift the meta to builds that can boat many smaller weapons.

Please get over this idea because it is dumb and will solve nothing.

[Eddrick]

One good thing about limiting the size of weapons that can be mounted into a Hardpoint is that it give several variants a purpose. For example: Without size restrictions on hardpoints. There would be no reason for the Catapult-K4 to exist when it starts getting developed. Because, its 2 stock Heavy PPCs would be able to be fitted onto the Catapult-K2.

Edited by Eddrick, 06 October 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[Darwins Dog]

I think that your proposal could use a few more details as to which specific builds you are trying to eliminate. You mention the AC/20 Jagers, but clearly not everyone agrees that they are problematic. What stalker builds do you see as a problem? LRM and PPC boating isn't very descriptive. If the weapon combination is the problem, then we need to know what you are eliminating in order to know if it is possible on another chassis. If it's about what a mech is "supposed" to carry, then I have to disagree with you. I enjoy seeing the variety that people use, and I think it's one of the strengths of the game.

It seems that a lot of the complaints I'm reading are more in regards to the geometry than the weapons themselves. This is something I fully agree with. AC/20s should be comparable in size no matter what mech they are on. A SHD should have the same size hunch as a HBK for the same weapon. That's a reason to see more geometry tweaks, not to restrict builds.

[TexAce]

As much as I would like Ghost heat to go, this is not the right way.

What should be done is using quirks to put mechs into distinctive roles, some are good in this, some are good in that. If you wanna boat 12 MLs in a mech that is not supposed to be good at it (perhaps it has a negative quirk of +10heat on laser weapons) then you are not prohibited, it will just not have the desired effect.

[Tastian]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Major boating is how some mechs were literally designed to function.

SEE: Nova prime, Jenner F, most Stalkers, etc.

The Dire Wolf prime comes with FOUR CERLLAS stock.

The only thing this change will do is shift the meta to builds that can boat many smaller weapons.

Please get over this idea because it is dumb and will solve nothing.

Ultimatum X. Are you an old Battletech player or a new MWO player? If you are an old Battletech player, I'd like to know why you'd resist an idea that brings mechs back closer to their original stock loadouts and purposes? And if you are a new MWO player (or old BT player), I invite you to pretend for a little while that you'd go along with it, and point to specific builds following this criteria that could be a challenge or game breaking. Or maybe how you would tweak it to overcome problems instead of just resisting.

[Alek Ituin]

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Major boating is how some mechs were literally designed to function.

SEE: Nova prime, Jenner F, most Stalkers, etc.

The Dire Wolf prime comes with FOUR CERLLAS stock.

The only thing this change will do is shift the meta to builds that can boat many smaller weapons.

Please get over this idea because it is dumb and will solve nothing.

Uhhhh, I'm not totally in support of or against this idea yet?

Maybe you shouldn't accuse me of anything yet?

Edited by Alek Ituin, 06 October 2014 - 12:04 PM.

[Scratx]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Jagerbombs used to be a huge problem before ghost heat (and clan mechs like the TWolf and DWhale) Russ offered a challenge with the hopes of maybe eliminating some or all of ghost heat. I think you'll find this is doing just that.

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm actually trying to keep the hardpoint numbers that PGI has handed out for mechs as they are. If you put 4E on the K2 arms plus 2 additional energy in the torso, you'd have 10 energy = 10 med lasers. That would be bad. The K2 offers high energy points on the arms for nice PPC or ER Large Laser shots.

Again though, it may seem to hurt the K2 a bit, but its also lowering all the mechs a tad. PPCs, AC20s, and Gauss rifles would seem special for certain mechs again.

So, does this mean I can grab my Stock Nova Prime and FIRE ALL THE LAZORS into the back of an Atlas and insta-kill it without melting down?

Cool.

Where do I sign up? /sarcasm

[keith]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm actually trying to keep the hardpoint numbers that PGI has handed out for mechs as they are. If you put 4E on the K2 arms plus 2 additional energy in the torso, you'd have 10 energy = 10 med lasers. That would be bad. The K2 offers high energy points on the arms for nice PPC or ER Large Laser shots.

Again though, it may seem to hurt the K2 a bit, but its also lowering all the mechs a tad. PPCs, AC20s, and Gauss rifles would seem special for certain mechs again.

ya maybe i did give it took many slots, but if i make a skeleton mech. give the k2 a std 300 its has 24 free tons and 37 free slots after endo. using 10 meds would not be a viable config, way too much free tonage left. way too hot with IS double HS not enough on there. sometimes just through extra slots with a hard points system works because of the freedom its offers. have to think outside of the box with hardpoint system more = better

[Tastian]

Darwins Dog, on 06 October 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

I think that your proposal could use a few more details as to which specific builds you are trying to eliminate. You mention the AC/20 Jagers, but clearly not everyone agrees that they are problematic. What stalker builds do you see as a problem? LRM and PPC boating isn't very descriptive. If the weapon combination is the problem, then we need to know what you are eliminating in order to know if it is possible on another chassis. If it's about what a mech is "supposed" to carry, then I have to disagree with you. I enjoy seeing the variety that people use, and I think it's one of the strengths of the game.

It seems that a lot of the complaints I'm reading are more in regards to the geometry than the weapons themselves. This is something I fully agree with. AC/20s should be comparable in size no matter what mech they are on. A SHD should have the same size hunch as a HBK for the same weapon. That's a reason to see more geometry tweaks, not to restrict builds.

I have to agree with the 'geometry' side of things too. As you mention, the Hunchback has always been special because it was made to carry an AC20. But why bring a Hunchback, when a Shadowhawk can carry an AC20 AND jump? Same with the side torso of a Catapult. It just wasn't *made* to carry a HUGE ballistic.

[Gyrok]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

I'll bite.

So, I've gone through several mechs and fixed this. The idea is to limit hardpoint sizes. For example, the Catapult K2 has a ballistic slot in its side torsos. Instead of just being ANY ballistic, it has a ballistic slot of size 1. Meaning it can ONLY carry an AC2 or MG in the side torso. With this in mind, I'm studying several mechs with every variant for variation and removing problem builds.

Using this method, here is an energy slot chart

[SLOT SIZE 1] - Small Laser, Med Laser, Med Pulse Laser
[SLOT SIZE 2] - Slot size 1 plus Large Laser, Large Pulse Laser
[SLOT SIZE 3] - Slot size 1, Slot size 2, PPC, ERPPC


First case study:

Stalker.

Problem builds: LRM and PPC boating


**Stalker 3F**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 3H**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [6 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 4N**
RA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [6 crit] missile

LA
2x [1 crit] energy

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile


**Stalker 5M**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT
1x [2 crit] missile

LT
1x [1 crit] missile
1x [2 crit] missile

CT
1x [2 crit] energy


**Stalker 5S**
RA/LA
2x [1 crit] energy
1x [3 crit] missile

RT/LT
1x [3 crit] energy
1x [2 crit] missile



If you notice, ALL stalker stock builds are maintained but there is greater diversity among the stalker variants. Also, LRM boats and energy boats are removed.

More to come.

As much as I like this idea...the issue with LRM stalkers stems from people mounting 5 LRM5s on them and a crap ton of ammo with XL engines and 0-4 ML.

Yes, you have some mounting absurd builds with LRM 75-100, but those are not really viable builds, you just get in their face and they have NO backup weapons typically.

LRM5s have entirely too much impulse, and need to be brought down in that regard considerably.

While your sized hardpoints reign in the ridiculous LRM builds, it leaves the more potent LRM5 builds unchecked.

Frankly, I have always thought you should get considerably more DPS from larger launchers. Enough to warrant bringing them over the tightly packed LRM5 boats.

If the LRM20 was more desirable than mass boated LRM5s, this would be a viable and logical way to curb it. Since the LRM20 is, in fact, less desirable than mass boated smaller launchers, the issue will remain.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Tastian, on 06 October 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

When I see a new mech proposed, I automatically think there's nothing new being offered. Restrictions breath life into new chassis.

No it doesnt breath new life into a chassis at all it restricts it, and there are less builds available to a chassis, which means you cant come up with cool unique builds for every chassis, and the game gets even more boring. No thanks.

[Roland]

Zack Esseth, on 06 October 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

The only thing coming from changes to come Hardpoint size restrictions is going to be less diversity on the Field.

This is incorrect.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Fut, on 06 October 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

I actually don't mind the concept of sized hardpoints.
It's frustrating for me as a HBK Pilot to have to deal with that overly large RT, due to the massive AC20 on my small Chassis - only to see Mechs of similar size (and smaller!) cram an AC20 onto their chassis and the gun shrinks to fit the location.

It's ridiculous.

There is some truth to that. Then again, that's another reason why I wanted to see the ballistic barrels grouped together on the Hunch. Might as well have a tight shell cluster to offset the big "hump".

Again though, not terribly against the idea of the thread, but the K2 would be completely wiped out if it went through (without good energy quirk buffs).

Even then, PPCs would have to be good in this mech (and the Awesome too).

As it stands now, PPCs are pretty hot and slow. If this system cools them off and increases travel time, I think the K2 would still need to see improved PPC buffs above and beyond to make up for it's low hard point count vs other Heavies.

I'm just concentrating on the K2 because I play it often enough and know it fairly well.