176 replies to this topic

[The pessimistic optimist]

Xiphias, on 14 February 2019 - 02:00 PM, said:

If you've ever used streaks or LRMs you're letting the computer do most of the work for you.

The issue is that you are trying to force your idea of what is right on other people even when it's clearly allowed by the rules.

I'll ask again, what's the difference between chain fire and a macro? If the intent is important (as you've argued) then we should take chain fire out of the game, right?

Should we really make players hold down a button to keep tag on (which could be achieved by setting a weight on a key)?

Personally, I don't use macros. I don't see where they provide any significant advantage in the game, but I support the right of people to use macros as long as PGI allows it.

I come from a fighting game tradition and something doing my button inputs is sacrilege... http://evo.shoryuken.com/
I can do my own combos thanks;)

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 February 2019 - 04:53 PM.

[Xiphias]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 04:24 PM, said:

I come from a fighting game tradition and something doing my button inputs is sacrilege... http://evo.shoryuken.com/
I can do my own combos thanks;)

But this isn't a fighting game. It's a completely different type and style. The focus of MWO isn't on who can enter frame perfect combinations, it's about movement, positioning, and tactics. It's actually a rather slow paced shooter that doesn't really require a lot of twitch reflexes. "The thinking man's shooting" tagline, while it gets a lot of flack, does have an element of truth in it, and that is in large part what makes MWO different from any other option out there right now.

MWO doesn't have combos, hence having macros doesn't really matter that much. Chainfire is literally just an in game macro, but it's been in every mechwarrior (at least since 2) and no one seems to have a problem with it. Holding down a button isn't hard, but it is tiring and physically bad for you in the long term, no one would bat an eye if tag was a toggle in game, why does allowing it to be a macro cause a problem?

If you can provide a good example in MWO of macros providing a significant advantage (like they would in a fighting game) that's one thing, but none of the macros I've seen (other than the obvious exploits like the RAC bug). Give an actual advantage and most of them, like the Guass macro in this thread, are actually worse than doing it manually because you give up precision control of the weapon. None of the competitive players that I've known use the Gauss macro, if it gave a strong advantage you would absolutely see them using it.

tl;dr
MWO doesn't have combos, viewing it with the same mentality as a fighting game is a mistake.

[The pessimistic optimist]

Xiphias, on 14 February 2019 - 07:21 PM, said:

But this isn't a fighting game. It's a completely different type and style. The focus of MWO isn't on who can enter frame perfect combinations, it's about movement, positioning, and tactics. It's actually a rather slow paced shooter that doesn't really require a lot of twitch reflexes. "The thinking man's shooting" tagline, while it gets a lot of flack, does have an element of truth in it, and that is in large part what makes MWO different from any other option out there right now.

MWO doesn't have combos, hence having macros doesn't really matter that much. Chainfire is literally just an in game macro, but it's been in every mechwarrior (at least since 2) and no one seems to have a problem with it. Holding down a button isn't hard, but it is tiring and physically bad for you in the long term, no one would bat an eye if tag was a toggle in game, why does allowing it to be a macro cause a problem?

If you can provide a good example in MWO of macros providing a significant advantage (like they would in a fighting game) that's one thing, but none of the macros I've seen (other than the obvious exploits like the RAC bug). Give an actual advantage and most of them, like the Guass macro in this thread, are actually worse than doing it manually because you give up precision control of the weapon. None of the competitive players that I've known use the Gauss macro, if it gave a strong advantage you would absolutely see them using it.

tl;dr
MWO doesn't have combos, viewing it with the same mentality as a fighting game is a mistake.

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you. Something taking inputs out is just wrong to me.

Edited by SirSmokes, 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM.

[Hauptmann Keg Steiner]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you.

That's called a bot.

[Curccu]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you. Something taking inputs out is just wrong to me.

I think you are still missing my point and Xiphias point... You can have your "code of honor" that is fine but if you are starting to claim macros are cheating, when they are not (Stated by PGI) and they are not by definition of word cheating (act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.) because they do not give advantage.
They do not even take input out, you still have to push the button when you want to shoot even with macros.

[Sjorpha]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you. Something taking inputs out is just wrong to me.

The confusion here is specifically because you said it was cheating.

Saying it's wrong is and that people shouldn't do it etc is perfectly arguable, but cheating is defined by the rules not by ethics or opinions. It's not cheating just because it's wrong, only if it's actually against the rules. It doesn't matter how many posts you make about why it's wrong to use macros, because you will at best establish that it is wrong, which is completely irrelevant to cheating.

For example, if aimbots and wallhacks weren't against the rules they wouldn't be cheating, the are only cheating because there is a rule in this game saying you can't use them. Without that rule you could still argue using an aimbot is wrong, but you couldn't argue that it's cheating.

If PGI makes a rule against macros then macros will become cheating, so for example the weekend before the RACro exploit was fixed that macro was technically cheating during those 4 days because PGI made a statement that it was. You can argue macros should be cheating, but not that they currently are.

[Sjorpha]

Curccu, on 15 February 2019 - 02:50 AM, said:

I think you are still missing my point and Xiphias point... You can have your "code of honor" that is fine but if you are starting to claim macros are cheating, when they are not (Stated by PGI) and they are not by definition of word cheating (act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.) because they do not give advantage.
They do not even take input out, you still have to push the button when you want to shoot even with macros.

It doesn't matter if they provide advantages or not, and there are in fact situations where macros do provide advantages. Gauss macro provides a potential advantage in firing speed, and another macro you can use is for example one that perfectly staggers lasers to avoid ghost heat, 3 LL + 3LPL for example can be macroed to fire their combined alpha inside the duration of the large lasers by delaying the LPLs exactly 500ms. The advantages are arguably very small, and in many cases irrelevant because the weapon combinations they apply to aren't the strongest making macros irrelevant to the metagame, but they are definitely advantages nonetheless.

But it doesn't matter, and it wouldn't even matter if the advantages were huge (except that would probably lead to a rule against macros eventually) because cheating is defined by the rules of the game and nothing else.

[Xiphias]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you. Something taking inputs out is just wrong to me.

What is playing and what is letting the computer play though? Should we be allowed to group weapons or should everyone fire each weapon independently. Isn't grouping weapons letting the computer play part of the game? Once again, chain fire is allowing the use to hold down a button and cycle weapons instead of doing it manually, that's what macros do.

What do you consider, "letting the computer play for you" and what isn't. It's not as black and white of a line as you make it seem, otherwise we'd all be playing QWOP in mechs.

I don't really consider holding a button down to keep tag on to be "playing the game". I don't play MWO to hold down a button. If you really are against letting the computer play, you should be advocating for chain fire to be removed.

Sjorpha, on 15 February 2019 - 03:09 AM, said:

But it doesn't matter, and it wouldn't even matter if the advantages were huge (except that would probably lead to a rule against macros eventually) because cheating is defined by the rules of the game and nothing else.

Agreed, cheating is breaking the stated rules. The rules allow macros so they aren't cheating, full stop.

That said, I've more been addressing the points as to why it is fine for the rules to allow macros and that's because they give little to no advantage. While the gauss macro may give you a marginal advantage in fire speed in practice you rarely if ever want to chain fire gauss rifles like that and running a charge sequence limits the manual control you have (granted a well designed macro can mitigate some of these limitations). If macros provided a significant edge, rather than more quality of life fixes, I'd be fine with banning them, as is I don't have a problem with them in game.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Curccu, on 13 February 2019 - 02:32 PM, said:

I mean you must have some kind of knowledge of how macros work to have some kind of base for your claims of them being cheating?

read enough about it on the forums over the years.they cry about it since early 2013

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

VeeOt Dragon, on 05 February 2019 - 04:10 AM, said:

only have one thing to say about this stuff. using any Macro or outside program of any sort that gives you an advantage over an equally skilled player without it should be grounds for an immediate and permanent ban or better yet a loss of all XP, MC, C-Bills, and mechs. (we don't have the player base to be banning people sadly) so just reset their account to 0, make them start over completely.

Cheating is Cheating no matter how you want to spin it.

oh! and my reasponse was initially pointed to this guy O7

[Curccu]

SHRedo, on 25 February 2019 - 02:50 PM, said:

read enough about it on the forums over the years.they cry about it since early 2013

Yes they cry about it since it's invented without 99% of them even understanding how it works.

and sure that 1% have been right few times like UAC unjam and RAC exploit few months ago but those have been fixed.

[Mystere]

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 12:06 PM, said:

Why do people use them that's an important questions;)

Do tell me how I can fully utilize all the dials, buttons, and switches (especially the 3-stage ones) on a Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog without using the accompanying TARGET software, especially because MWO itself cannot detect them all?

Alternatively, do tell me how I can use iPads as control panels for MWO without using additional control software?

SirSmokes, on 14 February 2019 - 08:06 PM, said:

Missed the point...I think people should play the game and not let the computer play it for you. Something taking inputs out is just wrong to me.

Just because something is wrong to you does not mean it is actually wrong.


P.S. I have reported this act of necromancy in the hope that a moderator steps in to comment and close this.

Edited by Mystere, 25 February 2019 - 10:16 PM.

[Prototelis]

Mystere, on 25 February 2019 - 10:04 PM, said:

Do tell me how I can fully utilize all the dials, buttons, and switches (especially the 3-stage ones) on a Thrustmaster HOTAS

Easy. Don't play with a joystick.

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 10:33 PM, said:

Easy. Don't play with a joystick.

Which part of "dials, buttons, and switches" did you not comprehend?

[Prototelis]

Mystere, on 25 February 2019 - 10:37 PM, said:

Which part of "dials, buttons, and switches" did you not comprehend?

What part of the obv smartass comment didn't you understand?

[Mystere]

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 10:38 PM, said:

What part of the obv smartass comment didn't you understand?

You missed mine?

[Prototelis]

Nice recovery, we'll call this one a draw