62 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Ghost heat breaks the laws of nature, and thus decreases the immersion in the game. I respectfully request it be removed so as to not anger nature. Ghost heat breaks the law by increasing the input heat beyond the output energy. Perpetual motion machines cannot exist for this same reason.


From: http://en.wikipedia...._thermodynamics

Quote

First law of thermodynamics: Heat is a form of energy. Because energy is conserved, the internal energy of a system changes as heat flows in or out of it. Equivalently, machines that violate the first law (perpetual motion machines) are impossible.

[Moromillas]

Firing a mounted weapon (even a missile launcher) from a "walking tank" is just not possible, the thing would be blasted on its rear end no matter how you designed it.

But we still should because MechWarrior.

[Bagheera]

Thermodynamics went down the well when coolant flush was added, sad to say. There are better solutions proposed than ghost heat and it should be changed for that reason.

[Mechteric]

Moromillas, on 19 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Firing a mounted weapon (even a missile launcher) from a "walking tank" is just not possible, the thing would be blasted on its rear end no matter how you designed it.

But we still should because MechWarrior.

Walking soldiers fire rockets and recoil-less rifles in real life without being blasted on their rear end. Please stay to the topic.

[Moromillas]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 February 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

Walking soldiers fire rockets and recoil-less rifles in real life without being blasted on their rear end. Please stay to the topic.

It's on topic.

Walking soldiers ALSO, don't fire mounted weapons for the same reason. That, and they can't lift them, yet. Staying in the realm of reality sucks balls, we should have giant walking war machines, with huge weapons, and mechanics to balance that, even if it goes outside of the realm of reality.

[Dirus Nigh]

Moromillas, on 19 February 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Firing a mounted weapon (even a missile launcher) from a "walking tank" is just not possible, the thing would be blasted on its rear end no matter how you designed it.

But we still should because MechWarrior.

I love comments like this.

Because a fictional machine does not exist in real life, then real the real physical laws do not matter.

Suspension of disbelief only works until fiction blatantly brakes with reality, or when it brakes with the established laws of the setting. Ghost heat does both.

Walking robots are a reality. They are at a very primitive stage at this time, however as the engineers learn from making them, they will get better. I would imagine in a hundred years or so, the engineers could have a functional human sized, bipedal walking robot. Keep in mind that we already have quadruped robots that can gallop on natural terrain. IE not on paved factory floors.

Your assertions about recoil are off. There are many things that be done to mitigate recoil. Gas venting, springs, shock pads, and gyro stabilizers. Modern fire arms already do this.

[Moromillas]

Dirus Nigh, on 19 February 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Because a fictional machine does not exist in real life, then real the real physical laws do not matter.

Why would you say the laws of physics don't matter? Do you really think that?

Dirus Nigh, on 19 February 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Suspension of disbelief only works until fiction blatantly brakes with reality, or when it brakes with the established laws of the setting. Ghost heat does both.

Walking robots are a reality. They are at a very primitive stage at this time, however as the engineers learn from making them, they will get better. I would imagine in a hundred years or so, the engineers could have a functional human sized, bipedal walking robot. Keep in mind that we already have quadruped robots that can gallop on natural terrain. IE not on paved factory floors.

Your assertions about recoil are off. There are many things that be done to mitigate recoil. Gas venting, springs, shock pads, and gyro stabilizers. Modern fire arms already do this.

Oh dear. Forget mounted weapon recoil, what's to stop them from landing on their asses from a swift wind. If you're going to say, give it a hundred years, why not be generous and give it a thousand years. The robot, Asimo, has trouble walking up stairs, now image that upscaled to the size of a building. Still think it's possible, or even a good idea?

The point is, it's a video game, it doesn't have to be realistic, it has to be entertaining. No, ghost heat isn't too egregious, it helps balance the game, I don't think anyone would notice that it breaks laws unless someone points it out. Not realistic isn't a valid reason to scrap it.

Edited by Moromillas, 19 February 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Kissamies]

Heh, in the Battletech universe the same weapons have range of tens of meters on the ground (Battletech hex: 30 meters), but tens of thousands of kilometers in space (Aerotech space hex: 6500 kilometers). Why? Heat sinks work more efficiently because it's very cold in space

Clearly it's a matter of gameplay over realism, always has been.

[Mechteric]

Kissamies, on 19 February 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Clearly it's a matter of gameplay over realism, always has been.

There's been plenty of threads noting how bad ghost heat is for gameplay (because it just shifted over to PPC+Ballistic from pure PPC), so I thought I'd approach the topic from another point of view.

[Bhael Fire]

No, I think ghost heat should should be removed because it's a clumsy, overly-convoluted design mechanic. There are several other methods they could employ that would be just as effective, but more elegant in design.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 19 February 2014 - 10:07 AM.

[CHH Badkarma]

PGI and other players could not talk high alpha build players (6ppc builds) to play more well rounded builds so the ghosht heat nerf was used. You cannot legislate morality, or in the case of this game basic combat tactics so they used this as a bandaide. Sadly it gimped stock builds like the awesome and soon to be warhawk aswell as others. Plain and simple it needs to be done away with and a better points system put in place as a way to lure players to different builds or rolls. Until then people who only care about the kill will use whatever is the fastest way to get them, roll warfare is not a concern for them.
PGI needs to sweeten the pot so to speak and maybe those players will be more flexable with builds. Until then, we will all suffer from gimp fixes

[Prezimonto]

I have a bigger thermo problem with HPG than I do with Ghost Heat.

[Mechteric]

Jason Radick, on 19 February 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

PGI and other players could not talk high alpha build players (6ppc builds) to play more well rounded builds so the ghosht heat nerf was used. You cannot legislate morality, or in the case of this game basic combat tactics so they used this as a bandaide.

The weird thing though is they increased the PPC heat _AFTER_ they had introduce ghost heat. I am only left to wonder that if the PPC heat had been increased alone that it would have been sufficient. The only reason the PPC heat was lowered to begin with was because before Host State Rewind it was much harder to hit things with.

When you put it all together you are right, it was a bandaid. But the wound has healed, its time to remove the bandaid.

[Kissamies]

CapperDeluxe, on 19 February 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

There's been plenty of threads noting how bad ghost heat is for gameplay (because it just shifted over to PPC+Ballistic from pure PPC), so I thought I'd approach the topic from another point of view.

Yeah, and that is more valid argument than "immersion breaking". The ridiculously low ranges of the weapons break my immersion way more, but I don't complain because it's for Battletech authenticity and gameplay. I think you may do more harm than good for your cause with this approach.

[Victor Morson]

Breaking immersion I can live with, but...

• Wrecks weapons that didn't need limits in the first place (LL, AC2)
  
• Doesn't do what it set out to do (Our alpha damage has barely changed.)
  
• Completely illogical linking. 1x20 3x10 LRMs will cause 32.06 extra heat while 2x20 2x5 causes 0 extra heat for the same missiles. What?
  
• It's had bugs from the start. Why have a sticky in Gameplay Balance about why it screws up AC2s instead of making it not screw up AC2s?
  
• Is the #1 thing responsible for so many chassis begin in the trash bin and why everyone runs ballistic+energy setups. All energy or missile is simply no longer viable, but all ballistic is fine.
  
• Adjusting the PPC improved the game drastically more than Ghost Heat ever, ever did. Fixing the weapons in the XML is what's needed, not complicated systems!

Perhaps the last part is finally sticking with the Pulse Laser changes, but Ghost Heat is a relic band-aid that has failed in it's job (Gauss+PPC did not go away because of Ghost Heat, but rather, the PPC fix and Gauss change!) and is absolutely strangling diversity that would otherwise be present right now.

Jason Radick, on 19 February 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

PGI and other players could not talk high alpha build players (6ppc builds) to play more well rounded builds so the ghosht heat nerf was used.

The thing to remmeber is that the 6 PPC Stalker was back when PPCs were in their super buffed stage. Once they got returned to closed beta levels (where they did need a buff due to Hit State Rewind not existing at the time), the 6 PPC Stalker would have absolutely died on it's own. It'd just be way, way, way too hot to use now; even the 4 PPC Stalker would be incredibly toasty, and that one was always the better option.

That said, I don't mind "incredibly toasty." Ghost Heat renders that "impossible." Is 4 PPCs really worse for the game than 2 PPCs and 2 Ultra 5s? I can't see how. Don't even get me started on Large Lasers.

I cannot stress enough that many folks think that Gauss+PPC was killed by Ghost Heat. It wasn't. We ran it, successfully, right up until the Gauss got the delay at which point everyone swapped to ACs.

[Dymlos2003]

Victor Morson, on 19 February 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

• Is the #1 thing responsible for so many chassis begin in the trash bin and why everyone runs ballistic+energy setups. All energy or missile is simply no longer viable, but all ballistic is fine.

All my energy and missile builds are perfectly viable, just because you suck with them doesn't make them not.

[Mechteric]

Kissamies, on 19 February 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

I think you may do more harm than good for your cause with this approach.

If we don't occasionally stir it the burnt pieces will stick to the pot and become much harder to remove later. Plus you'd get this nasty burnt taste the whole time.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Certainly need to address heat mechanics.



And for big stompy robot development forget Asimo, look more towards Boston Dynamics' Atlas and Petman, for functional bipedal robots currently in development.

Not to mention pet projects like Kuratas as other sources of inspiration for more R&D in that area of robotics.

[Hythos]

We know that this game has been changed in (likely every) ways to attract FPS gamers.

The Gauss Rifle was named a "Sniper Weapon" because no other mechanic closely resembled something that the "sniper type" of FPS player could identify with.

Ghost Heat was implemented for one of two possible reasons:
1) to protect the casual player from the meta-only FPS-players boating PPC's/weapons
or
2) to mitigate the amount of meta-only FPS-player's damage potential in order to keep it from going stale - a-la Counter-Strike AWP fights.

In either case, idiotic mechanic is idiotic... and FPS players typically can't understand the "why" that it is; they just accept it and play the game anyway, which is PGI's goal.

[Fut]

Moromillas, on 19 February 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

The robot, Asimo, has trouble walking up stairs, now image that upscaled to the size of a building. Still think it's possible, or even a good idea?

Asimo isn't even relevant anymore.


Love the one comment "Aim for the legs"