121 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Well I was reviewing the tournament results and so far we are seeing:

Clan Lights = Under Performing vs. IS lights, by a significant margin.

Clan Mediums = Equal performance to IS mediums.

Clan Heavies = Equal performance to IS heavies.

Clan Assaults = Over-performing slightly.


So all in all pretty balanced especially when you consider what we have upcoming which is the fast Clan light to fill the missing gap in Clan light mech performance, and the King Crab which will give the IS a mech capable of going head-to-head against the Dire Wolf.

Of course I would like to point out, this is BEFORE the Clan XL nerf by the way. If performance is balanced now, then when they nerf the Clan XLs....well guess we are going to have some very crappy preforming Clan mechs aren't we.

Guess they will have to rebuff the clan weapons when the XL fix goes in if they want them to remain competitive.

Just something for everyone to think about.

[Xarian]

Viktor Drake, on 04 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Well I was reviewing the tournament results and so far we are seeing:

Clan Lights = Under Performing vs. IS lights, by a significant margin.

Clan Mediums = Equal performance to IS mediums.

Clan Heavies = Equal performance to IS heavies.

Clan Assaults = Over-performing slightly.


So all in all pretty balanced especially when you consider what we have upcoming which is the fast Clan light to fill the missing gap in Clan light mech performance, and the King Crab which will give the IS a mech capable of going head-to-head against the Dire Wolf.

Of course I would like to point out, this is BEFORE the Clan XL nerf by the way. If performance is balanced now, then when they nerf the Clan XLs....well guess we are going to have some very crappy preforming Clan mechs aren't we.

Guess they will have to rebuff the clan weapons when the XL fix goes in if they want them to remain competitive.

Just something for everyone to think about.

You're assuming that the scoring rubric used by PGI for this tournament somehow equates into overall game balance.

• The scoring rubric rewards only selfish "lone wolf" behavior.
  
• The DWF outdamages every other assault because it carries more and better guns. The scoring rubric rewards kills and damage. Therefore, the DWF will get higher scores. It's also the slowest mech in the game (though you can make IS mechs slower if you want) which means that you're significantly easier to kill than, for example, an AS7 or a BNC. The STK, while of comparative speed, is also significantly harder to kill than a DWF due to its size and hitboxes.
  
• The KFX and ADR don't do much damage or get many kills because they don't have enough speed to stay alive, and get signifcantly less damage than a FS9 or JR7. The scoring rubric rewards kills and damage, which are things that the KFX and ADR aren't going to excel at. Therefore, the KFX and ADR get lower scores.
  
• Thankfully the game isn't exclusively about getting yourself kills and doing damage - it's about your team getting kills and doing damage.
  
• Want a better rubric? Only use W/L percentage. The KFX isn't going to do much on these damage-based scoring rubrics, but it'll do extremely well in terms of W/L due to its support toolbox.

[Zyllos]

Not only that, the teams are mixed.

Rerun this event with Clan vs IS.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

This is still a stupid ass way to draw any assertions.

Just like the rest of the Clan vs. IS testing.

It's all dumb and a terrible way to come up with a conclusion.

See kids, for me this isn't about IS vs. Clan.

This is about PGI's never ending idiocy when it comes to balancing this game.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 04 October 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Zyllos, on 04 October 2014 - 01:35 PM, said:

Not only that, the teams are mixed.

Rerun this event with Clan vs IS.

See this I don't understand. Honestly sounds like someone wants to hold on to the Clans are OP notion and is making excuses to me.

Unlike Clan vs IS matches where often people are playing sub-optimal IS builds as they are forced to level 3 chassis usually 2 of which suck wind, what we are seeing in this tournament is players selecting their absolutely best mechs, basically the absolutely best IS builds vs the best Clan builds and the overall numbers are damn near balanced.

How is this not a good way to judge? This is individual mech performance vs individual mech performance as piloted by the absolute best pilots in all ELO brackets. The fact that it is mixed teams is even a better gauge because it takes out the "Clan's are OP, we already lost so I am not going to play my best or might possibly rage quit" factor that dominates the Clan vs IS tests and totally skews the results.

What we see is that the best Clanner heavy pilots, undoubtedly piloting a Timber Wolf are barely keeping pace with the best IS mechs. I mean it is as simple and plain to see as the sun in the sky. How can anyone look at the match results and honestly believe the Clan's are OP now?

Also look at the major difference between the two tournaments. Clans dominated first time around and that is not happening now. How people can't recognize this is beyond my comprehension.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 04 October 2014 - 04:32 PM.

[Aresye]

Funny. Last tournament everybody was using the fact that Clan Heavies were so far ahead in score as evidence that the Timberwolf is OP, yet now when the scores are more balanced the same people are like, "Well, this doesn't mean anything, erbrbrbrbr."

[Angel of Annihilation]

Aresye, on 04 October 2014 - 04:37 PM, said:

Funny. Last tournament everybody was using the fact that Clan Heavies were so far ahead in score as evidence that the Timberwolf is OP, yet now when the scores are more balanced the same people are like, "Well, this doesn't mean anything, erbrbrbrbr."

My point exactly. I mean in order to gauge balance you have to use some overall metric and it doesn't get much better than this.

Here is why this is important. If individually the mechs are balanced, then something else is the issue. You have to identify that in order to fix it.

Just because the IS is always losing to the Clans doesn't mean the Clans are OP. I mean I am ex-military and one of the first things they will tell you that is essential for victory is that your Army has to BELIEVE they are going to win. If they don't believe they are going to win, they will likely lose even if they have superior weapons and equipment. IS players however are so convinced that their mechs are worse, that in a 1 vs 1 match up, they are going to lose 9 times out of 10, that there is no way they can win and so they lose. What is worse is not one IS player wants to admit that this is obviously a factor in why the matches are lopsided.

Anyway, I just hope PGI looks at this tournament and realizes what is really going on and stops with the nerfs now before they truly do have an imbalance....in the other direction.

[Jeon Ji Yoon]

Viktor Drake, on 04 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Clan Lights = Under Performing vs. IS lights, by a significant margin.

Although, this may change with fast Clan lights

[Mcgral18]

Jeon Ji Yoon, on 04 October 2014 - 05:15 PM, said:

Although, this may change with fast Clan lights

Arctic Cheetah maybe, certainly not the 25 tonner.

They don't have any other 35 tonners either; but the 40 ton Viper is a 40 ton Ember. That would be a good light mech, with 8 hardwired JJs.

[Ultimax]

Xarian, on 04 October 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

You're assuming that the scoring rubric used by PGI for this tournament somehow equates into overall game balance.

• The scoring rubric rewards only selfish "lone wolf" behavior.
  
• The DWF outdamages every other assault because it carries more and better guns. The scoring rubric rewards kills and damage. Therefore, the DWF will get higher scores. It's also the slowest mech in the game (though you can make IS mechs slower if you want) which means that you're significantly easier to kill than, for example, an AS7 or a BNC. The STK, while of comparative speed, is also significantly harder to kill than a DWF due to its size and hitboxes.
  
• The KFX and ADR don't do much damage or get many kills because they don't have enough speed to stay alive, and get signifcantly less damage than a FS9 or JR7. The scoring rubric rewards kills and damage, which are things that the KFX and ADR aren't going to excel at. Therefore, the KFX and ADR get lower scores.
  
• Thankfully the game isn't exclusively about getting yourself kills and doing damage - it's about your team getting kills and doing damage.
  
• Want a better rubric? Only use W/L percentage. The KFX isn't going to do much on these damage-based scoring rubrics, but it'll do extremely well in terms of W/L due to its support toolbox.

Wait, so the "selfish lone wolf" behavior shouldn't be used to balance factions?

You mean like the really awful Clan vs. IS solo pug queue only matches?

You're saying there are drawbacks to the Dire Wolf - and that "raw damage output isn't everything?" - yet the "nerf clans" committee constantly cites the Dire Wolf?

You're saying the Clan Light mechs don't get many kills or score much damage?


I feel we are on the cusp of a revelation here.

[SpeedingBus]

Viktor Drake, on 04 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Well I was reviewing the tournament results and so far we are seeing:

Clan Lights = Under Performing vs. IS lights, by a significant margin.

Clan Mediums = Equal performance to IS mediums.

Clan Heavies = Equal performance to IS heavies.

Clan Assaults = Over-performing slightly.


So all in all pretty balanced especially when you consider what we have upcoming which is the fast Clan light to fill the missing gap in Clan light mech performance, and the King Crab which will give the IS a mech capable of going head-to-head against the Dire Wolf.

Of course I would like to point out, this is BEFORE the Clan XL nerf by the way. If performance is balanced now, then when they nerf the Clan XLs....well guess we are going to have some very crappy preforming Clan mechs aren't we.

Guess they will have to rebuff the clan weapons when the XL fix goes in if they want them to remain competitive.

Just something for everyone to think about.

Cherry picking your data isn't proving ANYTHING.

[Xarian]

Viktor Drake, on 04 October 2014 - 04:52 PM, said:

My point exactly. I mean in order to gauge balance you have to use some overall metric and it doesn't get much better than this.

Here is why this is important. If individually the mechs are balanced, then something else is the issue. You have to identify that in order to fix it.

You're absolutely correct - as long as the scoring rubric reflects the goals of the target. IS and Clan heavies both have the same role - doing damage and getting kills. Therefore the rubric is great for both IS and Clan heavies, and shows that the maximum capability of whatever IS heavy is being used is equivalent to the maximum capability of the TBR (bear in mind that maximum and average are not the same here, since only the best 10 matches are being used).

The rubric is not accurate for utility mechs, especially ECM shepherds or NARCers (stealing term from that 3L thread - it's a good one).

Ultimatum X, on 04 October 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Wait, so the "selfish lone wolf" behavior shouldn't be used to balance factions?

You mean like the really awful Clan vs. IS solo pug queue only matches?

You're saying there are drawbacks to the Dire Wolf - and that "raw damage output isn't everything?" - yet the "nerf clans" committee constantly cites the Dire Wolf?

You're saying the Clan Light mechs don't get many kills or score much damage?


I feel we are on the cusp of a revelation here.

Not sure of the tone, but yes, you just restated what I said and threw in a few logical conclusions from previous tests. If I'm correct about what you're saying, then yeah I agree with you.

Also, side note, I think the KFX is in a good place with its utility role, but the Adder is supposed to be a damage support so I kinda wish it had a functional role there.

Edited by Xarian, 04 October 2014 - 05:51 PM.

[Ultimax]

Xarian, on 04 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Not sure of the tone, but yes, you just restated what I said and threw in a few logical conclusions from previous tests. If I'm correct about what you're saying, then yeah I agree with you.

Also, side note, I think the KFX is in a good place with its utility role, but the Adder is supposed to be a damage support so I kinda wish it had a functional role there.

The tone is mocking the people who took the solo queue results as if it were the unfiltered word of their creator.

So yeah, you got the gist of it.

[Greenjulius]

I honestly think the scores speak for themselves. Direwhales are too powerful, clan lights too weak. Arguing that "they have better weapons and damage, but that isn't everything" ignores one of the most important parts of the game, the primary measurement of mech effectiveness.

Clan lights may have had a chance before the Clan energy weapon nerf, as I could get 800-900 damage rounds in my kitfox with 2xERML/1xLPL and a lucky round. Now I struggle to get 700 even with the best of rounds. The heat is too much. The range nerf hurt them too, but the heat is the primary nerf that needs to go with Clan lights. Perhaps a perk for the lights is in order?

I bet you the reason IS mediums are about on par with Clan mediums is all Shadowhawk. There is no way another medium could match clan mechs other than the Shadow Hawk. I'm currently at number 13 in mediums, and the only reason I can do well despite my above average skill is because that mech has ninja hitboxes.

Heavies are a wash, but I'm surprised Timber Wolves didn't boost the difference higher. I'd be curious to hear what the top players are using in each category.

Edited by Greenjulius, 04 October 2014 - 06:15 PM.

[Tezcatli]

In a mix queue during a challenge that caters toward a certain point system. It does show the best pilots with builds that optimize getting a higher score can match their Clan equivalent.

But in IS versus Clan without a challenge going on. It might be different. So this isn't conclusive. And the only nerf their getting is the engine side torso.

[Bigbacon]

only round I saw was the first one and that 3 twolf, 2 crows, and nova dominated hardcore.

[Cranial Enigma]

Cute fox fighting!

[Angel of Annihilation]

SpeedingBus, on 04 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

Cherry picking your data isn't proving ANYTHING.

What did I cherry pick.

Clan lights aren't preforming as good as IS lights.
Clan mediums are pretty equal to IS medium
Clan Heavies are pretty equal to IS heavies
Clan Assaults are doing slightly better than IS Assaults.

Not much to cherry pick there, all you have to do is look at the leaderboard.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 04 October 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

What did I cherry pick.

Clan lights aren't preforming as good as IS lights.
Clan mediums are pretty equal to IS medium
Clan Heavies are pretty equal to IS heavies
Clan Assaults are doing slightly better than IS Assaults.

Not much to cherry pick there, all you have to do is look at the leaderboard.

I am glad that the Clan mechs in general have been toned down compared to the last similar tournament, but individual pilot's performance still does not give the full picture.
IMO, a Clan vs IS group tournament is the only way to make sure.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 October 2014 - 06:46 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tezcatli, on 04 October 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

And the only nerf their getting is the engine side torso.

This is my point exactly. That is going to be a rather large nerf to the effectiveness of clan mechs. Now honestly I don't really mind equalizing the playing field a bit for IS mechs in terms of XLs, largely because I own about 3 times as many IS mechs as I do Clan mechs, but if Clan performance is now mostly on par with IS performance, then PGI is going to need to re-evaluation some of the recent weapons nerfs to keep them on par after the XL changes. Honestly I wouldn't mind that at all, Clan weapons are way to fricken hot now.