53 replies to this topic

[Tastian]

I'm starting a new topic to address Clan mechs specifically. This is similar to the other thread I made dealing with the Stalker, Jager, and other IS mechs. But now we have several highly problematic Clan mechs. Let's take a stab at it:

First off, here's the Weapon Classes:

Energy:
[CLASS 1]: Small Pulse, ERSmall, Flamer, Tag
[CLASS 2]: CLASS 1 + Medium Pulse, ERMed
[CLASS 3]: CLASS 2 + ERLarge, LargePulse
[CLASS 4]: CLASS 3 + ERPPC

Missile:
[CLASS 1] SRM2, LRM5, Streak SRM2, SRM4, SRM2wArt
[CLASS 2] CLASS 1 + SRM4wArt, Streak SRM4, SRM6, LRM5wArt, LRM10
[CLASS 3] CLASS 2 + SRM6wArt, Streak SRM6, LRM10wArt, LRM15
[CLASS 4] CLASS 3 + LRM15wArt, LRM20, LRM20wArt

Ballistic:
[CLASS 1] MG, LB2X, UAC2
[CLASS 2] CLASS 1 + UAC5, LB5X
[CLASS 3] CLASS 2 + UAC10, LB10x
[CLASS 4] CLASS 3 + Gauss, LB20x, UAC20


Let's take a look at the Dire Wolf.

Problem builds:
2 ERPPC, 2 Gauss
6 UAC5


**Dire Wolf Prime**
RA/LA
2x [Class 2] energy
2x [Class 3] energy
1x [Class 2] ballistic

LT
1x [Class 4] missile



**Dire Wolf A**
RA
3x [Class 3] energy

LA
1x [Class 4] ballistic

LT
2x [Class 3] missile



**Dire Wolf B**
RA
1x [Class 3] ballistic

LA
2x [Class 4] energy
2x [Class 2] energy

CT
1x [Class 1] energy

RT/LT
1x [Class 1] ballistic
1x [Class 2] ballistic



Allows:
4 x ER Large
8 x ER Med

Disallows:
4 x ERPPC
2 x Gauss, 2 x ERPPC
6 x UAC5
2 x UAC20



[EDIT] Hardpoint limitations idea is by no means new. I found this poll by searching the forums. People seem to like the idea over ghost heat 4 to 1 http://mwomercs.com/...e__show__st__80

Edited by Tastian, 07 October 2014 - 07:20 AM.

[Tastian]

The other 3 highly problematic builds are:

**Nova Prime**
RA/LA
6x [Class 2] energy

*The only way to maintain this is to add a quirk. Something like: "Can fire up to 6 energy at a time". Like a forced 1.5 second wait before firing the second volley. But consider that 12x6 heat = 72 heat.


**MadDog A**
RA
1x [Class 4] energy

LA
1x [Class 2] ballistic

RT/LT
3x [Class 2] missile


* Yes, you can have 6x SRM6s or 6x SRM4wArt. But you couldn't carry 6xSRM6wArt or 6xStreak SRM6.



**Warhawk Prime**
RA
2x [Class 4] energy

LA
2x [Class 4] energy
1x [Class 2] missile

* Another problematic mech that could probably only be solved by adding a quirk that forced a delay between the first volley of 2 ERPPCs and the second volley of 2 ERPPCs.

[Gyrok]

Clans have omnipods.

There are no hardpoint limitations for omnipods.

[Ultimax]

What makes a 6 ton energy projectile with a bad speed and extreme heat "problematic" compared to a 4 ton 700+m range laser or a 525m 6 ton lower heat pulse laser?

Do you even understand most people have switched to Gauss + Lasers at this point, because of how poor PPCs are for long ranged shots?

So instead of Ghost Heat, almost no one is able to use the PPC at all?



Where is your audit of BUILDS WE HAVE NOW that we will lose? Or are you only capable of dishonesty in these threads of yours?

Quote

If someone wants to make a true impact on PGI with sized hard points - pick a mech with lots of variants and lay out all the sizes for all the hard points on all the variants

Then compare that to the current game and come up with a true audit of what builds would still exist, which ones would disappear.

You are still failing one half of the challenge.

Russ challenged you

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Tastian, on 07 October 2014 - 05:16 AM, said:

* Another problematic mech that could probably only be solved by adding a quirk that forced a delay between the first volley of 2 ERPPCs and the second volley of 2 ERPPCs.

Funny eh?
You need a additional system - some weird calculation - to fix a build that is in the lore.

OK - you can redo the heat system - like in TT S7 or Mechwarrior 3 - that firing 4 Peps blow your mech into pieces the moment you do this - no matter how many heat sinks you have.


And of course what HP lovers fail to understand is that their beloved system only works as long there is not a mech that has a "problematic" loadout on stock:
Annihilator
Bane
Devastator
Thunderhawk
Hellstar
Supernova

List goes on and on and on

[Ultimax]

Karl Streiger, on 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Funny eh?
You need a additional system - some weird calculation - to fix a build that is in the lore.

OK - you can redo the heat system - like in TT S7 or Mechwarrior 3 - that firing 4 Peps blow your mech into pieces the moment you do this - no matter how many heat sinks you have.


And of course what HP lovers fail to understand is that their beloved system only works as long there is not a mech that has a "problematic" loadout on stock:
Annihilator
Bane
Devastator
Thunderhawk
Hellstar
Supernova

List goes on and on and on

King Crab stock with Dual AC 20s.

[Tastian]

Ultimatum X, on 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

What makes a 6 ton energy projectile with a bad speed and extreme heat "problematic" compared to a 4 ton 700+m range laser or a 525m 6 ton lower heat pulse laser?

What makes 4 ERPPCs more problematic then 4 ERLarge Lasers is pinpoint damage. 4 ERPPCs is 40 damage to one location in a split second. 4 ERLarge Lasers is spread out. You deliver instant damage to one location with 4 ERPPCs. You can shoot and twist to spread damage with 4 ERPPCs. With 4 ERLarge, you have to face your opponent longer and the damage is spread across 3 or more locations.

Ultimatum X, on 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Do you even understand most people have switched to Gauss + Lasers at this point, because of how poor PPCs are for long ranged shots?

So instead of Ghost Heat, almost no one is able to use the PPC at all?

EgoSlayer brought up the 4 ERPPC Warhawk as one of the problematic builds. I am answering his question. 4 ERPPCs has its own challenge in that, as you mention, they are very difficult to snipe with and they are very hot. But they are still devastating.

Ultimatum X, on 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Where is your audit of BUILDS WE HAVE NOW that we will lose? Or are you only capable of dishonesty in these threads of yours?

You are still failing one half of the challenge.

Russ challenged you

I started with hardpoint size limitations with IS mechs. Some brought up specific builds and Clan mechs that break the mold. Now I am presenting the Clan mechs. I'm still working on the audit. Please give me time; its a work in progress. I do not know why you think I'm being dishonest.

[Tastian]

Gyrok, on 07 October 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

Clans have omnipods.

There are no hardpoint limitations for omnipods.

Omnipods already have hardpoint limitations. For example, of all the Timberwolf (Prime, C, S) Left Arms, they can carry a max of 2 energy points. That's a limitation.

Ultimatum X, on 07 October 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

King Crab stock with Dual AC 20s.

Ultimatum X, on 06 October 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

Do not want.

If you think dual 20 jagers are a "problem build" you should be playing hello kitty online.

I think you answered your own problem here.

[Gyrok]

The omnipods SHOULD NOT have limitations at all...the fact that they do is more limiting than you could ever possibly imagine.

Sized hardpoints are for broken IS builds on mechs that have far more tier 2 tech than they ever should have...

Clan mechs are already screwed drastically more than they should have been.

Edited by Gyrok, 07 October 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Scratx]

Gyrok, on 07 October 2014 - 06:06 AM, said:

The omnipods SHOULD NOT have limitations at all...the fact that they do is more limiting than you could ever possibly imagine.

Sized hardpoints are for broken IS builds on mechs that have far more tier 2 tech than they ever should have...

Clan mechs are already screwed drastically more than they should have been.

Actually, IMO, sized hardpoints should be for nobody or for everybody.

That said, I think it should be dumped. The current hardpoint system, mated with the upcoming quirk system, should be more than enough to promote more diversity in chassis/variant usage.

But if sized hardpoints were to become a thing, clan mechs should not be immune to them either.

[Gyrok]

Scratx, on 07 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Actually, IMO, sized hardpoints should be for nobody or for everybody.

That said, I think it should be dumped. The current hardpoint system, mated with the upcoming quirk system, should be more than enough to promote more diversity in chassis/variant usage.

But if sized hardpoints were to become a thing, clan mechs should not be immune to them either.

Then lock internals on IS mechs, and stock engine, as well as endo/ferro from stock, along with JJs on all IS mechs.

If you are good with blanket balancing, that should not be a problem at all.

[Ultimax]

Tastian, on 07 October 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

I'm still working on the audit. Please give me time; its a work in progress. I do not know why you think I'm being dishonest.

Because the audit requires you to design all of the builds that would no longer be viable.

Builds that no sensible player would call "a problem".


Do you really believe a DWF-Prime with 2x UAC 10s and some CERMLAS and some LRMs is a "problem" build? It's no longer viable under your system.

What if I wanted those 2 UAC 10s in my torsos? That's a problem?


The dishonesty is where you don't mention the builds we would lose in your effort to take people's builds away from them, so that everyone has to play the game the way you want it to be played.

It also happens to be a requirement for the challenge Russ laid out, so failing to do it means you fail the challenge, no matter how many of these threads you make.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 October 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Tastian]

You are quite the drama queen Ultimatum. Dishonesty means "Saying something that is untrue". I have stated nothing that is untrue. I have stated that I'm working on the audit. And I am indeed working on the audit.

I've only made 2 threads - one for IS, one for Clan. You make it seem like I've started dozens.

And there is nothing wrong with a DireWolf Prime carrying 2xUAC10, some ER Med Lasers, and LRMs. In fact, some people would say there is nothing wrong with Poptarts, or Splatcats, or AC40 Jagers or 4xPPC Stalkers. But PGI agrees with many people that it is a problem. That's why they instituted Ghost Heat.

The fact of the matter is that restricted hardpoint sizes, just like Ghost Heat, will eliminate good builds and bad builds. For example, Ghost heat says carring 3 LRM10s is bad. That's 30 missiles. But you can carry 2 LRM20s and 2 LRM5s? That's 50 missiles. That makes no sense. Ghost heat says that firing 4 AC2s is bad. But firing 2 Gauss Rifles or 3 AC5s is fine? Ghost heat says that firing 4 AC5s is bad. But firing 2 Gauss is okay?

Edited by Tastian, 07 October 2014 - 06:56 AM.

[DONTOR]

FREEEEEDOOOOOMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Asyres]

I don't like it. LRMs and SRMs changing hardpoint size when Artemis is added is convoluted and silly, and this system - hardpoint size systems in general, really - break more decent builds than they do 'problematic' ones.

Heck, the changes you've proposed break almost every clan mech loadout I have, but don't break my 'laser vomit' TBR or SCR, which are probably the most 'meta' builds I have in my stable. They wouldn't even fix my supposedly problematic 4 ERPPC Warhawk - which, I'm gonna be honest, this is the first time I've heard of a Warhawk, let alone a near-stock one, referred to as a problem mech.

Edited by Asyres, 07 October 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[Fishbulb333]

[Zyllos]

Scratx, on 07 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Actually, IMO, sized hardpoints should be for nobody or for everybody.

That said, I think it should be dumped. The current hardpoint system, mated with the upcoming quirk system, should be more than enough to promote more diversity in chassis/variant usage.

But if sized hardpoints were to become a thing, clan mechs should not be immune to them either.

What exactly is the point of Omni hardpoints then?

With sized hardpoints, it gives meaning to Battlemech and Omnimech.

If sized hardpoints go (and it should), then it should only effect Battlemechs.

And the current quirk system only diversifies if a certain mech will show up or not in a small level. Sized hardpoints will make variants show up more while also giving meaning to some mechs (Hollander comes to mind).

Edited by Zyllos, 07 October 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Almond Brown]

It is a Circular problem that fixed/sized hard-points will not solve. Any audit will, in the end, just create another series of Mechs that many will then seen as "problematic", while sending others, how many is the great unknown, to the "Garage".

[Violent Nick]

Ultimatum X, on 07 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

What makes a 6 ton energy projectile with a bad speed and extreme heat "problematic" compared to a 4 ton 700+m range laser or a 525m 6 ton lower heat pulse laser?

Do you even understand most people have switched to Gauss + Lasers at this point, because of how poor PPCs are for long ranged shots?

So instead of Ghost Heat, almost no one is able to use the PPC at all?



Where is your audit of BUILDS WE HAVE NOW that we will lose? Or are you only capable of dishonesty in these threads of yours?




You are still failing one half of the challenge.

Russ challenged you

I tried a Nova with 2 Er PPcs just now... bought modules for it too; Total waste. This is why I'm not giving any more money over. I just can't justify it given the 'balancing' that has happened. I'm not saying that I want any particular weapons/mechs to be OP or whatever, but the PPC speed nerf with the heat etc just makes them trash to me. Though it is funny when I taunt other people whilst dodging there's, but then again although I can be pretty mean when I'm in the mood, that's not why I play..

'sigh...'

[Tastian]

Freedom. People want freedom. But they don't want broken builds either. Here is a kind of list of most to least freedom:


1. Total customization - use whatever weapons or engine you can fit into the critical slots. Make 30 MG builds or 30 Med Laser builds!
2. Weapon Hardpoint Limitations - MWO at Closed Beta. No Ghost Heat means 6 PPCs or 8 Large Lasers are possible.
3. Weapon Hardpoint Limitations w Ghost Heat - Innersphere mechs in MWO now
4. Sized Weapon Hardpoint Limitations - remove Ghost Heat but skew builds closer to Stock loadouts
5. Weapon Hardpoint Limitations w Ghost Heat and no upgrades - Clan mechs in MWO now
6. Stock Weapons with Timeline Upgrades - allow some upgrades like adding armor, upgrading engine to XL, Endo, CASE, Med Laser to ERMed Laser, etc..
7. Stock Only - Players can only use mechs as they appear in the Technical Readouts