44 replies to this topic

[Hoax415]

Well if that's how it reads to you then once again you are failing at reading. Which is far from shocking at this point as you have a tendency to "mis-read" a thread if it lets you go on crazed tangential rants like the one you just posted.

This thread is about if the current system is making for worse matches because the MM tries to balance weight classes between teams and the weight class distribution is currently a ffa in smaller groups.

Its not at all about punishing small groups. Its about, hey do small groups esp these "casual" small groups end up in games with worse elo delta because MM is trying to balance their weight class composition?

To put it another way, is open ended weight class composition leading to the same type of elo distortions that game mode selection does though obviously on a smaller scale.

But I realize that's pretty high level thinking. So you let me know if you need it broken down into even simpler components and I would be happy to try.

Edited by Hoax415, 15 October 2014 - 09:24 AM.

[Sprouticus]

1453 R, on 15 October 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

Hmm...how's about you folks simply suggest what you want to suggest?

Groups of 2 or 3 can't take any heavies or assaults at all - they can grab three lights, three mediums, or a combination of the two classes, but they can't grab anything bigger than 55 tons. Groups of 4 can take one heavy, but only if they ask the matchmaker nicely first and get permission from at least three 12-man teams currently in the queue.

Or better yet, why not simply have the matchmaker assign a team of <4 random 'Mechs out of their hangars at any given time, as the 12-man queue requires? They don't get any choice at all in what they pilot and are simply instructed "we need two lights and a medium. You're in your Stock Mech Monday Blackjack, and you two are in a Jenner and an off Kit Fox. Deal w/it."

Do pardon the sarcasm, but this entire thread, to me, pretty much reads "How can we powershaft small groups the hardest such that they're forced to be completely helpless, useless, and pointless for anything save filling in weight gaps for large teams?" Perhaps valid if you're a big ol' group looking for matches, but the 12-man queue is already pretty torturous for small casual groups hoping for the chance to play together and actually receiving the chance to be completely superfluous to every match they play, win or lose, instead. Forcing small groups to take lighter chassis whether they want to or not, as practically every suggestion in here is aiming at in some way, is kind of a lousy way to reward the guys you folks need to grease the gears of your big giant superfights.

Please, try to keep the small-group experience in mind while you look for ways to force us to make your lives easier at the expense of our own enjoyment of the game. I've already lost a few friends who might've otherwise played this game to the viciousness and helplessness of the 12-man queue. If I ever find another one willing to try, I'd appreciate the chance to keep him.

First, this is not about shafting anyone. Large groups already have to deal with 3/3/3/3, so all this does is level the playing field. I would actually argue that smaller groups are gaming the system by doing this.since they can ton up far more than larger groups.

As a side note: Sarcasm is counterproductive, come across as childish, and won't convince anyone of your POV, so please please leave it in your head. I get the frustration and the instinct to snark. Ifeel it all the itme. Sometimes I even give in to it. But if we really want PGI to listen and be taken seriously, we need to act like mature adults in our conversations.


as for options, I still like the original suggestion best, however, the idea of

1/1/1/2 for 2-5
2/2/2/3 for 6-9
3/3/3/3 for 10 & 12

would not be bad. It is more flexible for sure, but the downside is the benefit to the MM system is far less as smaller groups can still ton up.



Again, this was initially proposed by Russ on Twitter. The oother options on the table:

1) Keep the current system and end up with wide Elo variance and generally fatter drops.
2) Use the game mode fix for the gorup queue only.
3) Quintuple the gorup queue population (which will only go DOWN once CW is enabled since most drops with be CW drops).


(there are other, but really they end up being way more restrictive so I wont even mention them).

[Bront]

No. Just no.

Problems with this proposal.

1) Requiring groups to fill up all roles of a lance first still doesn't fix the issue, as 2 3 man groups get paired with a 6 man group and you still get 4 assaults, 4 heavies, 3 mediums, and 1 light.

2) Restricting what a small group can have makes smaller groups less fun. Why play in a 2 man group ever if I can't play the mechs I want with my friend?

3) The MM, in my experience, has balanced the imbalance on both sides, so generally, if I have 4 assaults and 4 heavy mechs, so does the other team.

The biggest problem in the group queue is larger competitive teams (groups of 8-12 made up of top teir competitive teams) that get matched with groups that have less competitive players and often 3 different groups. It's a reality of the matchmaker because sometimes it just can't do any better, but it's really no fun getting rolled by a SJR or 228 for example when I'm dropping casually with a few friends and in a mech that's not the most ideal build (or my friends aren't in the most ideal builds, etc).

Smaller groups are already at a huge dissadvantage. Many mech builds work best with support around them, but you can't count on that support being there if you don't bring it with. Restricting them further will simply get people to leave rather than deal with further and further restrictions.

That said, the worst thing that happens is you get killed, and you drop again 5 minutes later.

Edited by Bront, 15 October 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[1453 R]

Sprouticus, on 15 October 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

First, this is not about shafting anyone. Large groups already have to deal with 3/3/3/3, so all this does is level the playing field. I would actually argue that smaller groups are gaming the system by doing this.since they can ton up far more than larger groups.

As a side note: Sarcasm is counterproductive, come across as childish, and won't convince anyone of your POV, so please please leave it in your head. I get the frustration and the instinct to snark. Ifeel it all the itme. Sometimes I even give in to it. But if we really want PGI to listen and be taken seriously, we need to act like mature adults in our conversations.


as for options, I still like the original suggestion best, however, the idea of

1/1/1/2 for 2-5
2/2/2/3 for 6-9
3/3/3/3 for 10 & 12

would not be bad. It is more flexible for sure, but the downside is the benefit to the MM system is far less as smaller groups can still ton up.



Again, this was initially proposed by Russ on Twitter. The oother options on the table:

1) Keep the current system and end up with wide Elo variance and generally fatter drops.
2) Use the game mode fix for the gorup queue only.
3) Quintuple the gorup queue population (which will only go DOWN once CW is enabled since most drops with be CW drops).


(there are other, but really they end up being way more restrictive so I wont even mention them).

Option 4) is probably a strong contender as well, which would be allowing an opt-in to the 12-man queue for solo players looking for a stiffer challenge. Suddenly the granularity of the solo queue is available to the 12-man queue as well, there's a ton less pressure on the matchmaker to find those oddly-shaped puzzle pieces when it can just manufacture puzzle pieces to spec out of the hardcore solos. Elo might even actually start mattering in the 12-man queue again, and at least this way, when the handful of fill-in players in a large group drop are completely helpless to affect the outcome of that drop, well...they signed up for that, specifically and actively.

People have been asking for an opt-in to the 12-man queue since the 12-man queue went up. Just give it to them already, and see if that has the desired impact. Leave players opted out by default, and put up a flag in the game mode selector saying "Toggle this button on if you're ready for a REAL MAN CHALLENGE" or something equivalent, and maybe throw solos an extra 5% reward incentive for opting into the 12-man queue and helping grease the gears.

12-man queue players get quicker, easier, better weight-matched matches, hardcore solos get the stiffer, more challenging fights they want, casual groups get a much better chance of not seeing ultracomp RHoD scrimmage teams every other game, and regular solos are completely unaffected. Everybody gets what they want.

[Sprouticus]

1453 R, on 15 October 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

Option 4) is probably a strong contender as well, which would be allowing an opt-in to the 12-man queue for solo players looking for a stiffer challenge. Suddenly the granularity of the solo queue is available to the 12-man queue as well, there's a ton less pressure on the matchmaker to find those oddly-shaped puzzle pieces when it can just manufacture puzzle pieces to spec out of the hardcore solos. Elo might even actually start mattering in the 12-man queue again, and at least this way, when the handful of fill-in players in a large group drop are completely helpless to affect the outcome of that drop, well...they signed up for that, specifically and actively.

People have been asking for an opt-in to the 12-man queue since the 12-man queue went up. Just give it to them already, and see if that has the desired impact. Leave players opted out by default, and put up a flag in the game mode selector saying "Toggle this button on if you're ready for a REAL MAN CHALLENGE" or something equivalent, and maybe throw solos an extra 5% reward incentive for opting into the 12-man queue and helping grease the gears.

12-man queue players get quicker, easier, better weight-matched matches, hardcore solos get the stiffer, more challenging fights they want, casual groups get a much better chance of not seeing ultracomp RHoD scrimmage teams every other game, and regular solos are completely unaffected. Everybody gets what they want.

I would LOVE this. I have been saying it since they announced the solo queue and I agree it would fix some of the issue. No more than 1-2 solo's per game though please.