50 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

Assuming the 240 ton max limit for CW drop decks hold, I find myself needing a 45 ton IS 'mech to max out some of my drop deck strike packages. I ask those of you who have played both, which is better: the Blackjack or the Vindicator?

[Bishop Steiner]

Triordinant, on 10 October 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Assuming the 240 ton max limit for CW drop decks hold, I find myself needing a 45 ton IS 'mech to max out some of my drop deck strike packages. I ask those of you who have played both, which is better: the Blackjack or the Vindicator?

total playstyle dependant.

The BJ-1 really shine because of highmount ballistics. The BJ-3 to a lseer degree, as it's hard to keep heavy energy cool at that weight. BJ-1X is a fast little laser boat. And the Arrow is a great crit seeker.

The Vindi doesn't really specialize thee way a BJ does, but is far more agile, with better overall hitboxes. So for those use to using mech like SHDs and Griffins, or other agile mechs, the Vindi is a great generalist mech. Very survivable. And the 1AA and SIB can both travel at pretty decent speeds.

I have them both, and slightly prefer the VND, overall, though out of the Heroes, the Arrow outperforms the SIB pretty handily, IMO.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Blackjack seems to be way more survivable than the Vindicator.

Arm+Torso energy + high ballistics + not squishy = win

Vindy does have access to missles, but the CB versions do not have enough hardpoints to make it worthwhile.

With a proper scaledown, Vindy could be a contender, but as is, its just too big and slow and underpowered ATM.

Blackjack was my first mech I did well in, and I still play mine when I'm not in my SHD.

Edited by Mister D, 10 October 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Metus regem]

To echo what Bishop is saying, as a Clan player, I look for a Black Jack, before I look for a Vindicator when seeking an IS mech to kill.

So the Vindicator has that going for it, as it presents less of a threat than a Black Jack, due to the lack of high mounted weapons, as well as having better hit boxes means more work to kill the Vindicator.

[Hospy]

Do you like missiles or do you plan on playing solely with direct fire weapons is more or less what it comes down to.

[MadPanda]

I got one vindicator because it looks cool. The blackjack is ugly.

[Cranial Enigma]

I would say go with Blackjacks since they are the only medium with high mounted arms (besides a cicada but the cicada doesn't have JJs), the Vindicators are decent too, but what they offer can be achieved with 55 ton mechs a lot better (plus they are oversized and for some reason stay shut down too long).

That is my personal opinion, I still need to try out the blackjacks, but the vindicators had a very bad first impression on me when I played them, only the 1AA got to stay in my mech lab, the other two got sold when I was done getting elite on all of them (besides SIB).

[Triordinant]

Hospy, on 10 October 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Do you like missiles or do you plan on playing solely with direct fire weapons is more or less what it comes down to.

Direct fire. Thanks for asking.

[Mcgral18]

I would have to say BJs.

More durable, high mounted weapons, more hardpoints.


No missiles, but AC20. BJ1x isn't bad either.


Oh, and a reasonably sized Med.

Edited by Mcgral18, 10 October 2014 - 02:09 PM.

[Dragomir Zelenka]

Triordinant, on 10 October 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Direct fire. Thanks for asking.

I don't have Vindicator, but I've elited both the BJ-1 and the BJ-1DC. They're great little mechs for direct fire, and if you luck into a team that lets you play a mobile flanking game, they punch way above their weight.

The Blackjack isn't super tough in a direct fight, but it can torso twist with the best of them, and it's nimble enough to survive some really hairy spots as long as you don't position yourself to be the sole target. Despite the comparatively high alpha potential of the BJ, people seem to overlook it frequently in play, so you can zip around and wreak havoc while the enemy shoots at everyone else but you.

I find the best strategy in both is to maneuver to high ground within a 200 hundred meters of a mech that's already engaged with other targets, the better to take advantage of your significant arm swivel. This is a bit easier in the BJ-1 because of its JJs, but it isn't hard to achieve in the BJ-1DC. From there the BJ can drop some serious damage in a very short time: I get component destruction bonuses constantly, because an AC20/3ML or LB-10x/6ML blast to the side of a distracted mech is downright lethal.

The weakness of the BJ (for me, at least) is that it really isn't great in a 1v1 fight. It's not nimble enough to match a light, and it caves quickly to steady pressure from anything Shadowhawk size or larger. Essentially the BJ is the destroyer escort to a heavier mech's battleship: stick close to the big guns and you can easily turn the tide.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

I would have to say BJs.

More durable, high mounted weapons, more hardpoints.


No missiles, but AC20. BJ1x isn't bad either.


Oh, and a reasonably sized Med.

would love to know the criteria for more durable. High mount arms allow for peak tarting, but also leave the STs wide open for getting hit. All the good build use an XL.

Triordinant, on 10 October 2014 - 02:03 PM, said:

Direct fire. Thanks for asking.

Direct fire, you will do better with the BJ.

Missiles, and or flanker/brawler? Vindicator, by far.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

would love to know the criteria for more durable. High mount arms allow for peak tarting, but also leave the STs wide open for getting hit. All the good build use an XL.

Scale?

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 10 October 2014 - 02:22 PM, said:

Scale?

negligible in reality. Once "exposed", a BJ has a lifespan in seconds against a decent shot. I use them for trials in CGB, because of that. 2 fast shots to the ST and it dies.

In a similar situation, a well driven Vindi loses it's arms first, and then finally a ST, but twists damage far better. And several solid Vindy builds don't require XLs. my 1R for instance uses a STD225, 4 Mlasers and a PPC. It will outlast any BJ in the game.

[Koniving]

Bishop Steiner, on 10 October 2014 - 01:19 PM, said:

The Vindi doesn't really specialize thee way a BJ does, but is far more agile, with better overall hitboxes.

This confuses me.
Better overall considering the size difference? Or simply better hitboxes? Because I've had the opposite experience. My Blackjack spreads damage well and feels like a tank with the abuse it can take. My Vindicator feels like a walking coffin, no matter how much I try I can't spread damage to save my life.

[Keeshu]

I've mastered the Blackjacks, but haven't done the Vindicator yet. Personally I want to get the 1AA and make it supporty with a Narc, Tag, and 2 Large Lasers.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...736b79c1a178222
In general I don't like using only a single Missile weapon, so I prefer to place a narc there. If you're a pugger like me, and you get a nice LRM friendly map, Narcs can be pretty sweet.
Vindi does have a nice small heat + armor bonus too, but only 5% for each. *shrug*

Aside from that I have a very hard time finding reasons to like the Vindicator over the Blackjack at a glance without playing the vindicator. The Blackjack excels due to those high arms. It's almost like you have ECM when you are hillhumping, and it's funny to watch people shoot the ground instead of you.
When I mastered the Blackjack, only the
1X - Speedy laser boat but XL on Blackjacks is generally a bad idea in the first place, so it's only good if people don't notice you.
3 - Jumpjets, and PPCs with small lasers to back it up and keep people out of min range.
Personally 45 tons is too light to start using ballistics, and when I was using the blackjack, AC/2s were so worthless for their weight, but you can squeeze in 2 AC/5s if you don't mind the backup lasers being smalls.


Whatever the case is, people will tend to ignore you since you are one of the 45 ton mechs, and sometimes this makes enough of a difference that it makes you survive and you get to massacre someone.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 10 October 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

This confuses me.
Better overall considering the size difference? Or simply better hitboxes? Because I've had the opposite experience. My Blackjack spreads damage well and feels like a tank with the abuse it can take. My Vindicator feels like a walking coffin, no matter how much I try I can't spread damage to save my life.

BJ cannot protect STs. Period. It's physically impossible. Sizes are not THAT huge a detractor as the Shadowhawk has long demonstrated, as long as it's height. The Vindy is not terribly wide. But it DOES have arms which easily intercept incoming fire. It also has a far better twist range, and has arm yaw, allowing you to actually use those arm weapons against targets you are not staring at. Vindy also has significantly higher twist speed, allowing it to spread damage easier.

The downside is the arms are indeed low. So at range, and in many areas, you do have to expose yourself to take the shot, where the BJ can expose less. Oddly people forget that you are still exposing a full frontal shot of the entire upper torso when doing so. If you can shoot me, I can still, easily, shoot you back. The BJ still has the gge in damage delivery, which you may be mistaking for part of the survivability quotient, since in a face to face furball, sometimes it's not really who is tougher, but who can lay out the msot PP-FLD that wins. In pretty much all regards, the BJ is better at that. The Vindi on the other hand works wonderfully for those who are constant hit and run harassers, because I promise you, I can and do spread the damage much more effectively form one. Otherwise I would run the BJ more than the Vindi. I don't because the Vindi supports the flanker playstyle far better.

You make some great videos and arguments, but in this instance I must assume it's playstyle bias, because the actual hard numbers in no way support you in this. And these are two of my most used chassis. I generally would not argue with McGral18 about Banshees, but I would wager I have more matches in these chassis than both of you, being primarily a medium mech specialist.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 10 October 2014 - 02:46 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Vindi even though AC20 BJ is fun too. Vindi is the Ryoken light and is a dream to pilot. So for my play style it would be the mech I would choose.

[Brizna]

For everything not SRM vindicator sucks.

Then it still sucks in comparisson to AC20/Gaus/2xPPC Blackjack.

Thread over.

[Bishop Steiner]

Brizna, on 10 October 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

For everything not SRM vindicator sucks.

Then it still sucks in comparisson to AC20/Gaus/2xPPC Blackjack.

Thread over.

Ah, such compelling evidence and arguments.

[N a p e s]

Ted Wayz, on 10 October 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Vindi even though AC20 BJ is fun too. Vindi is the Ryoken light and is a dream to pilot. So for my play style it would be the mech I would choose.

My experience differs greatly from that. Getting it elited has helped quite a bit and I don't outright dislike the chassis but it has been difficult.