17 replies to this topic

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I thought I'd share an idea about how the Mech and Pilot Trees could be improved to allow for more customization of our mechs and hopefully make it easier to edit elements that effect mech performance in-game, and to improve game balance as the game continues to evolve.

So the idea is, the Skills tab will remain the area where Players can unlock Modules and Module Slots for our mechs with XP and GXP. Then in the Modules tab in the Loadout area, we can then decide what boosts we will actually mount on our mechs.

This image below shows one example of how each mech in our Mechlab could have their Profile presented to the Player, showing a different combination of available Slots for different Mechs. This way, depending on what Module is chosen, the affected Attributes will change in the Display.



This section shows possible items that could be available to slot in the Pilot Tree. This could be made up as once something is slotted, you would need to pay a fair retraining fee to make any changes.

Spoiler

Pilot Proficiency:
Cool Boost
Cool Run
Heat Containment
Hill Climb
Improved Gyro
Quick Ignition
Speed Tweak
Anchor Turn
Arm Reflex
Hard Break
Kinetic Burst
Twist Speed
Twist X
Sensor Range
Shock Absorbance
Speed Retention
Target Info Gathering

Modules could be set as swappable or have a fair installation fee to add and remove items here.

Spoiler

Modules:
Seismic Sensor
Equipment Modifiers (AMS, NARC, etc.)
Weapon Modifiers
Air Strike Accuracy
Artillery Accuracy
Capture Accelerator
UAV Upgrade
360 Target Retention
Multi-Targeting
Target Decay
Radar Deprivation
Advanced Zoom
NIght Vision
Thermal Vision

Consumables could be set as freely swappable since they have a cost once used in a match. The only question is how UI 2.0 might be setup to maintain an available stock of consumables between matches and so on.

Spoiler

Consumables:
Arrow IV Strike
Long Tom Strike
Sniper Strike
Thumper Strike
Cool Shot
Radar Decoy
Satellite Sweep
UAV

So if we have a Warhawk C with eight slots unlocked, it could have this kind of Module loadout, for example:

Spoiler

Pilot Proficiency:
Target Info Gathering
Sensor Range

Modules:
Seismic Sensor
NIght Vision
UAC/10 Cooldown
ER/ML Range

Consumables:
Artillery Strike
UAV

Such a system could allow for equipment such as BAP, TAG and the Command Console to add additional slots for Modules so that there is further incentive to taking on such equipment,

And/or even consider having equipment place restrictions on what Modules can be taken.

For example, BAP would be needed to provide additional Sensor adjustments or Launching UAVs, TAG would be needed for calling Strikes. MASC would prevent Speed Tweak from being available, Coolant Pods would be needed to use Cool Shots and so on.


Depending on how progress continues with the PTS testing and the Rebalancing, and if this idea can work, then there should be little problem in scaling up whatever is necessary to keeping this sort of customization challenging and rewarding; such as increasing the costs for unlocking the various elements in the Skills tab, increasing the cost of unlocking slots, and/or adding costs to swapping between items and so on.



This spoiler tag has older pics with older ideas for having the efficiencies, modules and consumables.

Spoiler

So if we have a Highlander 733C with all of the slots unlocked it could have this kind of a loadout, for example:

Spoiler

Pilot Tree:
Cool Run
Heat Containment
Target Info Gathering
Sensor Range
Kinetic Boost
Twist X

Modules:
Seismic Sensor
Advanced Zoom
Artillery Accuracy
UAV Upgrade

Consumables:
Artillery Strike
UAV

Edit: Cleaning up Post
Updated Image

Edited by Praetor Knight, 17 September 2015 - 09:19 AM.

[Durant Carlyle]

I'm all for the modular 'Mech Efficiency tree. However, I'd limit it more.

Have four gauges:
Two rated as Basic.
One rated as Elite.
One rated as Master.

The gauges fill up as you earn XP in the variant.
The efficiencies are rated as "Basic," "Elite," and "Master," with progressively better bonuses.
Total XP to Master a variant remains the same.

You get to the end of the first Basic gauge (10,750 XP), you earn a slot to put a Basic Efficiency in.
You get to the end of the second Basic gauge (another 10,750 XP), you earn a slot to put a second Basic Efficiency in.
You get to the end of the Elite gauge (another 21,500 XP), you earn a slot to put an Elite Efficiency in.
You get to the end of the Master gauge (another 21,500 XP), you earn a slot to put a Master Efficiency in.

Instead of every 'Mech getting exactly the same bonuses, this system makes the player choose between them. The choices wouldn't be permanent. They'd have to come up with some more worthwhile Efficiencies though.

You could have a 'Mech that accelerates/decelerates faster, or torso-twists farther/faster, or has better vertical torso movement, or turns faster, or has higher heat capacity and dissipation ... but you can't have it all at once like we do now. Different builds could perform differently on the battlefield based on your choices.

I would keep modules on a separate system. Maybe as a Module Tree.

I would also add a real Pilot Tree, where there are different skills (like the original idea the devs had way back when) that you unlock with Pilot Points. As with the revised 'Mech Efficiencies, there are more skills than you can have slotted. However, the Pilot Skills would be permanent. Re-spec would cost MC.

The Pilot Tree might include small bonuses to such things as Weapon Category (Ballistic/Energy/Missile) Damage, Weapon Category (Ballistic/Energy/Missile) Cooldown, Laser Beam Duration, (ER)PPC "Projectile" Speed, Gauss Projectile Speed, AC Projectile Speed, Missile Flight Speed, Missile Guidance Strength, Sensor Range, ECM Resistance, ECM Range, BAP Range, etc.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I can see reducing the number of Efficiencies we can mount on a mech, but I'm not sure if all modules would need a separate tree since some of them are also boosts such as to sensor range or movement over rough terrain (Hill Climb).

But separating Consumables could seem work, along with some equipment modules that give specific bonuses like Advanced Zoom and Seismic.

And I've been trying to catch up on the lore with how a Mechwarrior interacts and interfaces with the Mech. To me, I had the impression that there is some overlap with many of the mech efficiencies and what could be Pilot related efficiencies with how the Neurohelmets are supposed to work with the Mechwarrior's sense of balance and I guess agility for how responsive the mech is to the mechwarrior in Combat. The helmets also need to be calibrated with the individual Mechwarrior which could be expressed in MWO as having tiers with the various efficiencies at least.

The devs also have to find the happy medium between how long it takes to get the efficiencies / modules / consumables, and what factors are involved in leveling up such a system, such as number of slots and so on.

I also wouldn't mind exploring a more graduated progression with efficiencies that can be mounted as we see in RPGs after getting slots unlocked to mount them.

As a possible example Twist X. Currently starts at 10%, then doubles to 20% with Elites unlocked. Could use Tiers maybe like this:

• Tier 1 - 2.5% increased twist range | Cost: 500 XP
  
• Tier 2 - 5.0% increased twist range | Cost: 1000 XP
  
• Tier 3 - 7.5% increased twist range | Cost: 500 GXP
  
• Tier 4 - 10.0% increased twist range | Cost: 10,000 C-Bills
  
• Tier 5 - 15.0% increased twist range | Cost: 1,000,000 C-Bills
  
• Tier 6 - 20.0% increased twist range | Cost: 1,500,000 C-Bills

The devs, were looking at something like that, and it seems that some of the ideas have evolved with some of the modules we have, and some of the consumables, but we haven't seen any big progress updates lately.



I was also thinking after considering how Gauges could be used, what if another method could be to setup types of Efficiencies and modules, then have limits within those categories? So not only have fewer slots, but also fewer possible combos for how those slots get used. For example:

• Mech Efficiency - like Cool Run or Hill Climb | allow two max from these
  
• Neurohelmet Interface Tuning - Arm Reflex, Twist Speed | allow two from these
  
• Sensor Additions - like Seismic, maybe Target Info Gathering | allow one from these
  
• Support Equipment - like Capture Accelerator, UAV upgrade | allow one from these
  
• Targeting Programming - like Target Decay | allow one from these
  
• Vision Enhancements - Advanced Zoom, Thermal Vision | allow one from these
  
• Consumables (Self) - Cool Shot, UAV | allow two from these
  
• Consumables (Target) - The Strikes | allow one from these

And for anyone who hasn't seen these, here are a few links about what the devs were thinking about with Role Warfare:
http://mwomercs.com/...-3-role-warfare
http://mwomercs.com/...le-warfare-cont

[I_Dorkus]

Perhaps separate trees for each INDIVIDUAL mech in your collection. E.g., I have two Stalker 5Ms, one set up as a laser-centric mech and the other missile-centric. Making the proficiency trees TRUE trees (once you start down one path, the other path(s) are unavailable) could drastically change the experience for each mech. :-)

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Poomanchu, on 12 December 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Perhaps separate trees for each INDIVIDUAL mech in your collection. E.g., I have two Stalker 5Ms, one set up as a laser-centric mech and the other missile-centric. Making the proficiency trees TRUE trees (once you start down one path, the other path(s) are unavailable) could drastically change the experience for each mech. :-)

Having a unique set for each mech could be the way to go, depending on what UI 2.0 can handle and the direction the devs eventually go in for the Pilot Lab.

[gtyida]

maybe adding more than advanced. from basic > advanced > expert > master having more tiers but what mech skills are in there would be a question... though the improved gyro and hill climb should be passive or at least upgradable from the mechlab.....

[Mawai]

I totally agree that a better xp system is needed to keep folks interested.

My suggestion was something like the following:
Basic: choose 8 out of 32 efficiencies
Elite: choose 4 out of 16 efficiences
Master: choose 1 out of 4 efficiencies

Some of the efficiencies could be tiered if they can't come up with enough of them. e,g, torso twist 1, torso twist 2, or spead tweak 1, speed tweak 2 ...

This sort of system allows you to customize the efficiencies on each variant of every mech ... allowing you to choose efficiencies to suit the role you plan to use the mech in. It also keeps players more interested since they have more choice and decisions to make in terms of spending xp to customize their piloting efficiencies.

PGI could even turn this into a revenue stream by charging a modest amount of MC to reset your experience assignments on a specific chassis and re-assign them. If you are worried this could be considered P2W then they could charge a large chuck of GXP (10k to 15k?) to re-assign XP on a mech or have an MC charge.


There were some good suggestions along these lines during closed beta but PGI hasn't had the manpower or willpower to address this in the last 20 months. Hopefully, they will change their minds and do something about it going forward.

[Blackfire1]

Mawai, on 19 December 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

There were some good suggestions along these lines during closed beta but PGI hasn't had the manpower or willpower to address this in the last 20 months. Hopefully, they will change their minds and do something about it going forward.

I don't mean to be the downer here.... but we've been telling them what we've wanted for the last 20 months. Only a handful if things have been added.

There were 42 other games with amazing skill, passive, module systems in play. Nope.... they copied ******* world of tanks and two VERY outdated muds. Nothings going to happen.

[Kh0rn]

I have an Idea on how too improve the pilot lab for all the mechs too give them special rolls or too distinct them from others.

my first idea is if say you purchase a centurion variant that is based with long range weapons it is suppose too be a long range mech and thus restricted too only long range capable weapons where the pilot trees for that chassie would reflect that such as improved gyro's or targeting systems for missiles that futher improves its performance as a ranged unit same thing would apply if you got hold of a close range variant.

but my Main Idea is too make each mech have its own unique tree too give them some role for example replace the cool run for the awesome and give it the special heatsink it had in TT so it can be the king of energy boating allowing it too do what no other mech can do. Another example would be say remove the speed tweak from the Atlas and give it armor tweak where at the cost of that mobility now has 25% damage reduction too give the Atlas a more durable feel with out having too touch the hit boxes. And say the raven too boost all electronics so they operate better then on other mechs just a few ideas I am putting into concept. The last one would be a branch specialization system where you can follow in a line with your mech too forfill a role by following unlocks in say the brawler branch or the ranged branch etc.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Kh0rn, on 11 March 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

Spoiler

I have an Idea on how too improve the pilot lab for all the mechs too give them special rolls or too distinct them from others.

my first idea is if say you purchase a centurion variant that is based with long range weapons it is suppose too be a long range mech and thus restricted too only long range capable weapons where the pilot trees for that chassie would reflect that such as improved gyro's or targeting systems for missiles that futher improves its performance as a ranged unit same thing would apply if you got hold of a close range variant.

but my Main Idea is too make each mech have its own unique tree too give them some role for example replace the cool run for the awesome and give it the special heatsink it had in TT so it can be the king of energy boating allowing it too do what no other mech can do. Another example would be say remove the speed tweak from the Atlas and give it armor tweak where at the cost of that mobility now has 25% damage reduction too give the Atlas a more durable feel with out having too touch the hit boxes. And say the raven too boost all electronics so they operate better then on other mechs just a few ideas I am putting into concept. The last one would be a branch specialization system where you can follow in a line with your mech too forfill a role by following unlocks in say the brawler branch or the ranged branch etc.

Providing unique items for specific variants is needed, and having better defined roles for Community Warfare is something I feel that the game will need for a better feel of the Battle Tech universe.

I simply wonder if those unique items would be static on those variants or if we could choose to swap them out if the player would be willing to pay to do so (be that in MC, C-Bills, XP and/or GXP).

Edited by Praetor Shepard, 11 March 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Praetor Knight, on 01 December 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

OP

I like this suggestion. If I am running a heavy energy boat (8 ML firestarter for example) I would love to run multiples of heat containment and cool running, but that means I will miss out on some of the ones for mobility. That would be a great choice to contemplate in all honesty. I think it would add a layer of customization and personalization for each mech. I'm all for it.


honestly, PM some of the devs and staff about this.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Original Idea Here:

Spoiler

So the idea is, instead of having a preset selection of Efficiencies to unlock and instead of putting work to make The Mech Trees unique for different mechs, what if instead we can unlock modular slots that we can then mix and match different module efficiencies?

This can be thought of as the Pilot focusing on certain areas as they make use of their mech.




So the existing Efficiencies will be converted to modules that can then be slotted into our mechs.

The first eight Basic slots would fit passive modules only.

The four Elite could be a mix of passive modules and Consumables.

The Master Slot can have unique effects for certain mechs or simply be another available slot.

Here is a table with examples of what could be available:

Spoiler

So looking at a Highlander 733C in the picture, with all slots unlocked. It could be setup as follows:

Basic:

• Adv. Cool Run
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Heat Containment
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Twist Speed
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Improved Gyro
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Advanced Zoom
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Thermal Vision
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Seismic Sensor
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Anchor Turn

Elite:

• Cool Shot
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Cool Boost
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Air Strike
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Artillery

Master:

• Target Info Gathering

So depending on the Highlander's weapons, engine and equipment, the mech would be less agile compared to a currently Mastered 733C, since the player would have to make some choices as to what to carry.












If any modules are seen to be too good they could be restricted as end-game items, expensive and even limited by certain restrictions as necessary, such as limiting Speed Tweak and the existing limits with Cool Shots.



So that's the basic idea, let me know what you think.

Spoiler

And with Speed Tweak limited for example, there could be changes made to mechs to increase their Engine Ratings as another balancing measure between speed and firepower, if deemed necessary as the game evolves, here are some tables with changes to Engine Ratings and a couple ideas for some unique Master Slot options the devs could explore.

Lights:

Spoiler

Mediums:

Spoiler

Heavies:

Spoiler

Assaults:

Spoiler

Will be updating Idea.

[IraqiWalker]

Praetor Knight, on 21 July 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

Original Idea Here:

Spoiler

So the idea is, instead of having a preset selection of Efficiencies to unlock and instead of putting work to make The Mech Trees unique for different mechs, what if instead we can unlock modular slots that we can then mix and match different module efficiencies?

This can be thought of as the Pilot focusing on certain areas as they make use of their mech.




So the existing Efficiencies will be converted to modules that can then be slotted into our mechs.

The first eight Basic slots would fit passive modules only.

The four Elite could be a mix of passive modules and Consumables.

The Master Slot can have unique effects for certain mechs or simply be another available slot.

Here is a table with examples of what could be available:

Spoiler

So looking at a Highlander 733C in the picture, with all slots unlocked. It could be setup as follows:

Basic:

• Adv. Cool Run
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Heat Containment
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Twist Speed
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Improved Gyro
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Advanced Zoom
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Thermal Vision
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Seismic Sensor
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Adv. Anchor Turn

Elite:

• Cool Shot
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Cool Boost
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Air Strike
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Artillery

Master:

• Target Info Gathering

So depending on the Highlander's weapons, engine and equipment, the mech would be less agile compared to a currently Mastered 733C, since the player would have to make some choices as to what to carry.














If any modules are seen to be too good they could be restricted as end-game items, expensive and even limited by certain restrictions as necessary, such as limiting Speed Tweak and the existing limits with Cool Shots.



So that's the basic idea, let me know what you think.

Spoiler

And with Speed Tweak limited for example, there could be changes made to mechs to increase their Engine Ratings as another balancing measure between speed and firepower, if deemed necessary as the game evolves, here are some tables with changes to Engine Ratings and a couple ideas for some unique Master Slot options the devs could explore.

Lights:

Spoiler

Mediums:

Spoiler

Heavies:

Spoiler

Assaults:

Spoiler

Will be updating Idea.

How about making the Master slot give a buff to the module in it? For example giving it a 10% performance boost. That would show some real mastery of a mech.

EDIT: and make mastering a mech worth it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 July 2014 - 05:34 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

IraqiWalker, on 21 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

.

If it's gonna be as we've learned about recently, I'd be concerned about possible combos in the future that could be hard to handle, such being able to stick a Cool Shot 18 or a Rank 2 Cool Shot 9 in there with a 10% boost even as a Consumable.

So, it might be better to implement mastery boosts as quirks to specific mechs once all slots are unlocked (or even a gradual system).

So for example, if someone grinds to unlock all of the slots for an AWS-8Q, then there could be quirk bonus that allows for Heat Scale Penalties to apply beyond three PPCs instead of the current two.

My thinking is that this way stock loadouts can get an additional boosts, without having too many potential situations that could come up, that can get unbalanced by a 10% boost in an open system.

For example, I can almost imagine a 3-PPC AWS-8Q tear it up with a 300 Standard, and at least 18 DHS with a setup like this, going with the updated idea in the OP:

Pilot Tree
Cool Boost
Cool Run
Heat Containment
Target Info Gathering
Twist Speed
Twist X

Modules
Seismic Sensor
Advanced Zoom
NIght Vision
Thermal Vision

Consumables
Cool Shot 6
Cool Shot 9

[IraqiWalker]

Praetor Knight, on 21 July 2014 - 06:09 PM, said:

If it's gonna be as we've learned about recently, I'd be concerned about possible combos in the future that could be hard to handle, such being able to stick a Cool Shot 18 or a Rank 2 Cool Shot 9 in there with a 10% boost even as a Consumable.

So, it might be better to implement mastery boosts as quirks to specific mechs once all slots are unlocked (or even a gradual system).

So for example, if someone grinds to unlock all of the slots for an AWS-8Q, then there could be quirk bonus that allows for Heat Scale Penalties to apply beyond three PPCs instead of the current two.

My thinking is that this way stock loadouts can get an additional boosts, without having too many potential situations that could come up, that can get unbalanced by a 10% boost in an open system.

For example, I can almost imagine a 3-PPC AWS-8Q tear it up with a 300 Standard, and at least 18 DHS with a setup like this, going with the updated idea in the OP:

Pilot Tree
Cool Boost
Cool Run
Heat Containment
Target Info Gathering
Twist Speed
Twist X

Modules
Seismic Sensor
Advanced Zoom
NIght Vision
Thermal Vision

Consumables
Cool Shot 6
Cool Shot 9

It could be possible to lock the master slot to only mechanical modules, such as anchor turn, or improved gyros. Things that improve how the mech moves and handles.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Yeah, that certainly can work too.

[Undercover Brother]

As much as I would like to distance MWO from platform FPSs like COD, I would wholeheartedly support this format. Honestly, it would end the NERF wars overnight. Mechs like the Awesome would be viable all over again for those who love that chassis, and players could further customize their loadouts to fit their play styles instead of forcing thier play style into the required boating or meta formats. On top of everything else, true team play and role warfare would come into play. How nice would it be if, because of everyone on a PUG match DIDN'T show up, boating nothing but LRMs, and actually had a viable mix of loadouts that gave them a CHANCE against a 12 - man team? No more PUGstomp matches!

[phalanx]

We know that the Pilot Tree is going to be changed soon.

I think the solution is:

1) Convert the existing Pilot Tree items(Heat Containment,Speed Tweak,etc.) into Mech Modules under the new model.

2) A redesign of the Pilot Tree:

a) Pilot XP Dependent on Skill Level

XP would then be spent to "buy" Skills from a Tree with branches based on certain Skills.

Note:The problem we have here is first to make skills worthwhile. The second is to ensure that experienced players cant just max out all skills to become ubermechwarriors. Another is to provide an advantage to Clanners, but not to the detriment of IS players.