Is it a stupid idea to allow complete customization for mechs? Because I think it is.
I recall it's Russ's idea and I'm curious what he thinks of it now. It's been used and abused to the point of almost breaking the game a couple of times - LRMpocalypse, 6xPPC Stalker, poptarts, Gaussboats, etc. Then PGI was forced to develop a bunch of countering methods, adding ghost heat, JJ heatsink-lock, tweaking those long-range weapons over and over and over again, and people still manages to min-max things to hell and back.
It would be great - and would have probably saved PGI a lot of time - if they had hardpoint restrictions that caps the weapon class based on the default loadout. A stock-MLas hardpoint could not load anything larger than MPL or LL, but not LPL or PPC. A stock MG hardpoint could load nothing more than an AC2. Or more simply, cap the weight per section based on stock loadout.
I certainly hope their next MW game would implement that. Min-maxing is boring. And unfair too, but mostly boring.
1
Is Mwo's Customization Overdone?
Started by Hex Pallett, Oct 04 2014 12:36 PM
14 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 04 October 2014 - 05:54 PM
Welcome to 2012.
Unfortunately, the game's already in a mature state, and sweeping changes to core mechanics are not likely to happen, nor should they happen.
Unfortunately, the game's already in a mature state, and sweeping changes to core mechanics are not likely to happen, nor should they happen.
#3
Posted 04 October 2014 - 08:34 PM
Vassago Rain, on 04 October 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:
Welcome to 2012.
Unfortunately, the game's already in a mature state, and sweeping changes to core mechanics are not likely to happen, nor should they happen.
Unfortunately, the game's already in a mature state, and sweeping changes to core mechanics are not likely to happen, nor should they happen.
Which is why I said
Helmstif, on 04 October 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:
I certainly hope their next MW game would implement that.
PGI, you got me hooked to a franchise to the degree of hoping for a sequel. Don't screw it up! Please!
#4
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Posted 05 October 2014 - 05:58 AM
Why ?
Giving the player the ability to mount 6 ER-PPCs on a mech and then create a game mechanic that penalize the use of more than 2 PPCs is state of the art game design, isn't ?
I hope they use those kind of fixes more often.
For example ECM: a team with many ECM mechs won't appear on the minimap and is able to flank without being noticed.
How to fix: remove the all the mech icons from the minimap, so that teams without ECM have the same benefit.
Giving the player the ability to mount 6 ER-PPCs on a mech and then create a game mechanic that penalize the use of more than 2 PPCs is state of the art game design, isn't ?
I hope they use those kind of fixes more often.
For example ECM: a team with many ECM mechs won't appear on the minimap and is able to flank without being noticed.
How to fix: remove the all the mech icons from the minimap, so that teams without ECM have the same benefit.
#5
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Posted 05 October 2014 - 06:09 AM
Alreech, on 05 October 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:
Why ?
Giving the player the ability to mount 6 ER-PPCs on a mech and then create a game mechanic that penalize the use of more than 2 PPCs is state of the art game design, isn't ?
I hope they use those kind of fixes more often.
For example ECM: a team with many ECM mechs won't appear on the minimap and is able to flank without being noticed.
How to fix: remove the all the mech icons from the minimap, so that teams without ECM have the same benefit.
Giving the player the ability to mount 6 ER-PPCs on a mech and then create a game mechanic that penalize the use of more than 2 PPCs is state of the art game design, isn't ?
I hope they use those kind of fixes more often.
For example ECM: a team with many ECM mechs won't appear on the minimap and is able to flank without being noticed.
How to fix: remove the all the mech icons from the minimap, so that teams without ECM have the same benefit.
You talk like people look at their radar to see if they are being flanked or for other stuff...
#6
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Posted 06 October 2014 - 01:26 AM
mechwarrior was always like that in the good old days.
Mechcommander
MW 2
MW 3
Mechcommander
MW 2
MW 3
#7
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Posted 06 October 2014 - 11:37 AM
RadioKies, on 05 October 2014 - 06:09 AM, said:
You talk like people look at their radar to see if they are being flanked or for other stuff...
No, they don't look on their radar because all MWO Players (expect us two) are stupid.
So you agree PGI should get rid of the Minimap to nerf ECM ?
#8
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Posted 06 October 2014 - 11:43 AM
Helmstif, on 04 October 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:
Is it a stupid idea to allow complete customization for mechs? Because I think it is.
We don't have complete customization of mechs. We have hardpoint limits and types.
Edited by Heffay, 06 October 2014 - 11:43 AM.
#9
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Posted 06 October 2014 - 02:10 PM
Allowing complete customization isn't the issue, especially since there isn't complete due to limitation of weapon types per chassis, etc. Possibly what needs to be done is to slightly tweak the available slots in specific positions to prevent slotting too many of these weapons that might "break" the balance. You know, the Jager having one arm with one too few critical slots to add a second AC20 or gauss, that sort of thing. It could end up being sort of a "quirk" thing where each chassis might be able to hold slightly different weapons and number of equipped slots per part.
It wouldn't have been any more difficult than the ghost heat and other fixes that were added and might have kept a wide variety of customizations whithout seeming arbitrary. The biggest problem would end up being somehow balancing the possible chassis builds as it will always be impossible to forsee that one "uber" build that someone it going to discover.
It wouldn't have been any more difficult than the ghost heat and other fixes that were added and might have kept a wide variety of customizations whithout seeming arbitrary. The biggest problem would end up being somehow balancing the possible chassis builds as it will always be impossible to forsee that one "uber" build that someone it going to discover.
#10
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Posted 07 October 2014 - 12:38 AM
Removal of the minimap would be something I'd like to see. That way I can finally shoot downwards with Jagers and other mechs, and while we're talking about Jagers...
Why yes, after the ******** nerfs to AC20 projectile speed and AC range nerf that hit the AC20 the most lets nerf the Jager! If you take out one arm the Jager has only 1 AC20 left, thats less firepower than a Blackjack has. Also to run Dual AC20's or dual Gauss you need to give up on a lot. Nobody is talking about the dual gauss cat K2. Don't forget that if you fire both AC20's you get so much ghostheat you'll instant overheat on maps like TerraTherma. So if the dual AC20 doesn't kill you, you'll have a overheated easy to hit Jager in front of you. Take the time, blast away the cockpit, or one of the 3 torso parts, because he will be running a XL to fit those guns. Thats another thing, a Jager is easy to hit, the cockpit is quite low so the user needs to show quite a bit of mech to see something over a hill. It takes a good JM6 pilot to carry dual AC20's these days.
A single AC20 is next to useless atm. What do you suppose to run on a Jager when you place one AC20. If you place some other type AC in the other arm you'll have problems with carrying diffirent kinds of ammo on a mech that already has problems with tonnage for ammo. Did I mention the AC40/dual-gauss Jagers carry a verry low amount of ammo with them? After 4 to 6 minutes of gametime my ammo reserves are empty. Also did I mention that weapon convergence on this mech is a {Dezgra}? i.e. if you shoot a Raven standing right in front of you closer than 150meters you'll never hit the same spot and might even miss with both cannons because it can't converge it's weapnons that close.
And may I remind you, that in Lore you have Jagermech variants like these:
JM6-DG dual gauss, dual ER MLaser
In MWO you can't mount dual gauss, 2 med lasers and still have some speed and/or carry spare ammo.. because of weight issue's. Try to build a gauss/ac40 jager in smurfy and see for yourself.
Yes, you still can do matches like these, like I did yesterday night:
http://i.imgur.com/DbxnkAf.jpg
but it takes patience, strategy, situational awareness and maybe a Seismic sensor combined with radar deprevation (and luck, who are you fighting). For every round like that there are multiple rounds that you don't get near that result. Also, check out that Awesome. Plz nerf the Awesome. An ECM Raven 3L with dual LLasers is more dangerous than a AC40Jager. In the Raven I consistently scored way more kills/assists/dmg. The weekend tournament was better to do in the Raven than my trusty Jager.
If I see an AC40 Jager on my team, most of the time I sigh.. because they mostly suck. I wished people started screencapping the endgame screen to show that indeed AC40 Jagers dominate kills.
tl;dr
Calling dual gauss/AC40Jager build über... lrn2play.
TVMA Doc, on 06 October 2014 - 02:10 PM, said:
You know, the Jager having one arm with one too few critical slots to add a second AC20 or gauss, that sort of thing.
Why yes, after the ******** nerfs to AC20 projectile speed and AC range nerf that hit the AC20 the most lets nerf the Jager! If you take out one arm the Jager has only 1 AC20 left, thats less firepower than a Blackjack has. Also to run Dual AC20's or dual Gauss you need to give up on a lot. Nobody is talking about the dual gauss cat K2. Don't forget that if you fire both AC20's you get so much ghostheat you'll instant overheat on maps like TerraTherma. So if the dual AC20 doesn't kill you, you'll have a overheated easy to hit Jager in front of you. Take the time, blast away the cockpit, or one of the 3 torso parts, because he will be running a XL to fit those guns. Thats another thing, a Jager is easy to hit, the cockpit is quite low so the user needs to show quite a bit of mech to see something over a hill. It takes a good JM6 pilot to carry dual AC20's these days.
A single AC20 is next to useless atm. What do you suppose to run on a Jager when you place one AC20. If you place some other type AC in the other arm you'll have problems with carrying diffirent kinds of ammo on a mech that already has problems with tonnage for ammo. Did I mention the AC40/dual-gauss Jagers carry a verry low amount of ammo with them? After 4 to 6 minutes of gametime my ammo reserves are empty. Also did I mention that weapon convergence on this mech is a {Dezgra}? i.e. if you shoot a Raven standing right in front of you closer than 150meters you'll never hit the same spot and might even miss with both cannons because it can't converge it's weapnons that close.
And may I remind you, that in Lore you have Jagermech variants like these:
JM6-DG dual gauss, dual ER MLaser
In MWO you can't mount dual gauss, 2 med lasers and still have some speed and/or carry spare ammo.. because of weight issue's. Try to build a gauss/ac40 jager in smurfy and see for yourself.
Yes, you still can do matches like these, like I did yesterday night:
http://i.imgur.com/DbxnkAf.jpg
but it takes patience, strategy, situational awareness and maybe a Seismic sensor combined with radar deprevation (and luck, who are you fighting). For every round like that there are multiple rounds that you don't get near that result. Also, check out that Awesome. Plz nerf the Awesome. An ECM Raven 3L with dual LLasers is more dangerous than a AC40Jager. In the Raven I consistently scored way more kills/assists/dmg. The weekend tournament was better to do in the Raven than my trusty Jager.
If I see an AC40 Jager on my team, most of the time I sigh.. because they mostly suck. I wished people started screencapping the endgame screen to show that indeed AC40 Jagers dominate kills.
tl;dr
Calling dual gauss/AC40Jager build über... lrn2play.
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Posted 08 October 2014 - 10:06 AM
Helmstif, on 04 October 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:
Is it a stupid idea to allow complete customization for mechs? Because I think it is.
It is a bad idea; pgi didn't quite go the full constructions rules route, but they've gone close enough. It's fun for a little while, but when things get remotely serious all side-creativity is pushed out for the best build of the patch; and when you've been doing it for any extended amount of time, doing the same min-maxing routinely gets boring. There gets to be very little reason to do the same thing over and over again with ... a new chassis.
Restrictions are necessary for FUN in the 'mechlab. Otherwise, you wind up with visually differing gunbags, ala MW3. MWO isn't that bad, but it would have been made better by not only typing the weapons slots, but by sizing them too. Muck about in SSW long enough and you quickly realize how boring it can get.
IMO, things that shouldn't be changeable in any MW video game: internal structure; engine size and type, cockpit, acutator layout (omni arm changes only .... the ppc/gauss thing), putting stealth armor on a 'mech that didn't come with it from the factory, neither should you be able to pull a weapon out and put a differing type where it was (pull out a gauss and put non-ballistic weapons where it was)... and the weapons HARD points should be set in size by what was in them. Weapons shouldn't go where weapons weren't already mounted. Rear mounted weapons should stay rear-mounted, front to front too. Things like heatsinks and ammo should be free to mess with ... and some possiblity of also an "electronics only" hardpoint for things like ecm, beagle, targeting computers, C3, etc.
#12
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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:24 AM
Up to the end of last year (been deployed since so I won't see any changes which have happened until late this year when I start playing again) I though the game was fairly ballanced. Typically if you are getting killed quickly or what ever it is your fault. I see too many people completely exposing themselves to get a kill or kill steal and then are killed or badly damaged in the process. Lay down as much fire as you can until the risks outweight the benefit. I routinely would let an enemy go instead of chasing them down for the kill because I would be useless to my team after getting ripped apart by the enemy in doing so. You have to pick and choose when to push or hit and run.
If you have problems with sniper builds then you are spending way too much time in the open or keep popping out at the same location so the sniper is waiting for you. It isn't the sniper platform which is the problem, your playing is.
Tired of getting lrm'd to death? Stop standing in the open with no cover in front of you or stay within the ECM.
A/C 40 or srm problems? You aren't watching flanks and are letting those builds get close. Back up to keep distance and engage them at distance.
Most specialized builds like these trade off one or more of the following: speed, armor, ammo, heat dissapation, or use XL engines(isn't durable as standard).
You have one life so the "run out and fight half the team Rambo style and then complaining when you die" only sais you are a bad player. I never had problems with poptart or PPC boats. They needed range and made a lot of heat. Use cover and move when they are down to avoid being hit. Engage them at close range where they cannot be effective and over heat as they panic. Make it a priority to engage high alpha builds like a/c 40 and srm boats at range. If you can turn even a few sections orange while they are out of their range that will go a long way once they get close. I see a group of idiots behind the same bit of cover who get surrounded and killed instead of forming a fire line and focusing fire. Instead they all take turns firing around the same 2 corners and the enemy team is focused on those corners and can easily flank them. Or some idiot shooting at 700m with large lasers until they were nearly cored, at a person returning fire with a/c2 and 5's who was still fairly fresh after the exchange. Not using your loadout to its advantages and capitalizing on the enemies disadvantages, stupid pushes, and not watching the radar is why people die fast and teams fall. Situational awareness is HUGE.
If you have problems with sniper builds then you are spending way too much time in the open or keep popping out at the same location so the sniper is waiting for you. It isn't the sniper platform which is the problem, your playing is.
Tired of getting lrm'd to death? Stop standing in the open with no cover in front of you or stay within the ECM.
A/C 40 or srm problems? You aren't watching flanks and are letting those builds get close. Back up to keep distance and engage them at distance.
Most specialized builds like these trade off one or more of the following: speed, armor, ammo, heat dissapation, or use XL engines(isn't durable as standard).
You have one life so the "run out and fight half the team Rambo style and then complaining when you die" only sais you are a bad player. I never had problems with poptart or PPC boats. They needed range and made a lot of heat. Use cover and move when they are down to avoid being hit. Engage them at close range where they cannot be effective and over heat as they panic. Make it a priority to engage high alpha builds like a/c 40 and srm boats at range. If you can turn even a few sections orange while they are out of their range that will go a long way once they get close. I see a group of idiots behind the same bit of cover who get surrounded and killed instead of forming a fire line and focusing fire. Instead they all take turns firing around the same 2 corners and the enemy team is focused on those corners and can easily flank them. Or some idiot shooting at 700m with large lasers until they were nearly cored, at a person returning fire with a/c2 and 5's who was still fairly fresh after the exchange. Not using your loadout to its advantages and capitalizing on the enemies disadvantages, stupid pushes, and not watching the radar is why people die fast and teams fall. Situational awareness is HUGE.
Edited by ThorsMjolnir117, 09 October 2014 - 04:28 AM.
#13
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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:56 AM
Pht, on 08 October 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:
It is a bad idea; pgi didn't quite go the full constructions rules route, but they've gone close enough. It's fun for a little while, but when things get remotely serious all side-creativity is pushed out for the best build of the patch; and when you've been doing it for any extended amount of time, doing the same min-maxing routinely gets boring. There gets to be very little reason to do the same thing over and over again with ... a new chassis.
Restrictions are necessary for FUN in the 'mechlab. Otherwise, you wind up with visually differing gunbags, ala MW3. MWO isn't that bad, but it would have been made better by not only typing the weapons slots, but by sizing them too. Muck about in SSW long enough and you quickly realize how boring it can get.
IMO, things that shouldn't be changeable in any MW video game: internal structure; engine size and type, cockpit, acutator layout (omni arm changes only .... the ppc/gauss thing), putting stealth armor on a 'mech that didn't come with it from the factory, neither should you be able to pull a weapon out and put a differing type where it was (pull out a gauss and put non-ballistic weapons where it was)... and the weapons HARD points should be set in size by what was in them. Weapons shouldn't go where weapons weren't already mounted. Rear mounted weapons should stay rear-mounted, front to front too. Things like heatsinks and ammo should be free to mess with ... and some possiblity of also an "electronics only" hardpoint for things like ecm, beagle, targeting computers, C3, etc.
exactly those gunbags is what made MW 2 and 3 interesting. you took a chassis you liked and stuffed the weapons in you liked. Full fun. Now in MWo you probably - if you don't want to be the sandbag - have to use weapons you don't want in a mech you don't want. thats not much better.
Edited by Lily from animove, 09 October 2014 - 05:05 AM.
#14
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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:05 AM
Lily from animove, on 09 October 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:
exactly those gunbags is what made MW 2 and 3 interesting. you took a chassis you liked and stuffed the weapons in you liked. Full fun.
For the first few weeks, it's fun.
Than, once you realize that the only difference between any mech is visual outline, and that only one of a very, very, few loadouts is doable in game, because only those very top few work (all others get their teeth smashed out) and your'e down to a paper/rock/scissors/nothing else game .... it's boring. VERY boring.
#15
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Posted 09 October 2014 - 06:21 AM
Pht, on 09 October 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:
For the first few weeks, it's fun.
Than, once you realize that the only difference between any mech is visual outline, and that only one of a very, very, few loadouts is doable in game, because only those very top few work (all others get their teeth smashed out) and your'e down to a paper/rock/scissors/nothing else game .... it's boring. VERY boring.
this si currently the same? you generally choose the mech with the bets laodout possible and use it. but makign any emch possible to use anything would create more scissor rock paper possibilities as we have now. youc an run pure snipers on ALL mechs, pure brawlers or mixed on all mechs. Currentlyx, if you wanna snipe, only a few mechs can. do that. so you are currently more limited compared to the other system. also there wouldn't be useless or dead mechs because they all can be the same. Except hitboxes and hardpoint location. currently seeing mutiple TW's and DW's as standard mech on the other side isn't boring? wait for TW MC release, and we gladly get a tonnage lmited dropship, otherwise CW would have been DW, TW, SC + kitfox.
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