79 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

I am trying to decide if I want to buy a pack or just wait and Ala Carte my Hellbringer and to do that I need to evaluate what mechs I get in the pack.

Looking at the Koshi, it doesn't really seem like it is going to be all that great. First it is only 25 tons which isn't a weight most people associate with good. Second, and the reason for this topic, is that I just don't know if it is fast enough for a 25 ton mech.

Stock it only runs 113.4 kph. That isn't much more than a mastered Kit Fox which most people seem to think is too slow. Even with Speed Tweak, it is only hitting 124.7 kph which doesn't seem like it is going to be enough for such a lightly armored mech.

Now it does have an ECM option, but to mount it you give up half your potential firepower, leaving you very lightly armed. Then when you consider that a ECM Kitfox is only 15 kph slower and mounts significantly more armor and firepower, why would you even consider mounting ECM on a Koshi.

That being the case, the only thing that seems to look good to me is a Quad C-ER ML build while skipping the ECM. This would give you roughly the same firepower as a 6 ML Firestarter. However you would have alot less armor and be roughly 20-30 kph slower and might be less agile due to engine size. However it would have a few unique advantages.

• 400m optimal range vs 270m optimal range.
  
• No XL engine vulnerability.
  
• Should be smaller than the Firestarter.

So the questions is, do you think think the greater range, lack of XL vulnerability and size advantage will at least make it equal to a Firestarter that has around 50 more armor total and runs between 20-30 kph faster?

Let me know your thoughts.

[mongo2006]

I still think they'll be too slow, it will never be effective behind enemy lines compared to (IS) lights. It will spend most of it's time running for it's life.

[AssaultPig]

short answer: no. With speed tweak it's going to be as slow as a fast IS light without speed tweak. Try using one of those as a 'brawler' and let me know how that goes. Its best build is probably going to be the clan equivalent of a raven 3L: ECM and two ERLLas. Kit fox, but a bit faster. We'll see what it looks like in terms of hitboxes I guess, but most of the clan mechs so far have not been great in that regard.

Now, the ice ferret? Basically as fast as an IS light (142 and change with tweak) with the armor/firepower of a 45 ton medium? Gimme some of that

Edited by AssaultPig, 20 September 2014 - 06:09 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

mongo2006, on 20 September 2014 - 05:55 PM, said:

I still think they'll be too slow, it will never be effective behind enemy lines compared to (IS) lights. It will spend most of it's time running for it's life.

Well I am not so sure that being behind enemy lines is actually always the most effective place for a light mech to be anyway to be honest. Many times just working the flanks and/or popping up unexpectedly even while staying close to your team can result in big contributions to the team.

What I am more concerned about it those times when you need speed to get the hell out of dodge or getting run down by Firestarters and Jenners which mount at least as much firepower while mounting more armor and moving significantly faster.

But like I said, you to have advantages. 400m range vs 270m is significant. Also no XL vulnerability means your going to be somewhat more durable (though your stilll going to be more vulnerable to legging). These factors give me pause in calling the Koshi DOA because they might just make a world of difference.

[Angel of Annihilation]

AssaultPig, on 20 September 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

short answer: no. With speed tweak it's going to be as slow as a fast IS light without speed tweak. Try using one of those as a 'brawler' and let me know how that goes. Its best build is probably going to be the clan equivalent of a raven 3L: ECM and two ERLLas. Kit fox, but a bit faster. We'll see what it looks like in terms of hitboxes I guess, but most of the clan mechs so far have not been great in that regard.

Now, the ice ferret? Basically as fast as an IS light (142 and change with tweak) with the armor/firepower of a 45 ton medium? Gimme some of that

Mist Lynx doesn't have the tonnage for that build unfortunately. Only 7.5 tons available. 2 C-ER LL and ECM is 9 tons. Of course this is yet another reason why I have my doubts.

As far as the Ice Ferret, I can see that one going either way. It does have the speed and you will be able to mount significant armor but I it really doesn't have the firepower. 9.5 tons of pod space and limited hard point options see to that. Best build I have come up with for the Ice Ferret Prime is:

Max Armor
3 C-ER ML (2LA, 1 RA)
1 LRM10 (1 LT)
12 DHS

Of course this requires pod swapping and I just roughed it out but aside from maybe changing the LRM for an SRM6 and/or a few other odds and ends I think this would be one of the better builds. Decent firepower, but really not more than a well built Firestarter can put out and it will be in a much larger chassis.

[Ultimax]

4 CERMLAS sounds great, until you realize that you only get 7 Engine DHS at true 2.0.

[Mcgral18]

6.5 tons when you max the armour, Active Probe that is permanently stuck, 6 JJs which might come in handy.

No torso mounted weapons, only in the arms. ECM arm doesn't have any weapons, but the opposite arm can have 2M and 1E.


It won't be good. It might compare to the Commando's, and maybe even some Lolcusts. 25 tons isn't the ideal tonnage anyhow.

Arctic Cheetah on the other hand, that would have been viable. In timeline, torso mounted ECM along with a E hardpoint. 8 tons of pod space with maxed armour.

Prime variant is ECM, 2M, 4E hardpoints, 2E torso mounted. It's a 30 tonner that would actually be fearsome, moving at 130/142. Has the same 6 hardwired JJs as the Koshi.


It would be a good Clan light, but we can't have one of those.

Edited by Mcgral18, 20 September 2014 - 07:06 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Why not ECM 2 Cermlas. And a Tcomp too give it the range. Even with a Mk2 you have 800M of hitting distance.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 20 September 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

6.5 tons when you max the armour, Active Probe that is permanently stuck, 6 JJs which might come in handy.

No torso mounted weapons, only in the arms. ECM doesn't have an weapons, but the opposite arm can have 2M and 1E.


It won't be good. It might compare to the Commando's, and maybe even some Lolcusts. 25 tons isn't the ideal tonnage anyhow.

Arctic Cheetah on the other hand, that would have been viable. In timeline, torso mounted ECM along with a E hardpoint. 8 tons of pod space with maxed armour.

Prime variant is ECM, 2M, 4E hardpoints, 2E torso mounted. It's a 30 tonner that would actually be fearsome, moving at 130/142.


It would be a good Clan light, but we can't have one of those.

The Arctic Cheater would have pretty much roflstomped any other light mech known to mankind -- IS and Clan alive -- into the ground. It would be like comparing the Mad Cat to a Dragon, or perhaps even slightly more drastic than that.

[Corbenik]

I would be sad if it is bigger than a firestarter and the size of a Kitfox .

[Carrioncrows]

They are very commando-ish.

Which isn't a bad thing.

Pre-clans one of my best builds was a Commando-A, I used a STD 150 engine (WHAT? u say?) and I had 2 medium lasers and 2 SRM6's.

It did a fair amount of damage. 300-400 easily and even had a few games push the 600. I can still take it out and push those numbers, it's just a little harder these days with so many clans populating the pugs.

I never understood the whole "Speed" is must argument. After 2.5 years of play, speed is just something you adjust for when you pull the trigger on all these hitscan weapons.

You don't need to go fast. You just need to go fast enough. And the Koshi goes plenty fast enough. Throw in jumpjets for added benefit.

Now I don't think the koshi will be too hurt having ECM. And until ECM changes it is still mucho mondo.

But even with ECM you are only giving up 1 missile or 2 energy to have it.

You still have access to
1 Missile, 2 Ballistic
2 Energy
1 Energy, 2 Ballistic.

That's pure commando hardpoints for the most part.

I think with all the lightweight clan weapons the koshi is going to do just fine.

[FupDup]

Carrioncrows, on 20 September 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

They are very commando-ish.

Which isn't a bad thing.

Pre-clans one of my best builds was a Commando-A, I used a STD 150 engine (WHAT? u say?) and I had 2 medium lasers and 2 SRM6's.

It did a fair amount of damage. 300-400 easily and even had a few games push the 600. I can still take it out and push those numbers, it's just a little harder these days with so many clans populating the pugs.

I never understood the whole "Speed" is must argument. After 2.5 years of play, speed is just something you adjust for when you pull the trigger on all these hitscan weapons.

You don't need to go fast. You just need to go fast enough. And the Koshi goes plenty fast enough. Throw in jumpjets for added benefit.

Now I don't think the koshi will be too hurt having ECM. And until ECM changes it is still mucho mondo.

But even with ECM you are only giving up 1 missile or 2 energy to have it.

You still have access to
1 Missile, 2 Ballistic
2 Energy
1 Energy, 2 Ballistic.

That's pure commando hardpoints for the most part.

I think with all the lightweight clan weapons the koshi is going to do just fine.

Speed is used as a method of compensating for having less armor than bigger mechs. It requires more skill to land an alpha strike on a fast target than it does against a slow target, thereby making the faster one survive longer on average (assuming equal armor and hitboxes). The faster one can also get to cover that much faster, and has a bit better agility due to MWO basing agility off of top speed. And they get more 2.0 Trudubs™ in their engine, at least until you reach the 250+ engine ratings. More critical slots due to more engine dubs (until you reach 250+ engines) also might open up the use of Ferro Fibrous on some loadouts, thereby making them more optimally constructed (due to "bonus" tonnage) than the smaller engined models.

Another thing about it is being able to "outrun anything you can't outgun." Basically, if you encounter an enemy mech that has more armor than you, more firepower than you, AND has equal/better speed than you, you're gonna have a bad time. You can't tank him, you can't out-damage him, and you can't even scurry away. He's gonna stomp your face in barring a significant skill disparity and/or greater numbers.

As a specific example, I have some Shadow Hawk 2K and Griffin Sparky builds that go around 102-105 kph (3 ERLL boat and 2 LL + 4 ML, respectively), which almost reaches your Commando's speed...but they have drastically more armor and firepower than your Commie. If we were to duel, you'd be at a pretty severe disadvantage.

Edited by FupDup, 20 September 2014 - 07:03 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Carrioncrows, on 20 September 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

They are very commando-ish.

Which isn't a bad thing.

Pre-clans one of my best builds was a Commando-A, I used a STD 150 engine (WHAT? u say?) and I had 2 medium lasers and 2 SRM6's.

It did a fair amount of damage. 300-400 easily and even had a few games push the 600. I can still take it out and push those numbers, it's just a little harder these days with so many clans populating the pugs.

I never understood the whole "Speed" is must argument. After 2.5 years of play, speed is just something you adjust for when you pull the trigger on all these hitscan weapons.

You don't need to go fast. You just need to go fast enough. And the Koshi goes plenty fast enough. Throw in jumpjets for added benefit.

Now I don't think the koshi will be too hurt having ECM. And until ECM changes it is still mucho mondo.

But even with ECM you are only giving up 1 missile or 2 energy to have it.

You still have access to
1 Missile, 2 Ballistic
2 Energy
1 Energy, 2 Ballistic.

That's pure commando hardpoints for the most part.

I think with all the lightweight clan weapons the koshi is going to do just fine.

I do have a tendency to agree on your assessment of speed. Earlier tonight I took out my Kit Fox and manged 5 kills and almost 600 damage at the piddly speed of 106.7 kph. However, the Kit Fox is really more like a medium as far as firepower and is pretty beefy as far as armor goes as well at least for being a light that is.

[Monkey Lover]

A stock jenner without speed tweak will die I hate to be 10kph slower

[Koniving]

Viktor Drake, on 20 September 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

Stock it only runs 113.4 kph. That isn't much more than a mastered Kit Fox which most people seem to think is too slow. Even with Speed Tweak, it is only hitting 124.7 kph which doesn't seem like it is going to be enough for such a lightly armored mech.

Its stock speed is supposed to be 118.8 kph.
Unless this is another mech where PGI has nerfed the stock speeds...

It is. Wow. Well no wonder why it sucks to be a Commando. Speed nerfs!

(Much like Nova, Summoner and Timber Wolf, all supposed to be 86 kph).

Good news is the medium (which can only carry 3 more tons of weapons after full armor) has a whopping 129.6 kph for a stock speed.

Edited by Koniving, 20 September 2014 - 07:05 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 20 September 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Why not ECM 2 Cermlas. And a Tcomp too give it the range. Even with a Mk2 you have 800M of hitting distance.

Well you can run the same thing with an extra CERMLAS or a CERLLAS, maybe some machine guns and also have ECM, run at 106kph with more armor.

Oh yeah and 3x AMS to support.


That's right we are now comparing things to the Kit Fox with the Kit Fox looking better.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 September 2014 - 07:07 PM.

[FupDup]

Koniving, on 20 September 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Its stock speed is supposed to be 118.8 kph.
Unless this is another mech where PGI has nerfed the stock speeds...

It is. Wow. Well no wonder why it sucks to be a Commando. Speed nerfs!

(Much like Nova, Summoner and Timber Wolf, all supposed to be 86 kph).

It's a rounding thing. TT rounds the speeds up because they hate decimals for the most part. You can't really move half a hex in a board game... MWO is real-time and does not hate decimals, and thus their speeds are lowered.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 20 September 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

The Arctic Cheater would have pretty much roflstomped any other light mech known to mankind -- IS and Clan alive -- into the ground. It would be like comparing the Mad Cat to a Dragon, or perhaps even slightly more drastic than that.

Wouldn't it be amazing?


I can dream one day the Clams would have 4 viable mechs, one for each weight category.

Half way there, but I don't expect to get much further with this current mech back. Another good Heavy, mediocre Med, bad light, and a Assault with the tonnage of a light heavy, or a heavy medium. Less than that, really, but the Clan tech does offset that slightly.

[FupDup]

Mcgral18, on 20 September 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

Wouldn't it be amazing?


I can dream one day the Clams would have 4 viable mechs, one for each weight category.

Half way there, but I don't expect to get much further with this current mech back. Another good Heavy, mediocre Med, bad light, and a Assault with the tonnage of a light heavy, or a heavy medium. Less than that, really, but the Clan tech does offset that slightly.

The Arctic Cheater would certainly be viable, but in that case it might be a tad bit too viable... It's just another one of those "perfect storm" mechs that have the exact right combination of traits. Endo, FF, JJs, good hardpoints, decent tonnage, and would probably have at least average hitboxes.

[Koniving]

FupDup, on 20 September 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

It's a rounding thing. TT rounds the speeds up because they hate decimals for the most part. You can't really move half a hex in a board game... MWO is real-time and does not hate decimals, and thus their speeds are lowered.

It mostly seems to hurt certain weight classes of mechs more than others.

The rounding tidbit wouldn't be an issue with canon engine limits (and considering how limited customization is supposed to be, it'd hard to believe they have engines with intervals of '5' ratings for every mech... when in BT a 300 engine for a 35 ton mech couldn't fit on a 50 ton mech or a 100 ton mech). >.>; But meh.

Just sucks to be 25 tons, 60 tons, 50 tons, 75 tons or 70 tons.

On a side note: Dire Wolf lost and Atlas both lost quite a bit of speed with this system too. 54 kph for a 300 engine, but they only get 48.8. 64.8 for a 400 engine, which they get just fine.