27 replies to this topic

[Lexx]

I know Russ said PGI is done with Clan vs. IS weapon balancing, but I feel a few weapons were missed. I'm surprised I haven't really seen any threads about these. I'll probably get a lot of hate from clanners for this thread, but I wanted to address it anyways.

Clan Gauss rifle weighs 3 tons less and only takes up 6 slots instead of 7. It does the same damage, same projectile speed, everything else is the same. The Clan Gauss is just plain better. There is nothing that makes it "different yet equal" to the IS Gauss.

Solution: Increase the charge up time on Clan Gauss rifles.

Clan ER PPC weighs one less ton and only takes up 2 slots, it does 50% more damage. (though that extra damage is spread out some). Everything else is the same. Here we have another Clan weapon that is just plain better than it's IS counterpart.

Solution: Increase the heat generated by the Clan ER PPC, since it does extra damage.

Clan SRMs weigh half as much and take up one less slot, yet the IS SRMs do less than one point of damage more for an SRM 6. Not enough of a difference to make up for the Clan advantage in my opinion.

Same thing with Clan LB 10X.

I don't see how anyone can think the weapon balancing is done, with some of the Clan weapons are still clearly superior AND (in most cases) they can mount more of them.

[FupDup]

ERPPC heat is high enough as it is. If anything, just make IS [ER]PPCs have a faster projectile speed since they're not even good anymore. Then again, the Clan ERPPC also isn't that good, as it's inferior to Clan lasers.


For Goose Waffles, I'd rather see:
1. Increase Clan Goose explosion rate to 100%
2. Reduce IS Goose explosion rate to, I dunno, like 70%?
3. Increase IS Goose health a little bit (i.e. up to 6.5, from 5.5)


IS SRMs could use a heat reduction by -1 point. LBX for both factions need serious reform (only truly useful one is the LB 5-X).


In general, do keep in mind that part of the "hidden downside" of Clan guns is that they have to be mounted on a Clan chassis. You have to deal with the hardwired stock engine, hardwired DHS if applicable, lack of Endo and/or FF, any hardwired JJs, and/or any other hardwired random crap like a Flamer or Active Probe. IS mechs get unlimited min-maxing in exchange for usually weaker weapons.

The only Clan chassis that don't have significant hardwired weaknesses are the Doomcrow and Angry Kitten. All of the others have some kind of drawback or another that can never be customized out of the mech.

Edited by FupDup, 08 October 2014 - 10:50 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Clans are not supposed to be balanced.... there supposed to dominate end of story.

[Elizander]

Lexx, on 08 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I know Russ said PGI is done with Clan vs. IS weapon balancing, but I feel a few weapons were missed. I'm surprised I haven't really seen any threads about these. I'll probably get a lot of hate from clanners for this thread, but I wanted to address it anyways.

Clan Gauss rifle weighs 3 tons less and only takes up 6 slots instead of 7. It does the same damage, same projectile speed, everything else is the same. The Clan Gauss is just plain better. There is nothing that makes it "different yet equal" to the IS Gauss.

Solution: Increase the charge up time on Clan Gauss rifles.

Clan ER PPC weighs one less ton and only takes up 2 slots, it does 50% more damage. (though that extra damage is spread out some). Everything else is the same. Here we have another Clan weapon that is just plain better than it's IS counterpart.

Solution: Increase the heat generated by the Clan ER PPC, since it does extra damage.

Clan SRMs weigh half as much and take up one less slot, yet the IS SRMs do less than one point of damage more for an SRM 6. Not enough of a difference to make up for the Clan advantage in my opinion.

Same thing with Clan LB 10X.

I don't see how anyone can think the weapon balancing is done, with some of the Clan weapons are still clearly superior AND (in most cases) they can mount more of them.

Clan Gauss charge time can be increased by 0.25 seconds just for the sake of making it somewhat on par with IS?

ER PPC is already too hot to use. Longer cooldown maybe but it's not really a weapon that is dominating the battlefield.

Clan SRMs just give it the Clan LRM treatment and make it stream out one by one just like the missiles in Legends.

LBX-10 maybe less critcal chance than IS one... assuming they still have critical chance boosts.

[Narcoleptes]

No option for standard PPCs hurts clans alot. I don't really care about the splash damage, doesn't really help that much aside from boosting match scores.

Gauss rifles... I like the idea of making IS gauss less likely to explode or do less damage when it does. That is a good idea.

So here I am thinking Clan weapons balance is fine. Clans don't even have FLD autocannons

[Abisha]

the weapon it self is balanced only certain mechs have enough room to fit Gauss away.
remember that clan mech's are very strict on the weapons of choose.

[Lexx]

Tombstoner, on 08 October 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Clans are not supposed to be balanced.... there supposed to dominate end of story.

I can't believe anyone here still tries to use this argument. The Clans were better on TT, but they always fought outnumbered at least 2 to 1. The way PGI implemented the clans they fight against even numbers here with roughly even weights. Unless their weaponry is roughly equal, the clans will always have an unfair advantage.

PGI has never said the clans are supposed to be superior or "dominate" in MWO. In fact they have said they intended to make them "different yet equal". Your argument is completely invalid here, and you should know that by now, and yet some still insist on using it.

Edited by Lexx, 08 October 2014 - 11:01 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Change to the Clan ERPPC? Id trade in that 2.5/2.5 splash down to 10dmg for like...13 heat?

[Mcgral18]

Why not buff the IS stuff instead?

You've already got the cERSL, cSPL and cMPL killed.


isGauss, couple things you can do. Increase HP, decrease explosion chance. Or something entirely different, remove charge, 5 second cooldown, restrict to firing 1 per 0.5 seconds? Hurts dual Gauss, but then you'd have to do something to the Whales.


As for SRMs, leave cSRMs as is, give the isSRMs Dead-Fire warheads. Either 3.0 damage per missile, or 2.5 and a speed buff.

There, more firepower for more tonnage.


I can't agree on Clams being better. There are two that stand out, and if you're afraid of the Whale that makes three. Out of 9. Is it the weapons, or the mechs themselves? Blanket nerfing the Cute Fox, Badder, Suckoner, Nope-Va and PeaceDove doesn't really help the game.

[Blackscreen]

Lexx, on 08 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Compares weapon to weapon; ignores fixed critical slots and equipment.

Well played sir, well played....

[keith]

lore is already thrown out the window with IS tech being more customized then clan tech. how about we let the few last bit of clan advantage be there mmkay.

[Monkey Lover]

I wish I could put IS weapons on my clan mechs even with the same stats. Other than lasers clan weapons are a joke.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 08 October 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Ph30nix]

what bugs me is they did all their balancing/testing in a mixed match environment.

And they are keeping alot of old nerfs that were created based on IS mechs vs other IS mechs, but they didnt take into account IS vs Clan. So what might have been OP in IS vs IS might be perfect in IS Vs Clan.

Monkey Lover, on 08 October 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

I wish I could put IS weapons on my clan mechs even with the same stats. Other than lasers clan weapons are a joke.

and considering lasers as a whole are pretty much a joke that isnt a good thing.

[Ultimax]

Stop, seriously.

Just stop.


The difference between IS Gauss Rifles and Clan Gauss rifles is that IS Gauss rifles DON'T SEE YOU HAVE MANDATORY HEATSINKS THAT YOU HAVE NO USE FOR.



Clan and IS mechs are built differently, with different rules. Stop looking at things in a vacuum.


The Clan Gauss rifle is the only good ballistic weapon the entire faction has.

[FupDup]

Ultimatum X, on 08 October 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Stop, seriously.

Just stop.


The difference between IS Gauss Rifles and Clan Gauss rifles is that IS Gauss rifles DON'T SEE YOU HAVE MANDATORY HEATSINKS THAT YOU HAVE NO USE FOR.



Clan and IS mechs are built differently, with different rules. Stop looking at things in a vacuum.


The Clan Gauss rifle is the only good ballistic weapon the entire faction has.

I'd say that the LB 5-X is passable, since its spread is small enough to be manageable at mid ranges and has most of the other benefits of an AC/5. If not for the lack of chassis that can make good use of it (currently only the Whale and Wolf can really use more than one) then the LB 5-X would probably see more use.

The Lelbringer should be a good candidate, with 2 LB 5-X in the RT and 3 ERML in the LT (maybe an extra ERML in the head?).

[Tombstoner]

Lexx, on 08 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

I can't believe anyone here still tries to use this argument. The Clans were better on TT, but they always fought outnumbered at least 2 to 1. The way PGI implemented the clans they fight against even numbers here with roughly even weights. Unless their weaponry is roughly equal, the clans will always have an unfair advantage.

PGI has never said the clans are supposed to be superior or "dominate" in MWO. In fact they have said they intended to make them "different yet equal". Your argument is completely invalid here, and you should know that by now, and yet some still insist on using it.

You said it yourself clans are balanced by a numbers disadvantage not present in MWO. till that is fixed power creep renders IS and clan balancing impossible because its all taken from TT. People are deluding themselves to think otherwise. Clan vs. IS clearly showed clans are dominant. Over all clan tech is simply better. You can fool yourself into thinking other wise with tweeks and such.

To fix a balanced IS/Clan 2-1 situation you have to nerf clan firepower by 50%. That cant be done without breaking clan mechs. Nova is a perfect example and thats pre nerf. jack up cerml heat but leave voodoo heat in place. Fire power is reduced all right or you kill yourself.

You just need to look at IS vs IS balancing and see how well that went. Now add superior tech that was balanced by numbers.The word I'm looking for is denial. launch clans 6 vs.12 IS and see how it goes. till then nerfing clan tech is a travesty. o wait cant do that cause the majority of the player base will be clan... long q times are bad.

[Farix]

Lexx, on 08 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I know Russ said PGI is done with Clan vs. IS weapon balancing, but I feel a few weapons were missed. I'm surprised I haven't really seen any threads about these. I'll probably get a lot of hate from clanners for this thread, but I wanted to address it anyways.

Clan Gauss rifle weighs 3 tons less and only takes up 6 slots instead of 7. It does the same damage, same projectile speed, everything else is the same. The Clan Gauss is just plain better. There is nothing that makes it "different yet equal" to the IS Gauss.

Solution: Increase the charge up time on Clan Gauss rifles.

You can't just look at the weapon and do a 1v1 comparison. You also have to look at the mechs on which these weapons can be fielded on.

Clans make extensive use of both Endo and FF, which doesn't leave them with much room to begin with. They actually need weapons that take less crit slots because of of their crit slots are already used. On top of that, many of those slots used by Endo/FF are fixed and can't be moved around. In an IS mech, the specific crit slots that Endo/FF use are dynamic, thus allowing the IS mech greater flexibility.

[Tahribator]

I think there are still a few Clan weapons left which are just superior without any "balancing" elements.

Clan-AMS Ammo: 2000 rounds per ton vs 1000 per ton.
Clan-Gauss: 3 ton lighter IS Gauss that requires one less critical slot.
Clan-LBX-10: 1 ton lighter IS LBX-10 that requires one less critical slot.
Clan-SRM6: 1.5 tons lighter, requires one less critical slot. Does 0.15 less damage per missile, negligible when the tonnage and criticals are considered.
Clan-MG: 0.2 ton lighter IS MG.

I would love to hear Paul's reasonings for this. Is it the limited critical slot structure of the Clan 'Mechs necessiating these flat-out superior weapons? How about the balance of those Clan 'Mechs not really hurt by fixed criticals like the Dire Wolf?

[Appogee]

Lexx, on 08 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

I know Russ said PGI is done with Clan vs. IS weapon balancing,

When and where did he allegedly say that?

[Mcgral18]

Appogee, on 09 October 2014 - 03:49 AM, said:

When and where did he allegedly say that?

He said they didn't want to touch them anymore, which means my Wub will always be terrible, and that balance won't a dynamic thing where balance is slightly changed every patch.

They don't like Wub.