102 replies to this topic

[Uncl Munkeh]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

And what about Clan players? Can't take 2 Daishis, since there aren't any Clan 20-tonners yet. Even after the Koshi goes live, that's still 10 tons overweight if you bring a pair of those. Make it 250 and at least then Clan players can do the 2x Daishi, 2x Koshi drop.

Contesting Clan units should have to bid down to make a drop. Let's un-nerf the clan mechs and enforce a tonnage bidding process that looks more like the genre.

OR, if they take full weight, a negative % to any win, going positive ++ every 25 tons they drop.

[Johnny Z]

Naduk, on 09 October 2014 - 03:39 PM, said:

great idea
then we can ignore the results of both polls and go back to the way it was first setup because a select few manage the moan loud enough that its not what they want and dont care how much their desires ruin the game for everyone else


LOL
thats some cute justification rational you got there

i could bombard you with the other 99% of Sarna.net that states the quality of the IS and how lights and mediums are the most common units on the field for the majority of forces
cost and ease of production makes it so
but i dont need to because i know you have seen it
you already know how rare and Atlas is supposed to be, like wise for most things above 65tons

the precedence for how its supposed to be played fyi
comes direct from the devs , who up until recently were going to enforce 1 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy, 1 assault
now its 240 tons total over 4 mechs, so basically the same but now allowing for min max scenarios to play out more often
PGI draw their inspiration from table top and as you very well know table top states that mediums are the most common units
thus the OP and supporters of this concept want something to encourage more use of the most common units

Yep I have to agree. Although I think mediums will have a strong showing with the 240 cap.

In Rl the biggest drawback to assault weight vehicle isnt cost, its mobility. Super heavy tanks get stuck and useless in many conditions. Mediums are the best tanks to have without a doubt in 90% of situations. But super heavy tanks have their place.

[Timuroslav]

Fighting 24 Dirwolves and 24 ECM MASC Fire Moths still = Not Fun.
Assault mechs are supposed to be rare, and this is Community Warfare based on the Lore.

Medium mechs are the most common and used.
Let Medium mechs have one dominant Game mode; considering Heavy's and Assaults are the dominant mechs for Skirmish, Assault, and Conquest.

I don't want Pugs rushing Assault mechs as Lone Wolves, it's supposed to be Faction versus Faction. Not PUGS+1

[Tristan Winter]

Kirkland Langue, on 09 October 2014 - 03:43 PM, said:

[/size]
This 240-ton thing actually makes MM easier. You don't have to worry about the weight classes at all, every player is equal weight class irregardless of what mechs they bring.

I know, that's my point. But a lot of people are asking for the ability to field 4 Timber Wolves, for example. Well, then you need to come up with an alternative. There's no way matchmaker can balance 48 mechs per team properly, the way things are right now. So people who want the freedom to play whatever mech they want, need to think about a system that would actually work. Not just blurt out "but mah Dire Wolf!"

[KraftySOT]

Well PGI made the call to let you buy whatever you want with no progression other than skills. Thats cool because its not pay to win...but it also means there was no reason not to take your cadet bonus, buy an assault, and ignore lights and mediums ever existed.

You cant hamfist people into playing stuff they dont want to play, and the moment for making everyone go through lights and mediums to get to heavy and assaults has passed.

All you can do now, is provide more bait to play them. Quirks will hopefully help.

If in a month or two the queue still looks like this, then quirks didnt go far enough and you gotta make them more potent. Failing that. Then they can look at other ideas.

[Timuroslav]

KraftySOT, on 09 October 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

Well PGI made the call to let you buy whatever you want with no progression other than skills. Thats cool because its not pay to win...but it also means there was no reason not to take your cadet bonus, buy an assault, and ignore lights and mediums ever existed.

You cant hamfist people into playing stuff they dont want to play, and the moment for making everyone go through lights and mediums to get to heavy and assaults has passed.

All you can do now, is provide more bait to play them. Quirks will hopefully help.

If in a month or two the queue still looks like this, then quirks didnt go far enough and you gotta make them more potent. Failing that. Then they can look at other ideas.

While I agree with you to a large extent. There is still one big flaw in your argument.
Assaults will always have more weapon hard points and armor because of that they are the go to mechs. Also it does not help that Assault mechs and Heavy mechs are the Rockstars of the Lore world.
What quirks would balance that out, would have to be similar to making medium Mechs Spiderman and Iron Man climbing walls and pull-vaulting buildings.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Timuroslav, on 09 October 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

MASC Fire Moths

What is this MASC of which you speak

Timuroslav, on 09 October 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

of the Lore world.

This Btech is missing mechs for no lore reason. the lore here is very thin

This game is so very loosely based in Btech, IMO its hard to make lore based arguments really

[Deathlike]

WarHippy, on 09 October 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

240 is pretty much fine for you but not others, and yeah 300 probably is too much as 240 is too little.
Needing to master two classes is a fine ideal for the most part, but limiting it in such a way that in order to take assaults you also have to master their polar opposite seems stingy. As does not making that a requirement for any other class. So long as the requirement is to bring 4 mechs it really needs to be somewhere in the 250-265 range.

TBH, we're pretty much playing what amounts of AssaultWarrior. While I personally don't care about the tonnage limit, if everyone is allowed to take a generous tonnage amount, it would reinforce that notion of AssaultWarrior. The more tonnage available, the more Timberwolves, Dire Wolves, or whatever people most whine about are going to be played.

There needs to be a set of choices made here to not make each CW match one dimensional... even though most of the top players/units will optimize it to death. It's not going to be an enjoyable CW if I could field 4 Timberwolves... the mech that's probably complained about the most... next to the Dire Wolf.

Sometimes balance on both ends have to be made, so that the outcome isn't strictly decided by the optimal choices.

[Alek Ituin]

Asmudius Heng, on 09 October 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

The problem is CW is not about grinding .... or it should not be.

Encouraging people to go in underweight and LOSE but gain a nice amount of cash means your faction loses the planet. This is not what CW is about.

There needs to be a system of logistics on a faction level that could determine restrictions - people in canon did not take a crappy second line mech because they wanted to if they have a better option available.

Except C-Bills run an army. You don't just magically conjure up Mechs, ammo, fuel, food, parts, equipment, and general supplies.

You want logistics? Here's some logistics: Each Dropship has a base cost of 220 million C-Bills. Lets assume they're Union class DropShips, so 14 crew. Crew costs for 14 people are lets say... 100k per person per year, totaling 1.4 million C-Bills per year, or 350k C-Bills per season. Maintenance will have to be done after every drop, overhauls every month or so, and daily maintenance is required to keep the ship running. Lets say drop maintenance is 5 million per drop, overhauls 25-50 million, and daily maintenance sucks up 50k per day. Then there's fuel, which for a Union class is about 215 tons which is good for (rounded) 117 days, or 1.8 tons of fuel per day, and lets be nice and make fuel 10k per ton (18k of fuel burned per day).

Now for Mechs! Here's some basic Mech logistics: Lets start with a stock Hunchback 4G. It mounts 10 tons of armor and 2 tons of AC ammo, and that'll need replacing. So assuming standard armor, that's 10k C-Bills per ton of armor (32 points using doubled TT values), or 312.5 C-Bills per point, totaling 100k C-Bills in armor. AC/20 ammo should be about 10k per ton, so that's 20k in ammo right there. And then we have the equipment, which is bound to get destroyed - AC/20, 2x MLas, 1x SLas, STD 200 engine, and 13 STD Heat Sinks. The total cost for which is 1,629,850 C-Bills (using TT and MWO prices). Then we need to take in to account monthly overhauls, weekly maintenance, and daily maintenance, which should be around 750k, 100k, and 10k respectively taking in to account what that may entail. Not to mention pilot pay, which for the level of job hazard, stress, required skill, and required training, should be about 250k C-Bills per year (20k per month, rounded). Lets assume for simplicity that our Hunchy loses one arm (with MLas), 5 tons of armor, and fires both tons of AC/20 ammo each battle, which gives us a battle maintenance cost of 110k C-Bills (not counting replacement arm). Lets assume every battle goes this way for even more simplicity.


Monthly costs for running a DropShip: 37,157,000 C-Bills per month (assuming 6 drops)
Monthly costs for running a single Hunchback: 2,130,000 C-Bills per month (assuming 6 battles)
Monthly costs for running a Lance of Hunchbacks: 8,520,000 C-Bills per month (assuming 6 battles)
Monthly costs for running a Company of Hunchbacks: 25,560,000 C-Bills per month (assuming 6 battles)

Now lets look at global costs. Assuming a respectably large corp, running only Hunchbacks, we're looking at maybe 4 DropShips and a full Company for each. Each month, that corp would have to pay 148,628,000 C-Bills in DropShip costs, and 102,240,000 C-Bills in Mech costs (for a total of 250,868,000 C-Bills). Skyrocket the Mech costs for Assaults, drop them for Lights, either way it's a staggering amount of money in just Mechs. DropShips also incur a 220M C-Bill starting cost, requiring our corp to cough up 880,000,000 C-Bills to start.

This is logistics. This is basic logistics boiling everything down neatly to keep it simple. Needless to say, Quartermaster Sim 2k14 would not be a best-seller.


Just saying, it'd be easier to reward players for behaving canonically than to just shove everything behind a gate of logistics.

[Asmudius Heng]

Cbills are tied to grinding.

The more time a person has, or the money real life money they invest the less they care about anything based around cbills.

Balance it for them and you create a disenfranchised underclass of people who cannot compete.

Balance for the low level players and the high level players feel no bite of any restrictions.

Cbills are no an economy - they are an eternal spring of cash designed to drive the grind of the game which F2P games need to exist.

Cbills as they stand are NOT the way to work in a logistics system.

Logistics needs to be something set at a faction level that is fair for all players. Those with more cbills just get to have more OPTIONS because they have more and better mechs.

[Deathlike]

Here's a thought. I like Asmudius Heng's idea of different weights on different planets. This could be expanded upon and be made more flexible.

While this does not properly create role warfare, you CAN make taking certain planets be incentive based. Let's say that some planets allow for a bigger or smaller tonnage weights. For picking a planet that has a greater tonnage weight, the costs and rewards are less due to obvious logical issues (bigger mechs needs bigger dropships) and while not optimal as any sort of balance mechanic, those that prefer to run bigger mechs get greater "flexibility" while those that run smaller mechs get greater "rewards". It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than a fixed restriction for each match.

Edited by Deathlike, 09 October 2014 - 04:50 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

Few more reactions to things posted in this thread:
1. Bidding for clan teams - If the bonus is given on an individual basis, the result would be individuals dropping with only a single mech, or maybe 2, to get the bonus if their team won... but because a LOT of people would be under-dropping, their teams would get crushed and then Clan players would cry about how "everyone else is underdropping so it is impossible to win". Bidding really only works if you drop as a 12-man that can coordinate the dropdeck.

2. Different weight's for different planets - This sounds like the beginning of a good idea which would need to be fleshed out after the first season, so people can see how things actually play out. Without a doubt, people will want variation upon the planets, and this could be one of the variables.

3. "It's a good thing that everyone can jut pick whatever mechs they want without grinding". I disagree. In fact, I would say that this line of thinking is probably the biggest mistake that PGI made during development of the game. Players should have started in light mechs and had to grind up to get to assaults. It's not worth arguing about - but you'd have a difficult time convincing me that the current system is better. (I look to the WOT tiers, look to this game, and it's abundantly clear which model is better)

Edited by Kirkland Langue, 09 October 2014 - 05:09 PM.

[Ph30nix]

Colby Boucher, on 09 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

They said that they would adjust it if they felt it necessary.

Although it WOULD be cool if bringing a 100-ton assault-class Battlemech meant not bringing anything else but, say, a commando. And yeah, being allowed to bring 4 heavies is silly. If they make the tonnage restrictions much harsher they could really bring back the idea that a mech like the Commando is useful because it's "cheap", or in this case very light. Because let's face it, an assault mech in the hands of an experienced pilot will completely wipe the floor compared to a light mech. Granted, the light has a chance of winning 1 on 1, but the Assult has a much greater chance of affecting the outcome of a match.

I say put the tonnage restriction at 150 tonnes. Longevity in battle (fielding lights / mediums) vs. single-mech performance.

i can be just as deadly if not more so on my Death Knell as i am in my direwolf. as long as i dont play like an idiot....

[Asmudius Heng]

Ph30nix, on 09 October 2014 - 05:19 PM, said:

i can be just as deadly if not more so on my Death Knell as i am in my direwolf. as long as i dont play like an idiot....

So you can play like an idiot in a Dire Wolf and get away with it?

Does the Daishi require less skill to be effective?

If you are saying i can be good in a mech, i just need to play better this means that mech is inferior because you simply need to be BETTER to use it well.

[Valore]

Hilarious reading about all the players who are crying about being 'forced' to pilot a mech.

The enemy is at the gates. They're smashing down the final bastion, and are coming to send you packing off the planet, losing you crucial resources and forcing you into bitter defeat.

You rush to the hangar, neurohelmet in hand, scrambling for whatever is available to help hold back a tide. Hopefully they'll have something to replace your Atlas that fell in the last skirmish.

The tech you meet looks hassled and seems about to make a run for the evac drop point.

'I'm sorry sir. All we have left is a Jenner.'

You go pale, and anger rushes to your head. Throwing your neurohelmet to the ground, you start stamping your feel, yelling like a little child who discovers his sweet shop is out of his favourite type of candy.

'BUT I DON'T WANT TO PILOT A LIGHT!!!'

------

Yeah okay. We'll take that planet then.

[KraftySOT]

Timuroslav, on 09 October 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

While I agree with you to a large extent. There is still one big flaw in your argument.
Assaults will always have more weapon hard points and armor because of that they are the go to mechs. Also it does not help that Assault mechs and Heavy mechs are the Rockstars of the Lore world.
What quirks would balance that out, would have to be similar to making medium Mechs Spiderman and Iron Man climbing walls and pull-vaulting buildings.

Of the LORE world.

But I challenge you to a Locust vs Atlas match in Megamek. We'll see how awesome 100 tons is when your to hits are all over 12 while im pelting you for 30 straight turns with a medium laser.

The issue with lights being bad in our environment is that they have none of their advantages from the TT other than a lag shield. Moving 16 hexes and ending in a heavy woods cant happen. You cant stay perpetually in someones rear arc no matter what mech they pilot.

No one wants one because they die easily, and cant kill anything.

In the TT, even in the lore...ill happily take 10,000 bv worth of locusts vs whatever in the hell youve got. Youre swamped as locusts do 6 damage kicks to you with impunity.

Beyond quirks, I have no idea how you make lights and mediums more attractive without altering the aiming system to help them out. Make them REALLY small I guess? Up their speeds dramatically?

But yeah light and medium quirks are going to have to be REALLY powerful for us to see more light and medium usage.

And of course itll usually be based around a stock build...however since those mechs saw no use before, a pigeon holed use is better than not at all.

Basically youre going to have to make lights firepower as good as mediums, and mediums be able to take the beatings of heavies..

Edited by KraftySOT, 09 October 2014 - 06:06 PM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Deathlike, on 09 October 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Here's a thought. I like Asmudius Heng's idea of different weights on different planets. This could be expanded upon and be made more flexible.

While this does not properly create role warfare, you CAN make taking certain planets be incentive based. Let's say that some planets allow for a bigger or smaller tonnage weights. For picking a planet that has a greater tonnage weight, the costs and rewards are less due to obvious logical issues (bigger mechs needs bigger dropships) and while not optimal as any sort of balance mechanic, those that prefer to run bigger mechs get greater "flexibility" while those that run smaller mechs get greater "rewards". It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than a fixed restriction for each match.

Russ just confirmed on Twitter they have the ability to change tonnage restrictions on a planet vs Planet Basis but it will not be implemented into the beta season.

So good news its on the roadmap

[KraftySOT]

In my dream world....light mechs act like Titanfall mechs mostly, while as you get heavier, you get more lumbering warmachines. But that would require a AAA team and a brand new engine.

Asmudius Heng, on 09 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Russ just confirmed on Twitter they have the ability to change tonnage restrictions on a planet vs Planet Basis but it will not be implemented into the beta season.

So good news its on the roadmap

Thats very cool to know.

[Deathlike]

Asmudius Heng, on 09 October 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Russ just confirmed on Twitter they have the ability to change tonnage restrictions on a planet vs Planet Basis but it will not be implemented into the beta season.

So good news its on the roadmap

Links or it didn't happen.

[DocBach]

Deathlike, on 09 October 2014 - 04:49 PM, said:

Here's a thought. I like Asmudius Heng's idea of different weights on different planets. This could be expanded upon and be made more flexible.

While this does not properly create role warfare, you CAN make taking certain planets be incentive based. Let's say that some planets allow for a bigger or smaller tonnage weights. For picking a planet that has a greater tonnage weight, the costs and rewards are less due to obvious logical issues (bigger mechs needs bigger dropships) and while not optimal as any sort of balance mechanic, those that prefer to run bigger mechs get greater "flexibility" while those that run smaller mechs get greater "rewards". It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than a fixed restriction for each match.

They did that in MPBT 3025. It did change up the feeling of the matches for different planets. Some drops were very light, others more heavy. It helped switch stuff up a lot, you'd see more of different weight classes than if players could just choose the heaviest 'Mech and whatnot.