336 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

The net result of forcing stock hardpoint sizes on the game is that the Locust, the Commando, the Spider, the Raven, the Cicada, the Blackjack, the Centurion, the Griffin, the Kintaro, the Shadow Hawk, the Wolverine, the Quickdraw, the Dragon, the Thunderbolt, the Stalker, and the Banshee all become absolutely piss-poor worthless, as do most Hunchbacks, most Trebuchets, most JagerMechs, most Catapults, some Cataphracts, most Orions, some Awesome, some Battlemasters, some Highlanders, and most Atlases.

Does that sound like an acceptable list of "piss-poor worthless" to you?

So wait -- if all 'Mechs are worthless compared to the current game, how would that make them perform against 'Mechs that all have similar hardpoint restrictions?

If we're going to make a hypothetical world, why don't we compare these useless builds to the builds they would be fighting against, rather than what we have now.

Yeah, a 'Mech with smaller hard points would be worthless in the current game. A Trebuchet with 30 LRM's is laughed at when you can bring something with 90 LRM's. But what if in this hypothetical world, 30 LRM's is a respectable compliment of missiles that only a few other 'Mechs in the game can bring?

[Victor Morson]

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

And the rest of us are chattering idiots with no idea what we're doing or talking about who should just listen to our betters, right?

This has nothing to do with superiority and everything to do with experience. We know this system works because we have seen it work, and very well at that.

That's all there is to it. You and others are playing theorycrafting sessions about why it may or may not work, while those of us championing have seen proof with our own eyes that it works - and very well at that.

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

You know Quick, it might have flown. If, way back in the closed beta days, there had been enough push for it, you probably could've implemented stock-sized hardpoints back then, when the game was still very much in flux. I maintain that it would have rendered nine out of ten chassis completely. F***ing. Useless. with the remaining one in ten lucky enough to have the right perfect-storm combination of hardpoints, hardpoint sizes, and hitboxes being so crushingly, impossibly dominant that we're not talking the difference between a T1 and a T3, we're talking the difference between a T1 and a T17. But you seem to be perfectly okay with that, so all right. We'll ignore for the moment how intensely restrictive and narrow-focused this would render the game.

Only if they absolutely butcher the hardpoint placement. Otherwise everything you just said is absolute, pure, unfounded conjecture based on "what you think" and nothing else.

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

It might've flown back in closed beta. It's not going to fly now. Not when thousands of players have two-plus years, billions of C-bills, and hundreds of dollars invested in stables of dozens of 'Mechs that you're effectively destroying. Even if Piranha could financially weather the whole "100% sellback!" solution, it wouldn't work. Many players would, with absolute justification, spit in Piranha's collective eye and say "I don't want my money back, I WANT MY GOD DAMN MECH BACK!" Because people who've sunk hours and hours in mastering out the 'Mechs they like, into grinding the bucks for the modules that work with the 'Mechs they like, that have built their styles of play and their unit doctrines around the 'Mechs they like, are not going to accept being told "You can't do any of that anymore. You have to use the stock armaments, because it's better for game balance and because a bunch of crusty old TT hands on the forums told us to."

First off: Nobody wants stock. For Christ's sake, people need to stop bringing up stock 'mechs in these threads. I loathe the idea of stock mech only.

Second off: Yes, that is actually an issue, that if you bought, say a Stalker for 4 PPCs and suddenly the Awesome is the 'mech for that. I get it. But you know what? The quirk system already does this, in a way, as does every single major change to every single weapon system.

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

You cannot remove ninety-nine out of a hundred builds from the hangars of every single player of MWO and expect them to shrug it off with a "Meh. I can deal. Especially since it wouldn't fix any of the problems Ghost Heat sets out to fix anyways and thus WE'D HAVE TO KEEP GHOST HEAT, TOO.

That is a huge leap in logic. "This wouldn't fix problems of X so WE NEED MORE X!" is just WTF? heh. And assuming that the variant designer does a decent job, those "huge libraries of 'mechs" would have different roles and purposes, and odds are you'd still have one fitting your play style.. and maybe introduce some new play styles.

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

The net result of forcing stock hardpoint sizes on the game is that the Locust, the Commando, the Spider, the Raven, the Cicada, the Blackjack, the Centurion, the Griffin, the Kintaro, the Shadow Hawk, the Wolverine, the Quickdraw, the Dragon, the Thunderbolt, the Stalker, and the Banshee all become absolutely piss-poor worthless, as do most Hunchbacks, most Trebuchets, most JagerMechs, most Catapults, some Cataphracts, most Orions, some Awesome, some Battlemasters, some Highlanders, and most Atlases.

You keep saying stock. Nobody is suggesting stock. Ever.

Your logic is also literally backward. With designer-set hardpoints, 'mechs like the Kintaro and Trebuchet could find brand new niches in this game. So they would be buffed, not rendered to "piss-poor" shape.

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

Does that sound like an acceptable list of "piss-poor worthless" to you?

No, but if any hardpoints are assigned that makes any mech "piss poor" someone did a bad job at picking the hardpoints!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

And the rest of us are chattering idiots with no idea what we're doing or talking about who should just listen to our betters, right?

Hyperbole on the first statement, not a great start for you. What I think is that those who played NBT saw an environment that had sized hardpoints and diversity. We have experience with the only sized hardpoint example throughout Mechwarrior that I know of. We also have experience to know better than to assume that sized hardpoints would 'kill all diversity' like many against sized hardpoints seem to keep spouting. Its not that you are chattering idiots because I've seen worthwhile rational arguments from you and Ultimatum, but our experience does give us some sort of ground to stand on to say that no, it does not kill diversity in response.
As for your passive aggression towards sized hardpoints and its proponents, that is what makes you seem like a chattering idiot.....

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

The scheisstorm such an announcement would create would be infinitely worse than the scheisstorm created by every previous Year of Infamy Piranha announcement combined. If, for some reason, the changes went through, MWO would die inside a month.

You cannot remove ninety-nine out of a hundred builds from the hangars of every single player of MWO and expect them to shrug it off with a "Meh. I can deal. Especially since it wouldn't fix any of the problems Ghost Heat sets out to fix anyways and thus WE'D HAVE TO KEEP GHOST HEAT, TOO.

The net result of forcing stock hardpoint sizes on the game is that the Locust, the Commando, the Spider, the Raven, the Cicada, the Blackjack, the Centurion, the Griffin, the Kintaro, the Shadow Hawk, the Wolverine, the Quickdraw, the Dragon, the Thunderbolt, the Stalker, and the Banshee all become absolutely piss-poor worthless, as do most Hunchbacks, most Trebuchets, most JagerMechs, most Catapults, some Cataphracts, most Orions, some Awesome, some Battlemasters, some Highlanders, and most Atlases.

Does that sound like an acceptable list of "piss-poor worthless" to you?

But this is just sad, so much hyperbole its not even funny. It's not even worth arguing with it, BECAUSE you are founding all your opinions on the SAME false assumption that you have been for pretty much this entire discussion on top of ridiculous hyperbole everywhere.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 10 October 2014 - 04:20 PM.

[1453 R]

DocBach, on 10 October 2014 - 04:13 PM, said:

So wait -- if all 'Mechs are worthless compared to the current game, how would that make them perform against 'Mechs that all have similar hardpoint restrictions?

If we're going to make a hypothetical world, why don't we compare these useless builds to the builds they would be fighting against, rather than what we have now.

Yeah, a 'Mech with smaller hard points would be worthless in the current game. A Trebuchet with 30 LRM's is laughed at when you can bring something with 90 LRM's. But what if in this hypothetical world, 30 LRM's is a respectable compliment of missiles that only a few other 'Mechs in the game can bring?

30 LRMs would still be pared down to a pittance against current AMS, and as is usual, 'Mechs which bring penny-packet singleton 5 or 10 launchers would be better served by ripping them out and leaving the weight blank.

But let's do some work, shall we?

BLR-1G, Post Hardpoint Depression.

This thing conforms to the stock hardpoint sizes - Piranha is unable to prevent this build short of invalidating the 1G's stock armament. The Battlemaster is more agile and has much better agility than the Awesome, even in this version with its stock STD 340 engine. The hardpoints in the side torsos are cockpit-level or bloody near to it, and while the Battlemaster's hitboxes aren't up to snuff with the Victor, they're orders of magnitude better than the Awesome.

This Battlemaster invalidates the existence of energy-boat Awesomes, which cannot compete with its greater armor, much superior hitboxes, hillpeeking capability, superior mobility, and also its inherently greater flexibility due to being able to mount batteries of medium lasers, a'la stock, rather than PPCs if IS MLs are ever worth equipping again. This thing fires 30 PPPPPPPPFLFLFLFDDDLD damage any time it wants to, can shield with the left side all the way to ST loss and retain two thirds of its firepower, and due to the removal of Ghost Heat it can alpha strike those three IS PPCs for days on end. if it's hillhumping and thusly only using the shoulder-mounted PPCs, you'd almost have to actively try to get it to overheat.

Nothing in the heavy weight class could touch this thing in a distance fight, post Hardpoint Depression. The JagerMech? Its dual Gauss builds will've all been invalidated, forcing it into DPS-based light autocannons. It doesn't have the armor to stare down constant hits of 20 PPFLD from a hill-peeking assault 'Mech able to twist about as it pleases and spread damage much more easily across its already superior armor. The Cataphract, another traditional high hardpoint hill abuser? It can't mount anything bigger than medium lasers in its once-prized high-mounted hardpoints. The CPLT-K2? The K2 can match this sucker's high-mounted sniping capacity, but it can't even begin to match the Battlemaster's armor or hitboxes. Anything with LRMs? LAWLZ. Radar Derp, nub. Backpedal down the hill, sidestep twice, giggle at the poor missile-hucking loser. or drop a heat sink for an AMS and half a ton of ammo and use your AMS toggle judiciously.

Sure, the Clans would be able to threaten it with fast energy boats the same way the Clans currently threaten everything with fast energy boats, but I find it difficult to believe that the Inner Sphere could produce much that would be able to hold up to this particular Fattlemaster in a distance fight. And if the Fattlemaster in question wanted to go a different route, it wouldn't even be super-reliant on teammates to protect it in close. Dual AC/2 is half of the JagerMech's effective armament, post Hardpoint Depression, and combined with a large laser it would be able to ward off most anything in the 40-65 ton range in close. It'd be threatened by lights, but what assault 'Mech isn't? And when has that actually mattered?

I'm not even an ultracomp and I can tell that this sort of "solution to all of MWO's problems" is no such thing. In two minutes I managed to identify a 'Mech that, should you guys manage to get your 2km/s PPCs back and Ghost Heat lifted, would utterly, crushingly dominate distance combat with the same combination of high-mounted heavy weaponry that has always dominated distance combat, and short Clan energy boats managing to get inside its cover, distance combat has dominated the game since before 12v12 was a thing.

I just don't see this brilliant cornucopia of diversity and balance exploding from the game's seams that all you guys swear would happen if only we locked all 'Mechs in the game to their stock hardpoint sizes. I see the game ending up the same way it's always been - a small handful of optimal chassis dominates - except now there's no actual, physically possible way to get most of the rest of the 'Mechs in the game up to even Puglandia-acceptable standards to try and compete.

All of this, of course, says nothing whatsoever about how these changes and Inner Sphere tech base-wide Ultranerf pretty much completely bypasses Clan beam boats. I suppose I get to be glad I'm a Clan pilot most of the time these days? Sure, I don't get to put C-Gauss on...anything...anymore, which will stink and make me upset, but I can just switch over to bog-standard Current-Metatasic Laser Vomits and walk all over the Spheroids running around with five structural slots' worth of weapons to try and stop me. Especially since Ghost Heat isn't constraining my fire the least little bit anymore.

Sucks to be you guys, I suppose.

[Jack Corban]

Tastian, on 09 October 2014 - 05:23 AM, said:

"like in Battletech". In Battletech, you use stock loadouts. period. That's why Innersphere had variants. Otherwise whats the difference between the Jagermech A, DD, S, and Firebrand. All Hero mechs in MWO would be useless. And why master 3 variants if they are identical? Omnimechs in Battletech allowed limited customization because full customization didn't exist. Oh, sure it would be fun to build a 20x LRM5 mech; but our field would be nothing but outrageous boats.

I don't get where these kids come from either. In The Battletech Univers you get a Mech if that is what you do and that mech is provided to you either by your employer (Houses, Corps, whatever) or if you are a rich person you buy your own personal one.

In the first example you have your mech and this mech will stay the way it is until the employer i.e. your Commander, etc. decides otherwise. wich will mostly revolve around you sitting your behind down in a different variant or chassis. Because and most people here forget this. IS TECH IS HARDWIRED! CLAN TECH IS MODULAR!

So unless you are a Merc Unit Pilot or a novel Protagonist and your centurion had the bad luck that its right arm got blown off in the last skirmish and you have to replace it to get it back to near 100% Combat effectivness in short time, you will not find ANY customization. This whole "THIS is my Chassis and i only pick it for the optics and now i rip out everything and fit it completely different and away from its intended roll and design mentality" is a 100% MECHWARRIOR sickness.

Stock mech are "for the most part" balanced and if we all would play our Mechs stock or near to stock TTK would be less of an issue than it is now. Hell we could even get rid of Ghostheat and this stupid 1.4 DHS Bullcrap.

Most Stockmechs have a varied arsenal of weaponry and can be very effective in their intended roll. This is where is see positive quirks kicking in to support that. But Hardpoint sizes are the real way to go here. Because the Hunchback and the Yen-Lo-Wang should be the only Mediums we courrently have that should be able to fit an AC/20 period. You know that Hunch of the Hunchback isn't just for shits and giggles. The AC/20 is a BFG and it needs its space. And seriously no Catapult K2 should be able to even think about fitting one. That hardpoint is for a MG if you really need to increase its punch then i will compromise and say ok fit a AC/2 but thats it end of story. And this system aplied to every mech will bring us balance. And all the naysayers in here are welcome to join me and others ...

...HERE

http://mwomercs.com/...k-mech-mondays/

and HERE

http://mwomercs.com/...era-wednesdays/

to see how fun Stock can be.

We have matches that take up to 20 minutes. because you know you gotta think when to fire now. You have to conserve Ammo, protect your mainweaponry, rely on your team to be able to use your mech effective.

Oh and just btw i play all my Mechs stock in general queue and i still get between 1-3 kills every round somtimes even more. So don't tell me a Standart Heatsink Mech has no validity. You are just a bad pilot that can not succeed with out his crutch.

RANT OVER! ENJOY! PEACE!

[divinedisclaimer]

I'm tired of having to dramatically adapt my style of play because major gameplay redesigns break my very non-meta niches as a side-effect of attempting to make a competitive game out of this no-name title.

[DocBach]

If LRM's prove to be made useless by AMS changes that were made to counter massive clouds of seventy missiles, perhaps they could be scaled back so they weren't so effective against missiles? And, in a 'Mech with limited hard points but lots of slots, dropping down to smaller LRM-5's would greatly limit your total missile load.

For 'Mechs that have smaller missile hard points -- they'd also now have smaller ballistic and energy hard points for the most part, meaning a lot would carry a missile system just to round out its tonnage. Honestly, I'd see most of these filled with SRM's for the fact that ECM destroys the utility of carrying a single small LRM, but that's a different subject entirely.

On the subject of the Battlemaster, I said it before: Quirks for individual chassis would be a good addition, even with sized hard points. Perhaps the Battlemaster could receive laser bonuses to promote players that keep beam weapons in the torso, and keep the PPC/heat dissipation quirks the Awesome already has. A combination of quirks and sized hardpoints would work well hand in hand to promote variation between chassis/variants.

Either way, the fact that the Battlemaster being a single 'Mech that could emulate the Awesome's loadout is a lot less than any 'Mech currently that has three energy hardpoints currently can. Your second example is a great example of how there would still be a lot of customization options for players. It wouldn't really be an ultra mech by any stretch, but it would be a good design at long and medium ranges.

If the Clans got similar restrictions, they would be less affected with hard point sizes than IS 'Mechs as their single critical weapons like the ER large laser and ER medium laser could be easier to interchange. Though sized hard points could address some balance problems like massive front loading damage, it doesn't solve all balancing issues -- likely ghost heat in some form would have to stay. Maybe it could be altered, but something would need to mitigate the Clans.

To be honest, I'd really like to see 10 Clan 'Mechs vs 12 Inner Sphere 'Mechs as a balance mechanic while keeping individual Clan 'mechs more effective than their IS counterparts, but that's somewhat breaking on a tangent.

Edited by DocBach, 10 October 2014 - 05:08 PM.

[1453 R]

DocBach, on 10 October 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

Either way, the fact that the Battlemaster being a single 'Mech that could emulate the Awesome's loadout is a lot less than any 'Mech currently that has three energy hardpoints currently can. Your second example is a great example of how there would still be a lot of customization options for players. It wouldn't really be an ultra mech by any stretch, but it would be a good design at long and medium ranges.

Only for assault 'Mechs, generally, which carry large/many weapons by default. And even the Fattlemaster - one of the most flexible and versatile chassis left in the game after the Hardpoint Depression, has only really one choice it gets to make, which dictates the rest of its armament. Do you want cannons in the shoulders, or crappy IS ML batteries? If the former, you have a secondary choice of an additional cannon and heat sinks, or going with a couple of junkocannon/2s to try and ward off close attackers. If the latter, then you're effectively forced to take the pistol large and the junkocannons as the only things left that use up the weight.

Most anything under 75 tons, at least on the IS side? Hard-locked into its stock armament or some minor, superficial alterations thereof, and improved internals. Stock 'Mechs without improved internals still stink and can't compete for crap, and yet we also lose the overwhelming majority of our ability to reconfigure bad 'Mechs into passable 'Mechs by throwing out their lousy armaments and replacing them with armaments that actually function. I've harped on the Dragon plenty, but it's hardly the only 'Mech that'd just flat-out fail and fall off the world in a stock hard point system. The JagerMech? That thing's hitboxes are actually horrific, to the point where the chassis as a whole is generally considered T3 despite its oh-so-terrifying ballistics prowess. Force it to use light autocannons and thusly sit there and facetank enemy fire in order to do damage, and it'll die faster than a legged Firestarter.

Assault 'Mechs get off easy in this system, while lighter 'Mechs are generally crushed underfoot. The game is already dismayingly top-heavy as it is; restricting customization to the assault weight class by forcing everything else to stick to whatever random spread of miniscule popguns some dude settled on for it in the eighties is not doing anyone in this game any favors at all.

[occusoj]

DocBach, on 10 October 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

Going by this suggestion here:
http://mwomercs.com/...point-revision/

Oh lord no. Thats a total mess.
K2 Cat is stuck with 2 AC2 and 2 PPC. Lots of bigger mechs wont be able to pack one or even two PPC but a Jenner will? Even though it will could encounter some thermal problems, how do you explain to a Stalker he cant have the PPC while the Jenner can have two? Not enought space?
Look at the size of those things. You couldnt only stuff a PPC in a Stalker, you could cram a PPC with the Jenner its attached to in a Stalker.
Worse, even the Locust has the hardpoints for a PPC. It could even fit one. Now I have to build one.

Quote

A Trebuchet with 30 LRM's is laughed at when you can bring something with 90 LRM's. But what if in this hypothetical world, 30 LRM's is a respectable compliment of missiles that only a few other 'Mechs in the game can bring?

Then you will see exactly those few mechs and still no Trebuchet used as LRM carrier. Why go for 30 tubes if I can have a LRM60 Cat when I just want to throw some missiles?

Quote

Stock mech are "for the most part" balanced and if we all would play our Mechs stock or near to stock TTK would be less of an issue than it is now. Hell we could even get rid of Ghostheat and this stupid 1.4 DHS Bullcrap.

This is so wrong.
Just imagin your stock IS mech facing stock clan mechs in a 12v12. Is that your definition of "fun to play"?
Without GH the Nova can alpha all the lasers without exploding. Or the 4PPC WHK can unleash them all at once. So its ok to alpha 4PPCs in the WHK but not in the STK?

The often mentioned K2 would be quite tedious to play, 2xPPC with SHS and no real ballistic support. ggclose. I did that when I bought it for some matches where I couldnt afford DHS. Never again.

TTK would be even more of an issue as the Clan team would explode most IS mechs just fine while their lifetime will rise dramatically, even with current nerfs on their weapons. So what you would see is a huge decrease in variety, everyone going up against a Clan team has to use the very few remaining somewhat viable chassis.

edit: lots of typos

Edited by occusoj, 10 October 2014 - 05:17 PM.

[Jack Corban]

occusoj, on 10 October 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Oh lord no. Thats a total mess.
K2 Cat is stuck with 2 AC2 and 2 PPC. Lots of bigger mechs wont be able to pack one or even two PPC but a Jenner will? Even though it will could encounter some thermal problems, how do you explain to a Stalker he cant have the PPC while the Jenner can have two? Not enought space?
Look at the size of those things. You couldnt only stuff a PPC in a Stalker, you could cram a PPC with the Jenner its attached to in a Stalker.
Worse, even the Locust has the hardpoints for a PPC. It could even fit one. Now I have to build one.



Then you will see exactly those few mechs and still no Trebuchet used as LRM carrier. Why go for 30 tubes if I can have a LRM60 Cat when I just want to throw some missiles?


This is so wrong.
Just imagin your stock IS mech facing stock clan mechs in a 12v12. Is that your definition of "fun to play"?
Without GH the Nova can alpha all the lasers without exploding. Or the 4PPC WHK can unleash them all at once. So its ok to alpha 4PPCs in the WHK but not in the STK?

The often mentioned K2 would be quite tedious to play, 2xPPC with SHS and no real ballistic support. ggclose. I did that when I bought it for some matches where I couldnt afford DHS. Never again.

TTK would be even more of an issue as the Clan team would explode most IS mechs just fine while their lifetime will rise dramatically, even with current nerfs on their weapons. So what you would see is a huge decrease in variety, everyone going up against a Clan team has to use the very few remaining somewhat viable chassis.

edit: lots of typos

Oh jesus play Stock Mechs in the events i posted and stop assuming.

[Roland]

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Oh, for...!

Restricting 'Mechs from taking larger weapons than their stock configuration allows IS WHAT SIZED HARDPOINTS MEANS.

No.

It means that hardpoints have size restrictions.

It does not require that those hardpoints be limited to the size of the weapons originally held by them in the stock configuration.

[DocBach]

Lets compare another heavy IS 'Mech to the example Jagermech, which as you said become completely subpar to other heavies. I'll go under 75 tons since you said that 'Mechs under 75 tons would have useless configurations;

I start with the 1X Cataphract, a 'Mech you don't really see at all since the 3D can do what it can do, plus jump. We'll use the hardpoint restrictions where you can put as many weapons as slots PGI has already decided, but that are the same size or smaller than the original equipment so we don't have to argue about if certain 'Mechs can have larger items than they currently have (which I think they should in many cases to not totally extinct certain builds or to buff lackluster 'Mechs):

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...244a239ea375ef5

Yep, I kept it pretty similar to the stock configuration -- The PPC gets upgraded to ER, the AC/10 is swapped for a Gauss. This gives me pretty respectable long range FLD, something that can't really be done in the game on too many chassis anymore. Though I can't jump like the 3D PPC/Gauss combo could, I at least have my big guns on the same side so I can shield with my left arm, and fire both my big guns peeking around cover.

Maybe I want to try to emulate that laser vomit build I saw my idol competitive player use, but I don't have the $30 to buy a Clan 'Mech with MC. Maybe I could try to build something similar like this?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2e4da0b827a316c

Now, perhaps I don't like being ground bound. Currently in the game, I can just pick the 3D, and not only do anything that a 1X can do, I can do it better since I have two ballistic slots so I could do two Gauss rifles with a PPC if I so wanted to. Not anymore. In trade off for the ability to jump, which gives me more mobility and the ability to shoot from behind cover vertically as well as around cover, I sacrifice customization options and the ability to FLD damage as much as the 1X variant and use something like this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d32173863de1dde

The point is, if I want the jumping ability of the 3D, I have to determine -- is it worth losing the ability to put out more damage up front? Am I comfortable with having to use four small energy weapons where I could use larger ones if I give up the ability to jump for something like the 1X?

Edited by DocBach, 10 October 2014 - 05:40 PM.

[DocBach]

occusoj, on 10 October 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

Worse, even the Locust has the hardpoints for a PPC. It could even fit one. Now I have to build one.

Then you will see exactly those few mechs and still no Trebuchet used as LRM carrier. Why go for 30 tubes if I can have a LRM60 Cat when I just want to throw some missiles?

There would have to be balance passes with that system, or any other system that completely redesigned the game. The Locust would ironically be one of the only light 'Mechs to mount a PPC.

As for the Catapult, I think the most LRM's it could carry would be 50, if you swap the LRM-20's for an LRM-15 and 10 in each arm. However, unlike the Trebuchet, the Catapult wouldn't be able to carry as many Artemis missiles, as it comes with the upgrade for it in its variant, making that Trebuchet one of the best Artemis missile platforms in the game, a defined niche that would give it much more utility than it currently has in the game.

The A1 Catapult would likely be worthless as anything other than a splat cat; it'd probably need hardpoint size revisions to make it useful.

Edited by DocBach, 10 October 2014 - 05:48 PM.

[occusoj]

Quote

Oh jesus play Stock Mechs in the events i posted and stop assuming.

Sorry, I thought you stated that TTK would be less of a problem if we all ran near stock and GH could be ditched. That would be totally off of course. Must have misread it.
Id like to participate in a stock match if there is clan vs. is. I dont like mixed matches much.

In Solo queue its not that bad to play stock, even I have racked up about 1200 dmg and 5 kills in a trial vic there. Given the right team and opponents its no big deal, Ive seen better pilots go a good deal higher than that in trial stuff.

Quote

As for the Catapult, I think the most LRM's it could carry would be 50, if you swap the LRM-20's for an LRM-15 and 10 in each arm. The A1 would likely be worthless as anything other than a splat cat; it'd probably need hardpoint size revisions to make it useful.

The A1 should be able to fit what the tubecount states. 20,10,10 per arm. Providing the tubes but not the hardpoints sounds quite strange to me. Still, LRM50 is better than what most others could do.

[DocBach]

occusoj, on 10 October 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

The A1 should be able to fit what the tubecount states. 20,10,10 per arm. Providing the tubes but not the hardpoints sounds quite strange to me. Still, LRM50 is better than what most others could do.

An LRM-50 would be one of the largest missile platforms in the game. The Catapult would be good at its job.

[IceSerpent]

1453 R, on 10 October 2014 - 04:08 PM, said:

And the rest of us are chattering idiots with no idea what we're doing or talking about who should just listen to our betters, right?

Half a dozen people have been telling you that we are not proposing running stock-only builds over 17 pages of posts, yet you are still running with "no, y'all are lying, you want to secretly sneak in stock-only restriction" argument - you tell us whether you know what you're talking about or not.

Quote

You cannot remove ninety-nine out of a hundred builds from the hangars of every single player of MWO and expect them to shrug it off with a "Meh. I can deal. Especially since it wouldn't fix any of the problems Ghost Heat sets out to fix anyways and thus WE'D HAVE TO KEEP GHOST HEAT, TOO.

Will it take another 17 pages for us to convince you that purpose of both systems is to prevent the same exact thing and therefore one replaces the other with absolutely no need to keep both?

[Ultimax]

DocBach, on 10 October 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Lets compare another heavy IS 'Mech to the example Jagermech, which as you said become completely subpar to other heavies.

I know the other poster said that, but IS side my firm opinion is that the Jagermech is only below one other heavy - and that's the CTF-3D.

That's not saying much because the CTF-3D is T1. It's better than most other Cataphracts - and the only reason that is the case is because it has JJs. Otherwise it would be T3 or maybe even 4 with the rest of them.

Most Jagers on the other hand are easily better than or equal to most Cataphracts.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 10 October 2014 - 06:44 PM.