33 replies to this topic

[gregsolidus]

I want to wait for them to fail before offering advice and I'm not entirely sure if making parts of the center torso not part of the center torso is a wise idea.

[Khobai]

Quote

Its already marvelous fun to pilot a locust largely BECAUSE you are so vulnerable.

Im not denying that its fun to pilot. But the fact remains if youre in a locust youre not going to contribute as much as if you were in any other mech. I realize some players can do 300-500 damage in a locust. But those players would also be doing 600+ damage in a firestarter.

The locust needs help. so does the commando. the biggest difference between the locust/commando and other lights is the fact they fall into one-hit kill territory. Thats what I feel needs to be fixed. No mech should die in one hit.

The game needs one-hit kill protection to make sub 30 ton mechs worthwhile to use.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[Glythe]

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan lasers have 40% more range and only 12% more heat.

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs can largely ignore ghost heat

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs have in some cases double the weapons on the same weight frame.

[HlynkaCG]

Glythe, on 15 October 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan lasers have 40% more range and only 12% more heat.

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs can largely ignore ghost heat

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs have in some cases double the weapons on the same weight frame.

Depends on the quirks.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Even to me this is a bit much.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

HlynkaCG, on 14 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

ETA:
People don't expect a locust to have a 27 dmg alpha, and thus ignore it at their peril
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...254d40a6f3845a6

Someone just has to sweep the legs of your locust there with lasers and they'll fall off.

[TygerLily]

Glythe, on 15 October 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan lasers have 40% more range and only 12% more heat.

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs can largely ignore ghost heat

Quirks aren't going to balance the fact that clan mechs have in some cases double the weapons on the same weight frame.

I don't know that I agree they "largely ignore ghost heat" but I think you mean they can compensate better by fitting more HS.

Sure more range but with that 12% more heat there's also generally ~ 25% longer beam duration. More exposure to the IS's FLD ballistics and shorter beam durations.

MUCH less option via fixed hard points and Engine rating to really optimize.

Having double the weapons isn't always better. Firestarters have a shitton of energy points...but struggle to use them all...like the Nova. If you are talking total number of hard points, mixing omnipods for max hardpoints:

Kit Fox can have 6 total
Adder 4 (5 if you count the fixed Flamer. I don't)
Nova 14 (6E each arm, 2B each torso)
Stormcrow 8 (5E, 3M)
Mad Dog 10 (4E, 6M)
Summoner 6 (4E, 2B)
Timber Wolf 9
War Hawk 9
Dire Wolf 15

Conversely,
Spider 5
Firestarter 8
Hunch 9
Kintaro 18/19, Shadow Hawk 2D/2D2 have 7
Quickdraw 7
Cataphract 6
Orion 7
Stalker 3F/5S, Battlemaster 1G/3M 10
Atlas 8

Only 50, 60, and 100 tonners even start to approach "double weapons."


I am in full agreement though that the quirks will need to be pretty massive to address any differential in power.

[HlynkaCG]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 15 October 2014 - 12:18 PM, said:

Someone just has to sweep the legs of your locust there with lasers and they'll fall off.

Well duh, its a goddamn Locust

[Glythe]

TygerLily, on 15 October 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

I don't know that I agree they "largely ignore ghost heat" but I think you mean they can compensate better by fitting more HS.

I am in full agreement though that the quirks will need to be pretty massive to address any differential in power.

How do clan mechs Ignore ghost heat? You can mix and match weapon types. If 3 srm6 is the max you just use 3 missiles. If 2 gauss is the max then you use 2 gauss. See where I'm going? On a Stalker you're stuck with whatever variant you bought. Oh look too bad if you have 4 missile launchers. You get screwed on the 4th if you try to use SRMs or LRMs. Clan mechs just swap a torso or an arm.

Many of the IS mechs have horrid weapon options like the Hunchback 4G. Ok sure it has 3 ballistic slots but what are you going to use? Three AC/2 are way too heavy for the punch you get. Two MG with a "real" ballistic ends up watering down which ballistic weapon you use. Imagine if IS mechs could swap out torsos or arms. Throw out the 4G..... imagine it with a 4SP left torso (+1m +1 AMS) and arms(+2 E on each arm), with the 4G right torso of 3x ballsitics.

IS mechs can't swap out parts so they are left behind with ghost heat rules. Consequently..... clan mechs need to achieve ghost heat with about 50% fewer weapons fired.

On top of that clan mechs have better heatsinks that take up less space, and have more true doubles in the engine.


Know what they could have done instead of quirking every IS mech? Give IS mechs 1.7 DHS across the board outside the engine. It would be a better start than arbitrarily deciding the 4G should have an AC/20 quirk when the truth of the matter is that the AC/20 sucks in practice on that mech.



The quirks need to be massive. How else is an Atlas going to equal a Dire wolf? From the sound of things I really don't think they are going to be massive.

Edited by Glythe, 15 October 2014 - 04:59 PM.

[TygerLily]

Glythe, on 15 October 2014 - 04:56 PM, said:

How do clan mechs Ignore ghost heat? You can mix and match weapon types.
...

IS mechs can't swap out parts so they are left behind with ghost heat rules. Consequently..... clan mechs need to achieve ghost heat with about 50% fewer weapons fired.

...

The quirks need to be massive. How else is an Atlas going to equal a Dire wolf? From the sound of things I really don't think they are going to be massive.

I agree, the quirks will need to be pretty heavy handed to work.

As far as avoiding ghost heat, IS may not swap omnis but they can swap gear just like a Clanner. Don't want ghost heat on 4 SRMs? Bring some LRMs...mix and match weapon types just like a Clanner.

Also, I often swap omnipods so I have MORE of the SAME weapon types. My Stormcrow could avoid ghost heat, by your method, by taking a ballistic. But I ditched the ballistic for...more lasers! And now my Stormcrow joins my Hunchy 4P as one of my top two Mechs (statistically speaking). The 4P avoids ghost heat by not firing over the limit (head+3shoulder on M1, 3 shoulder M2, arms M3)...so does the Stormcrow (4 arms M1, head/shoulders m2).

[Glythe]

TygerLily, on 15 October 2014 - 05:07 PM, said:

As far as avoiding ghost heat, IS may not swap omnis but they can swap gear just like a Clanner. Don't want ghost heat on 4 SRMs? Bring some LRMs...mix and match weapon types just like a Clanner.

But you realize the strategy of this game is boating the maximum number of weapons for one specific range. So Clans get to cheat ghost heat and IS mechs just get screwed. Saying hey use some LRMs screws up that mechanic.

[1453 R]

You know why Clan OmniMechs have that ability to switch body components around, Glythe?

Because their chassis, engine, and various default equipment are hard-locked to the 'Mech and can't be altered.

The ability to alter their basic chassis, dynamically-assigned Endo and Ferro slots, and a complete lack of fixed equipment, as well as inflation of their hardpoints over the requirements of the stock chassis, is what the Inner Sphere gets in return for its fixed hardpoints. OmniMechs get modular hardpoints, but have to deal with the lower number of stock hardpoints in many cases, as well as baked-in deficiencies across most existing and forthcoming Clan chassis.

Certainly Clan lasers are more dangerous than IS lasers, but considering that IS ballistics are markedly more dangerous than Clan ballistics (Gauss exempted), I see it as a fair, if not optimal, trade. Do I dislike the fact that Spheroid lasers are butt? Sure I do, I've always hated that, and it's a very pressing reason why I've jumped ship to the Clan tech base - but dragging Clan beams down to the level of the Inner Sphere's pointless beams just means we're back to ballistics (and energy pseudo-ballistics a'la the PPC) being utterly, crushingly dominant.

I'd rather see IS beams tweaked up to not be butt, Clan ballistics tweaked up to also not be butt, and then wash this whole sordid "Make Clanz SUCK!!" nonsense that keeps cropping up 'round these parts down the tubes.

Where it belongs.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

1453 R, on 15 October 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

You know why Clan OmniMechs have that ability to switch body components around, Glythe?

Because their chassis, engine, and various default equipment are hard-locked to the 'Mech and can't be altered.

Because they stuck to TT for THAT LITTLE BIT.

If they stuck to TT we wouldnt be able to chance much of ANYTHING from the regular battlemechs as the Omnimechs (IE clams) are supposed to be MORE versatile than IS not the other way around

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 15 October 2014 - 07:21 PM.

[TygerLily]

Glythe, on 15 October 2014 - 05:21 PM, said:

But you realize the strategy of this game is boating the maximum number of weapons for one specific range. So Clans get to cheat ghost heat and IS mechs just get screwed. Saying hey use some LRMs screws up that mechanic.

You gotta read more carefully. I addressed how IS can boat weapons and avoid ghost heat via my example of the 4P Hunchy.

As far as the LRM thing, I was addressing your specific example of missile points but my point stand regardless of the hardpoints. I think you are "missing the forest for the trees" so to speak.