37 replies to this topic

[Saiphas Cain]

Jumping from the 275 to the 300 is a noticeable difference. If I ever bite the bullet and buy a 350 I'll probably adopt the standard brawler loadout myself if only because those things are too heavy to justify the LRM rack anymore. The only time I'm really concerned about overland speed though is when the entire team cartwheels screaming away from the flank their own Assault lance deploys on. Mind you, when a team does that they need to be drug out into the street and shot anyway. ( Granted, I only see that on River city. What is it about that map that induces cartwheeling? Is it the lack of jumpjets to get up the long shore? ). After running the 275 so long even the step back up to the 300 FEELS fast. As for the optimal weapons loadouts I know what you mean there. Dire whales seem like some Orc Gargant where they just piled as many guns as possible together with duct tape and strapped legs to it. Can't stand up to that head on for sure.
I understand your argument about LRM boating. Enough missiles in a group will overpower just about any number of AMS's. You're going with punching through rather than bleeding them.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Saiphas Cain, on 28 October 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Jumping from the 275 to the 300 is a noticeable difference. If I ever bite the bullet and buy a 350 I'll probably adopt the standard brawler loadout myself if only because those things are too heavy to justify the LRM rack anymore.

i stopped reading there because I want to share my point of view why lrm's are both good and bad on assaults

the good
>you can help your teammates while still in transit
>tonnage advantage means you don't neccesarily cripple yourself for not specializing

the bad
>useless at close range
>useless when you cannot get a stable lock (ecm, radar dep, horrible teammates)

in other words, unless a tag or narc is present you can pretend to be a lower tonnage mech thats slower and larger than it should be, but if you're really insistent on not only being slow but using lrm's on the d-dc, then do something like this.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...13fdbc5dbd16f52

There's also a thing you can do with an lrm20+15 with artemis and a tag along with dual ac/5's and a medium laser, but I strongly advise against.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 28 October 2014 - 03:28 PM.

[Void Angel]

Arg Blarg, I Vomit Stupid At you!, on 28 October 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

then you're doing it wrong. Didn't even read the rest of your post because you don't know what you're talking about

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b202ad4b2525020

or alternatively for people who like machine gun,

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9d2bd6d83cba610

(forget about artemis if you need more ammo)

And that's why you shouldn't pay attention to Battlecruiser.

[Void Angel]

Blather Bargle Grr!, on 28 October 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

i stopped reading there because...

And that.

Honestly, why would someone begin each post with "I stopped reading because you're ignorant," then expect his own posts to be read? Especially when he's posting Atlas builds featuring a machine gun instead of a heat sink or ammo... Well, I was just checking to see if he was still earning his place on my ignore list - sometimes, I hate being right.

Edited by Void Angel, 29 October 2014 - 01:19 PM.

[Saiphas Cain]

Heh, I feel ya.
I tried a few matches with a hybrid missile setup and I'm willing to concede hybrid setups do not work ( that is, running an SRM heavy build with LESS than a 350, or running any LRM's without a beagle and/or sensor range mod ) It seems the brawler exclusive setup is too speed dependent, and the mixed range setup fails without sensor extensions.
Running a pair of SRM 6's with the 300 I just could not maintain close enough range no matter how hard I tried. 270 meters is disturbingly close and the shape of engagements has really changed with the long ranges clan mechs engage at. I also noticed the PUG meta seems to change every few days now. There was so much ECM and cover use ( and so few probes ) I couldn't get locks for anything last night. This was not the case just last week.
As far as ECM and locks are concerned though I did trade in my own beagle because I DON'T gain the ECM negating benefits with the D-DC's ECM module, but the loss of 25% additional targeting range can be felt. Without the additional targeting range to counter the enemy ECM, LRM's of any kind start to fall apart as noted above. I may end up switching back to that original fire support build until I buy a REAL engine. Thanks for the discussion all!

[Void Angel]

Hey, that's what we're here for. No matter what kind of build you go with, as long as you're always evaluating your performance and willing to make changes, you'll be fine.

You should think of the metagame in terms of economics. Players spend their time and effort in certain ways, and some ways of doing so are rewarded more than others - and of course personal skill and talents play a part. Players perceptions and actual experiences of how those rewards interact (and what value those rewards have for them; people actually choose to play Locusts, you know) produce the body of common wisdom and practice we call "the metagame." Whenever a major change to the game landscape occurs, it produces a shock to the metagame, which will fluctuate until a new equilibrium is reached. Recent shocks to the meta include the introduction of two new chassis as well as the recent tournament, so you should expect it to be changeable.

[SuperPignouf]

A quick word that was probably already said: the game pushes you to specialize: generalist builds simply do not work.
The idea of driving a polyvalent generalist mech is seducing and that's what I did in my first days but you practicaly never do well, because whatever the fight you pick, other more specialized mechs will destroy you.

So if you want to LRM: play a ranged Atlas, with for instance dual UAC5, large lasers and 3 LRM launchers.
You will get owned at close and outdamaged by most other mechs at range (because the Atlas does not have the weapons hardpoints layout to be a good long range mech) but you will have something more or less consistent.

Either, play the damn thing to its strenght and buy a real missile boat or fire support chassis later.

PS: I would strongly advice anyone to put at least a STD325 on the Atlas. You will really feel more mobile and agile and closing up and torso twisting will be much much easier.

Edited by SuperPignouf, 29 October 2014 - 01:58 PM.

[Void Angel]

Welcome to page one, man - it's not like there were six pages of response for you to sift through.

[Dawnstealer]

Oh wow - yeah, that's way, way, way too slow. You don't need a 400 in there, but you want to be moving at 60kph minimum (after speedtweak) or you're just too slow to survive.

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

Void Angel, on 29 October 2014 - 01:12 AM, said:

And that's why you shouldn't pay attention to Battlecruiser.

Void Angel, on 29 October 2014 - 01:16 AM, said:

And that.

Honestly, why would someone begin each post with "I stopped reading because you're ignorant," then expect his own posts to be read? Especially when he's posting Atlas builds featuring a machine gun instead of a heat sink or ammo... Well, I was just checking to see if he was still earning his place on my ignore list - sometimes, I hate being right.

>says don't pay attention to me
>reads my posts anyways so he can put himself on a pedastal

honestly I'm flattered you're so infatuated with me but I have no idea who you are or why anything you say matters in regards to my own opinions or the builds I list based on facts and prior experience. Quite frankly anything you do or don't do with your mechs has no consequence to me because I'm not the one driving them, but I do find your crush on me adorable.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 29 October 2014 - 05:27 PM.

[Saiphas Cain]

OK then, time for more hate.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...657a4f1ac52f773

I started running this build the other night and it is hilarious. Lights are so confused when you open up with machine-guns they tend to stick around rather than running away, giving your teammates more time to blast them. Heavier mechs just seem to stand there when they don't see AC/20 rounds and SRM flights coming at them... which is right where you want them for your LRM salvo's and teammates. Primarily, it's specifically NOT a brawling build so for one, you're not worried about when to get stuck in and if you're making an assault too early. Secondly, people STILL primary you because you're still an Atlas, and when you're standing back that means it's harder to hit you, you can disengage easier, and people are focusing on a distant you, so your closer teammates can tear them to pieces. This build really uses people's target fixation against them.
LRM builds on an atlas were traditionally considered inferior in the face of "REAL" LRM boats but boating more launchers than this just creates even worse heat spikes! ( Remember, 4 LRM 20's generate 32.06 heat, not 24 ). Beyond other factors, it's just a lot of fun, people will think you're an idiot, and they will let their guard down. Once I can afford a Sensor Range mod it will be even more insulting. ( The Sensor range mod, beagle probe, and command console are there to extend your targeting range in the face of ECM, since against unshielded targets it will extend your targeting range well beyond what your LRM's can actually hit. )

Edited by Saiphas Cain, 31 October 2014 - 08:23 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

I'll give you credit for originality, for sure. One thing to keep an eye on, though, are the number of tubes in the torso. A DDC has shoulder tubes of 10, 6, and 6. So if you pop an LRM20 in there, it will fire off in two volleys of 10. This is probably fine, but you're going to end up with wasted volleys.

For example: someone has radar dep, or is right next to an ECM field, you fire off your full LRM40 volley, it's going to fire off in at least three volleys: 10, 10, 6, 6, 4, 4. If that guy gets the missile warning and ducks back, a lot of that volley's going to be wasted.

If you're absolutely stuck on going with LRMs for this build (and it certainly CAN work - my S is built as an LRM5 troll brawler), I recommend something like this:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c972cd1e2b9a91b

You'll have the option of firing one big volley, which will go out as one big mass of missiles, but you can also go with sequenced fire that will bleed away a target's AMS.

Add to this you won't be going so slow that you'll be left behind. And when it comes time to brawl, you can straight up maul little and medium guys that get too close. The bigger engine will allow you to torso twist to stay alive longer, and keep twisting fast enough to keep up with a circling Jenner/Spider/Commando/Firestarter.

[Saiphas Cain]

Third LB10-X for the Atlas will probably be my next buy so I can super-shotgun it. ( first 10x is going to a SHD once people quit stacking matches with mediums. Cripes I'm impatient! ) With the 10X I'd be going with the larger engine and SRM's because it simply looks hilarious, and I doubt the targets eyeballs would quit spinning by the time I'm reloaded.

I'm pretty sure the tubes do allot correctly for the LRM's so that the 20 fires from the 10 tube and the two 10's fire from the 6 tube launchers so there's 2 launches per firing. I'm not sure if the smaller ones are 5+5 or 6+4 but that's a minor concern. The biggest issue I've come across with this build is the entire team hiding behind me trying to push me into brawling range despite the tiny, tiny MG barrels on the RT and the massive flights of LRM's I keep spewing. No spotters means bad times, and an up front Atlas gets murdered in the open. Even of the enemy ducks when the missile warning pops up that's still good suppression in my book, provided others actually do something while the enemy is being suppressed, heh. Anyway, perks due in a few days so it will probably be back to the old standby for me. It was a fun experiment, but AC/20 bonuses is AC/20 bonuses. I'll take em!

[Skarlock]

I'm pretty new at this game so please take what I say with a grain of salt, but I thought I would at least try to contribute to the discussion since I love my D-DC.

This is my counter-meta build that I'm using right now for pugs (since that's all I do).

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b6b5e56ff454694

As others have alluded, general builds suffer a lot compared to specialist builds. However, one area I think that is neglected is the mid-range Atlas build.

There are a few points though that I think need to be considered when talking about the Atlas.

1. Cover works better the longer your effective range to your enemy is. In many positions, it's trivial to round the same corner a brawler uses to hide from enemy fire and negate that cover, or even worse, go around in the *other* direction and start blasting it from behind. It's not trivial to make a 30 second trip just to get around a rock that someone is using to hide when they are blasting you from 500m away, which will also conveniently separate you from your team in many situations...

2. The current meta feels like it's the age of the dual clan ultra-AC20 setup. I feel these setups have much better lethality in terms of concentrated damage and more effective short range burst than SRM setups, due to having much better control over where the damage lands. Atlas may win on terms of raw damage numbers, but SRM volleys tend to go all over the place and that damage gets distributed all over the place. You really *can't* get huge alpha without SRM in a D-DC, so I feel like you're playing to the meta-game with an inferior meta build by doing that.

3. You'd be really surprised how often you can get away with standing out of cover, fully exposed, and simply blast anyone trying to lock on to you. Continue to punish them with a bit of LRM fire after they duck away and I can almost guarantee that mech will not dare challenge you again for that lane of fire. Just make sure you have something nearby to duck behind in case you start to get overwhelmed by multiple enemies (or in my case, both my UAC5's jam).

4. Gauss snipers, and longer range laser/ppc boats benefit from ECM tremendously. There are many ways to negate a lot of the benefits of ECM at close range such as seismic sensors and UAVs. Your options to effectively spot ECM covered snipers that are being backed by an Atlas covering your approach to it are much more limited...

tl;dr - I think many players focus too much on the ultra short range game and lrm spam. You have other options thanks to the power of your ECM and the broad spectrum of your hard points.

[Tahribator]

Saiphas Cain, on 31 October 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

OK then, time for more hate.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...657a4f1ac52f773

A puppy dies every time an Atlas LRM boat drops to the battlefield.

As an Assault and especially an Atlas DDC pilot, you are required to be at the frontline, provide ECM cover and tank damage whenever a push happens. I keep coming across people using builds like these all the time, and all they do is park at the rear and be all kinds of damage averse. This forces second-line 'Mechs to take the front and they don't hold up well against enemy assaults. Heavies do this better. At least get a Stalker or a BLR-1S if you insist on wasting an Assault.

I can understand keeping a single LRM10-15 just to reach out while you're on the move though. Still, the Atlas is at its best when built as a 60+ KPH pure-bred brawler.

There's also no "newb friendly" Atlas out there. Sure, some people think being the biggest and heaviest 'Mech on the field might actually be easier to play but it's far from the truth.

[Saiphas Cain]

Agreed Tahribator. With so many mechs now sporting LRM's the old build I was using has become quite a dinosaur. With the new perks the faster AC/20 projectile ( 10% total ) and slightly tougher side torsos ( 11 PTS each ) favors brawling builds even more than before, if such a thing is possible. Running with this build
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c864dc246dcda63
( new mouse hasn't come in yet so the missiles are LMB so I remember left torso, AC/20 is RMB so I remember right, lasers are the less used 'E' key. ) My lance managed to tear through an opposing lance and collapse an entire front. Granted, they were focusing fire on an Atlas S and they were "dis-armed" by the end of it but the damage output is incredible. I'm not sure I'll be switching to a "hammer" build even if I do have the c-bills for a 350 standard engine. The artemis guidance system helps with damage grouping far more than I expected.
I feel since the clan mechs were introduced, the number of LRM's in play has increased to a degree where carrying LRM racks in an Atlas is no longer a tactically justified decision. This is a reversal of my earlier opinion, yes, and I acknowledge that.

VS Dire Whales, the dual AC/20 option makes them disturbingly effective against you, but not so much VS lights, which are harder to catch. Conversely, a brace of 18 SRM's is terrifyingly good at tearing the clothes off a light in a single volley even if your aim isn't perfect. If they come back for more they're probably suicidal.

Playing an atlas will teach you to be cagey sooner or later, and you can actually draw opponents out by being a little coy because people will chase you to the exclusion of others at times just to try and eliminate you. This can pull the enemy way out of position.

[SuperPignouf]

Saiphas Cain, on 06 November 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Agreed Tahribator. With so many mechs now sporting LRM's the old build I was using has become quite a dinosaur. With the new perks the faster AC/20 projectile ( 10% total ) and slightly tougher side torsos ( 11 PTS each ) favors brawling builds even more than before, if such a thing is possible. Running with this build
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c864dc246dcda63.

Now this is a real Atlas build. I think though you could achieve better results by removing the AMS and some of the additional heatsinks to get endo-steel structure and a bigger engine. Speed, as a brawling Atlas, is really invaluable.
Speed is that one thing when you are used not having it, you don't feel like it's that important, but once you taste it, you can't do without it anymore.

The reason behind removing AMS is that carrying an ECM, you and your close teammates are less prone to LRM showers. Plus having better speed allows you to navigate more smoothly between cover's and don't get showered.

I edited your build into this to illustrate my advice:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4f55a5d089520a4

You could also find inspiration on this mechspec page I think (If I were you I would just take the build from the page and replace AMS with more AC/SRM ammo)
https://www.mechspec...-ams-std350.51/

[Saiphas Cain]

I will probably go with exactly this build once I build up some CBills again. Went broke adjusting to the IS twerks. Installing a radar derp module ( once I can afford those ) will do more to stop LRM swarms than any amount of AMS ammo anyway on this mech.