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Making Ppcs/erppcs Useful, And More Unique.


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#1 Valore

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 07:41 AM

Problem:

PPCs and ERPPCs right now seem like rather awkward weapons. The slowdown to projectile speeds have created a weapon that people are still trying to figure out how to use.

Furthermore, in the ERPPC's case, its now a weapon which has conflicting attributes; why have a long ranged weapon, if the projectile is so slow it'll be unlikely to hit its target anyway.

Suggested solution:

Change the weapons further, giving each a distinct niche, which will actually let them be used more.

Actual mechanic changes:

For the PPC, first off, remove the minimum range. Then reduce its range to 400/800. Reduce speed further to 750ms. Reduce heat cost to 8.

This will turn the PPC into a mid range brawling weapon.

For the ERPPC, give it a charge mechanic like the Gauss Rifle, but slightly different. When you click, the ERPPC will charge for 0.5 seconds, then automatically fire.

Increase the ERPPC projectile speed back to 1500.

The ERPPC will then return to being a viable long range weapon. If the charge mechanic proves too easy to time with gauss, increase it to 1 second accordingly and see what the result is, or alternatively reduce the projectile speed slightly.

Feel free to leave your comments, these are just thoughts off the top of my head, which I thought would at least make these two weapons which are in an awkward place at the moment somewhat usable again.

Edited by Valore, 10 October 2014 - 07:42 AM.


#2 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:18 AM

View PostValore, on 10 October 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Problem:

PPCs and ERPPCs right now seem like rather awkward weapons. The slowdown to projectile speeds have created a weapon that people are still trying to figure out how to use.

Furthermore, in the ERPPC's case, its now a weapon which has conflicting attributes; why have a long ranged weapon, if the projectile is so slow it'll be unlikely to hit its target anyway.

Suggested solution:

Change the weapons further, giving each a distinct niche, which will actually let them be used more.

Actual mechanic changes:

For the PPC, first off, remove the minimum range. Then reduce its range to 400/800. Reduce speed further to 750ms. Reduce heat cost to 8.

This will turn the PPC into a mid range brawling weapon.

For the ERPPC, give it a charge mechanic like the Gauss Rifle, but slightly different. When you click, the ERPPC will charge for 0.5 seconds, then automatically fire.

Increase the ERPPC projectile speed back to 1500.

The ERPPC will then return to being a viable long range weapon. If the charge mechanic proves too easy to time with gauss, increase it to 1 second accordingly and see what the result is, or alternatively reduce the projectile speed slightly.

Feel free to leave your comments, these are just thoughts off the top of my head, which I thought would at least make these two weapons which are in an awkward place at the moment somewhat usable again.




Just practice - you'll get it eventually :)

The same frustrations occurred when the AC20 got slowed down. Sure I'd love the original speed back, but it just takes a little time to relearn.

Edited by Fierostetz, 10 October 2014 - 08:18 AM.


#3 Xyroc

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:25 AM

View PostFierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:




Just practice - you'll get it eventually :)

The same frustrations occurred when the AC20 got slowed down. Sure I'd love the original speed back, but it just takes a little time to relearn.


Eh you seriously see ER PPC coming your way from range and dodge it like LRMs. In mechs that are more mobile at least.

Edited by Beliall, 13 October 2014 - 12:19 PM.


#4 vettie

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:25 AM

Many different threads (in the past) regarding PPC / ERPPCs.
I DO like the idea of removing the 90m restriction of the Standard PPC, OR just make it like it was, reduced damage the closer the target (scaled backwards from 10 damage).
I personally think the heat is fine.
I also think they both need a slight speed increase. Not a lot, just a bit, 150ms each maybe. I actually still use the PPC on several builds and have learned to time my shots to achieve hit (not always, but often).
I hate that it does nothing under 90. I would prefer TT rule where it could actually damage the shooter if used under 90m, maybe disable the weapon like the UAC jam mechanism, or actually damage the weapon until the weapon is eventually destroyed and/or the shooter mech takes damage like ghost heat.
I Still use ERPPC, but not as much because of the heat on certain builds. PPC / ERPPC is a classic weapon.
The PPC Family was a big part of the "meta" that caused so many issues for some, combined with gauss and JJ. Since, JJs have taken some hits on performance, gauss has the timer (would NOT want this on PPC family) and the PPC Family took a speed reduction. So now we have less jumping, fewer gauss (less the Dire Wolfs0 and fewer PPCs). Shame as some classic mechs were designed to use PPCs (Awesomes come to mind) and Jump Jets - The DFA Highlanders and gauss Rifles - Victors, Atlas, Highlanders and even some of the Heros / Champions (come with Gauss stock).
This is about PPC family. Slight increase to speed, change the 90m no damage Standard PPC to make it backwards scalar (like it previously was) or make it potentially cause self damage if used under 90m... My opinions

#5 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:26 AM

View PostBeliall, on 10 October 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:


Eh I can seriously see ER PPC coming my way from range and dodge it like LRMs.


Oh for sure - it's just an adjustment. As long as balance is influenced by people that would rather lower the bar than spend the time to learn, this is what we'll get. All we can do is adapt and overcome :)

#6 AztecD

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:27 AM

PPC/ERPPC should have more speed, i mean you already pay heat penalty's and with its slow speed its a very easy weapon to dodge long range, and its supposed to be a long range weapon.

Add more speed to projectile

#7 FupDup

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:29 AM

The most straightforward solution would be to increase their projectile speeds back up to their pre-nerf values or pretty close, and nerf their cooldown time by ~1 second.

Edited by FupDup, 10 October 2014 - 08:30 AM.


#8 Valore

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:32 AM

View PostFierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:


Oh for sure - it's just an adjustment. As long as balance is influenced by people that would rather lower the bar than spend the time to learn, this is what we'll get. All we can do is adapt and overcome :)


I think the point he and I were both trying to make, is that the ERPPC's current incarnation make it a pointless weapon.

You talked about the AC20's speed nerf, but you forget the fact that the AC20 is MEANT to be a brawler weapon, so having a slower projectile speed suits it fine.

Having a weapon that has a positive attribute (long range) that is completely nullified by its negative attribute (slow projectile speed), just makes it pointless. That's like making a sniper rifle that would only fire if its target was within 10m. What would be the point?

View PostFupDup, on 10 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

The most straightforward solution would be to increase their projectile speeds back up to their pre-nerf values or pretty close, and nerf their cooldown time by ~1 second.


I actually think they're more interesting the way they are. PPCs were nerfed in stages, now cumulating in an awkward weapon with downsides that should be completely overhauled.

ERPPCs on the other hand are completely unintuitive, as I just mentioned.

#9 Lightfoot

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:38 AM

Problem is PGI deviates from Battle Tech too much resulting in all the varied weapons turning into homogenous mush and MWO is back at brawling-only like it was in July 2012. Sure you might open up at 600-700 meters, but the mechs quickly close to brawling where bad aim is not a factor and bigger is definately better. That's not a MechWarrior simulation it's an arcade game like Quake.

The sad thing is, most MWO maps favor brawling so there is ample support for them. The way you balance the Gauss Rifles and PPCs is with longer recharge times than brawling weapons. This creates a tug-of-war between long and short range where short range will dominate long range if they can close the gap. This makes the map's terrain and the player's tactics much more pivotal than what MWO presents to players.

The more they nerf the weapons, the less thought is required from the players and the more monotonous the matches and gameplay become. And these are the nerfs like the PPC slow-down and the Gauss Rifle de-sync, which is just too complex compared to the other more powerful ACs which have no similar drawback. The correct fix for the Gauss is to just increase the recharge to be 33% more than the AC20. That gives the AC20 it's correct dominance and the Gauss Rifle it's correct long range dominance. eeewww! A MechWarrior game with long-range weapons that dominate at long range! How novel!!

Edited by Lightfoot, 10 October 2014 - 08:40 AM.


#10 Eddrick

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:44 AM

View PostFupDup, on 10 October 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

The most straightforward solution would be to increase their projectile speeds back up to their pre-nerf values or pretty close, and nerf their cooldown time by ~1 second.


One of the great things about increasing the cooldown is it has the same end result as lowing the heat they generated. They just still keep the same heat spike the moment they fire. The heat spike would have a greater effect is the heat cap was lower.

I don't really see why a cooldown over 4 seconds is viewed as unreasonable. Do, these people really have THAT little patience? A longer cooldown would give brawlers more time to close the gap on them. How is that a bad thing?

#11 Ultimax

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:44 AM

View PostFierostetz, on 10 October 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:




Just practice - you'll get it eventually :)

The same frustrations occurred when the AC20 got slowed down. Sure I'd love the original speed back, but it just takes a little time to relearn.


Neither the AC 20 nor the AC 10 cost 15 heat to fire with a range of 800m.

The ER PPC is clearly a long-ranged weapon, it is awful at brawling due to it's heat.


So saddling it with a 950m projectile speed, the same as an AC 10 intended for 450 ranges, is too much of a nerf.



For the PPC, while the speed is fine at 500m the idea that this is a mid-range brawling weapon that costs 10 heat to fire and also has a minimum usable range is just ridiculous.


Neither the AC 20 nor AC 10 cost as much heat, they do not have a minimum range and both of them have higher DPS by a considerable amount.

So their design does not justify the PPC's current speeds.




@Nerfherders (Not Fierostetz)

On the other hand, it will be quite hysterical once the Highlander & Victor are no longer nerfed and people start running these mechs frequently as they are some of the best to run AC 20 + 2x PPC combos for 40 points at brawl range.


Get ready to suck 40 damage pin point FLD alpha with near perfect projectile synch nerf herders, it coming!

#12 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:44 AM

View PostValore, on 10 October 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:


I think the point he and I were both trying to make, is that the ERPPC's current incarnation make it a pointless weapon.

You talked about the AC20's speed nerf, but you forget the fact that the AC20 is MEANT to be a brawler weapon, so having a slower projectile speed suits it fine.

Having a weapon that has a positive attribute (long range) that is completely nullified by its negative attribute (slow projectile speed), just makes it pointless. That's like making a sniper rifle that would only fire if its target was within 10m. What would be the point?



I actually think they're more interesting the way they are. PPCs were nerfed in stages, now cumulating in an awkward weapon with downsides that should be completely overhauled.

ERPPCs on the other hand are completely unintuitive, as I just mentioned.


I don't forget anything, and it isn't pointless. Like any tool, it takes time to learn, and more time to master. It's no longer useful at 1000m, that's true, but an adjustment to playstyle and repetition will go a long ways towards making it useful again. You're a founder, you should know by now to roll with the punches from PGI :) letting it get to you leads to madness!

(as this is internet conversation I'll clarify, this is all said with tongue planted firmly in cheek, with a big grin on my face. Since tone is difficult to convey online.)



#13 Kain Demos

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:49 AM

The speeds they have now are truly sad. You'd think their massive heat penalty would be enough but I guess not.

At the very minimum I'd like the Clan versions to do an actual 15 damage, not the crap they do now.

It wouldn't be a popular move for the "I hate PP damage, 'mechs should survive for 30 minutes" crowd but I don't care since the Clan weapons as a whole are far less PP than the IS selection as a whole.

#14 Clit Beastwood

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:50 AM

View PostUltimatum X, on 10 October 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:


Neither the AC 20 nor the AC 10 cost 15 heat to fire with a range of 800m.

The ER PPC is clearly a long-ranged weapon, it is awful at brawling due to it's heat.


So saddling it with a 950m projectile speed, the same as an AC 10 intended for 450 ranges, is too much of a nerf.



For the PPC, while the speed is fine at 500m the idea that this is a mid-range brawling weapon that costs 10 heat to fire and also has a minimum usable range is just ridiculous.


Neither the AC 20 nor AC 10 cost as much heat, they do not have a minimum range and both of them have higher DPS by a considerable amount.

So their design does not justify the PPC's current speeds.




@Nerfherders (Not Fierostetz)

On the other hand, it will be quite hysterical once the Highlander & Victor are no longer nerfed and people start running these mechs frequently as they are some of the best to run AC 20 + 2x PPC combos for 40 points at brawl range.


Get ready to suck 40 damage pin point FLD alpha with near perfect projectile synch nerf herders, it coming!


shhhh don't ruin the surprise!

a 733c with 2ppc ac20 is still "ok", but if the jj and twist nerfs go away... :D

#15 Mothykins

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:21 AM

PPC is pretty comfy where it is, and can be backed with Small lasers to great effect. The ERPPC for the IS is pretty bad, and the Clan one, most folks I've talked to in the Solo Que just tell you to take a Targeting Comp. Mk. IV to make it worthwhile, bumping projectile speed up to slightly over 1000m/s.

I've had it repeated to me over and over again by one specific Forumite, that We've seen fast PPCs and It was horrible and we shouldn't want that back.

The issue is we now have one viable sniping weapon that dominates, and the ERPPC, which is supposed to be a long range weapon, is pretty much neutered and worthless compared to the PPC and Large Pulse Lasers. The ERPPC trades massive heat for what? No minimum range, 50% more range and slightly faster speed. Seems pretty decent until you realize that heat is incredibly restrictive in this game, and for the same heat output and double the damage you can fire two ERLL. Yes, they're not FLPPD, but even if you hold the hitscan lasers on target for half their duration you've done the same as you'd have with an ERPPC if you actually hit normally.

Pretty much, at this point, the only thing that's WORSE than it is the AC2, and we know how much of a crap piece that thing is now. People constantly say that the ERPPC is 'better' than the Gauss or AC20 because of size, tonnage and ammo differences. What matters quite a bit more is Rate of Continuous Fire, or how long can you fire until you shut down. How often does an ERPPC 'mech have to pause its firing to cool? Well, dual Gauss, The heat train stops for no man and Dual ERPPC You got 24 seconds. or, to match damage output, triple ERPPCs you have 10 seconds. I've tried to kill a Stalker that had no Armour or weapons with dual ERPPCs. It takes forever.

The ERPPC needs something. I generally think it should be closer to the speed profile of the AC5, mostly because that's where range matches up, so about 1100m/s. I don't think It should, at this time, go back up to 1500m/s at all, because that's a bad spot for it.

#16 Mad Ox

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:53 AM

Slower speed makes it less useful at range as it can be dodged but still more useful then autocannon especially with regards to tonnage. Add on the nice benefit of disabling ECM's with a hit and PPC's still are quite useful. Also PPC does fly in laser straight line it doesn't have the negative cannons have of arching into the ground over distance requiring Elevation and lead to get a target at range.

Want no minimum range then use ER ya get better range but more heat that's its trade off. If used as a stand alone weapon this works well for IS mechs. Though I do miss being able to slap over ride and fire it below minimum like in Battletech not something ya wanna do but when really needed comes in handy.

Sure slower speed is a bit annoying its far from end of the world took some adjusting but even last night zoomed in at targets 1000+ meters away on my kit fox I was still pulling off hits with snap shots. Learn to lead a target and your gold. Have horrid PING well then you got other problems.

Sure its not a laser beam zap its a combo/blending of laser and cannon. You have no duration it hits like a cannon round but over distance it flies in straight line doesn't require any ammo that will blow up on ya and eat even more tonnage. Frankly right now seems to be one of the more balanced weapons I have used. Its a good balance of all the major attributes.

In time sure we will see more changes but for right now there are much worse things such as pulse weapons increased weight sure doent get offset by small boost to lower duration

#17 AztecD

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:37 AM

IS PPC

Add more speed, decrease damage as you go from 90m -> 0m

Edited by AztecD, 10 October 2014 - 10:37 AM.


#18 Xarian

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 11:01 AM

AC/10 and AC/20 both consume ammo and take significantly more crit slots than the PPC/ERPPC - to the point where you can rarely take more than one on a mech, and it's usually the mech's main weapon. Taking 3+ PPCs on a mech is easy, and finding 3 slots for an energy hardpoint is easy. And despite the heat, people still use them like extensively because FLD is that good; disabling ECM is icing on the cake. PPC and ERPPC are used commonly - significantly more often than AC/10 and AC/20, and enough to be considered part of the best builds available - so if the PPC and ERPPC are so much worse than the AC/10 and AC/20, why are they so much more heavily used? Buffing DPS of PPCs would just push medium-range engagements even further into PPC spam-ville, which is already irritating and not particularly fun.

The common complaint is that PPCs are too hard to hit at long range, and the projectile nerfs had no effect at medium/short range. This is certainly a legitimate complaint if you look at ERPPC alone. However, look at the reason that PPC speed got nerfed: Gauss Rifles. It's bad enough to have a twin Gauss guy shooting you at 900m for 25 damage, throw in 2x ERPPC and that goes up to 45 - not fun to get cored on a medium/light nearly instantly at ranges where even LRMs have trouble hitting. Increasing projectile speed just turns "medium range brawling" into "long range brawling".

Increasing PPC cooldowns will certainly lower their dominance in mid-range fighting, and I support this fully. PPC speeds should also be increased to buff their ability to hit at longer ranges, since ERPPCs are primarily designed to be a long-range weapon. However, this needs to come with a nerf to the Gauss Rifle: similarly increased cooldowns, and maximum effective distance should be double range, just like energy. So if you're getting Gaussed at 900m, you take 15 damage, enough to offset at least one of the PPC hits. And if you want a scientific explanation? Take a look at the drag equation - drag scales with the square of velocity: higher-velocity projectiles get affected more severely than lower-velocity projectiles (like AC/10 or AC/20).

PPCs should also get the same buffs/nerfs as the ERPPC, but it needs to maintain the minimum range. This is the price you pay for the lower heat. 10 points of front-loaded damage for 10 heat is extremely efficient - and 90m is basically face-hugging range, so engagement at > 90m is nearly always easy. It's only a major factor when you're using PPCs on a really slow mech like the Stalker, Atlas, Highlander, etc because your opponent can actually use the weakness of your weapons against you.

Edited by Xarian, 10 October 2014 - 11:03 AM.


#19 SpeedingBus

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:00 PM

PPCs right now are WORTHLESS I don't understand why people don't seem to get this... Just learn to play with a inferior weapon is what I am hearing which is pretty dam stupid advice to me.

#20 Hospy

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:12 PM

Maybe increase the ECM disruption?





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