17 replies to this topic

[Kreisel]

Let me start by saying, Modules are NOT End Game Content.

Modules are 'gear' or 'loot' that may help you face end game content but they are not in of themselves end game content. They are earned upgrades that give a competitive edge.

Community Warfare might be reasonably viewed as end game content. It's going to be a higher stakes game mode that you work your way up to by learning the game, leveling up, and earning the 'gear' you need in another mode that prepares you for the top end challenges of the game. It can be reasonably expected you enter this mode of play having learned how to play, owning 4 fully customized, mastered mechs, full equipped with modules. Playing that mode with anything less is an active choice to face the toughest challenges of the game without coming fully prepared, on the other hand you can't choose to do content where you will not face mechs with modules.

There are issues with the idea of 'End Game Content' that offers a statistical advantage in a PVP based game, like MWO. Stat based 'End game' is a PVE concept in which players make their way through one challenge after another, working up to more difficult content by earning the stats they need to take on bigger and more complex challenges. It's about making a player go through a progression to reach a final tier of content. When your only tiers of content are other players this becomes a problem, because there is no separation between 'End Game' and new or 'mid-level' players. Instead of facing challenges which are statistically designed to not require the earned 'end game' bonuses, players with no modules and new mechs are forced to fight players with fully customized mastered mechs with a full set of modules and consumables. This means, not only does the new player have the lack of experience to contend with but they are also actually stacked against foes who are literally more powerful. ELO helps with this, but frankly part of the problem is ELO does not account for placing players in different brackets based on if the mech is Basic, Elite, Mastered, or has all it's modules. There is no way for a new player to avoid facing 'End Game Content' which he/she is not yet prepared for.

This incentivizes earning those advantages as quickly as possible at the cost of branching out into new content (like more mechs) because you feel you need it to be competitive. It also discourages new players (who already have an uphill battle to learn the game while facing more experienced players) by added the frustration of consistently having weaker stats than the people they face for hours worth of gameplay. This creates a reverse progression of difficulty, where as you learn the game, the obstacles you face never grow, and because you become stronger while they remain the same, those situations actually require less skill and effort than when you started the game. As players this allows you to become lazy as you level up, rather than push you to get better at the game.

I'm not saying they don't have a place, but Modules are not 'end game content' they are reward for time played. End game content is increased complexity and challenges for experienced players who have learned how to handle it. It's something for players who have mastered the basic game and want something MORE. End game content is giving the modules to the mechs shooting AT you and saying 'okay, are you good enough now to take on this challenge and still win?' If modules are end game, MWO players are fighting endgame content from day one.

Edited by Kreisel, 16 October 2014 - 09:13 PM.

[Xarian]

Agree: modules aren't end-game content. They shouldn't be treated as such.

[Asmudius Heng]

I always disliked the term in general. It applies well to PVE MMO games.

I have not heard the term used by a PVP system before though so ... i am not sure.

CW to me seems more like end game content than modules though for sure.

[aniviron]

Most modules provide a fairly miniscule advantage- it doesn't really help all that much if you can climb hills that are two degrees steeper or cap 15% faster.

But there are enough modules like Radar Dep, Advanced Target Decay, and Seismic that anyone playing without them is playing at a disadvantage. I can't tell you the number of times I've spotted a blip on Seismic behind me, turned the corner to peek, and found a lance that was ready to crush our blob from behind; but I saw them, targeted, and now my teammates are turning. Ambush ruined. Can't tell you how many times I've poptarted in a Jenner with advanced target decay on to keep someone locked indefinitely for the LRM rain while only exposing myself every five seconds or so.

These are not small advantages, and should not be treated as such. And yet, any time modules come up in official word from PGI, it's always "end game content" and "that extra edge." It's not fair or fun for newer players, and weapon modules have only made it worse. Maybe it only gives me a 10% edge in a duel, but that's a 10% advantage for no tons and no crits, which hardly seems fair. It's one thing if everyone has modules and it's just a matter of which ones you choose. But that's not how it works; most players just don't have enough for them.

[MandyB]

I dont think he meant to type those words but i agree with his response that your mechs should be ready to go in the dropship, you shouldnt have time to swap stuff around before you drop. ( in CW)

[LordKnightFandragon]

Sheeeit, if there is any reason to view them as end game content its simply because of thier cost to obtain.....

I mean, after you have obtained and leveld all the mechs you want, fitted them out with w/e kit you want, and FINALLY decide you can start to focus on your modules, it might as well be end game content. Esp the more expensive ones that are 6mill and 15K GXP.........

[Salvag3]

Yeah they can be brutal, I have to wonder how many light and med pilots have lost their lives to my Twin Guass and duel Large pulse because of that 12% cool down I have for both they almost made it to cover .... Almost

[Alistair Winter]

Yeah, it's another case of PGI not really understanding the consequences of their business model. It's like when they used to call the Atlas DDC endgame content. They've finally understood that this won't work, so I guess we just have to hope they come to the same realization when it comes to modules.

In a game without actual tiers in matchmaking, in a game where people with thousands of matches played will be matched up against totally new players, 'endgame content' needs to be more about offering players different experiences that are no more or less viable than what is available to new players.

Like hero mechs. Hero mechs aren't supposed to be better or worse than standard mechs. They're just different. They offer a different experience.

The same should apply to modules. Either make them cheap enough that everyone has modules, or give all the modules significant drawbacks, so they just offer a new experience, new content, without giving a pure advantage.

[Tezcatli]

Until they add a per battle booster as an alternative to premium time. I'm always going to be behind on modules. I mean I never got to enjoy the Motion sensor module and I'm sure by the time I save for the Deprivation module, they'll either have nerfed LRMs or the module itself. I just can't play enough.

[Karl Streiger]

Tezcatli, on 17 October 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

Until they add a per battle booster as an alternative to premium time. I'm always going to be behind on modules. I mean I never got to enjoy the Motion sensor module and I'm sure by the time I save for the Deprivation module, they'll either have nerfed LRMs or the module itself. I just can't play enough.

The same here - and I really really hate that Wall Hack - called Seismic.
I made the long run with my mediocre Centurion - i know that i can't approach directly - i hide and move until I'm in the rear....

[Willard Phule]

Just curious....how can you have "end game content" with a "minimally viable product?"

[Lily from animove]

? End game content is what is the best you can reach at the end of a specific task. This also applies for end game PvP gear in any game including PvP.

So weapon modules are ver much midgame content, since they are rather cheap to get.
Mech modules with like 15k GXp, are by the time you need to gather those GXP very similar what End game content is.

Becaue to get it you need to go through a lot of effort first. Which is how all "eng game" content works no matter if PvP or PVE.

But our endgame content may need also some balance, Hill climb module 10%? a joke not even worth if it only were 3000GXP. Seismic? very much a massive deal in terms of information warfare. speed redemption, rly? not worth the slot thise little more speed doesn't saves your butt when you are legged (which doe snot even happens always). So more a niche module. Radar Derp. NIIIIICE (and not because of the LRM counter it also provides)
What about consumables? like improves UAV? they are nice basically, but on the opportunaty cost chart of not having a more valuable mechslot isn't worth it.

Modules should work different, they should all have stages to unlock and be cheaper to buy.
Soo lets say weapon modules 1 mio, mechmodules 2 mio.

then staged 1-5 like the weapon modules are, but instead of GXP they also should need some C-bills to unlock.
Why? because currently a pilot needs a lot of both, GXP AND C-bills to get a single moduls. So he will have none and suddenly all.
That doesn't makes sense and dividing them into ranges and making a lower c-bill access mark for modules will make newer pilots slowly progress though modules. Instead of going from zero to hero.

then we have also wepaon modules, cool wepaons like gauss are without downside, any Energyweapon module is a bit of a balance because the mech heats up faster meaning you alter the DPS curve of your mech instead of just imporving it by 12% which is the case for every ballistic build thats not involving 20's.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 October 2014 - 02:46 AM.

[Jetfire]

Yeah I think they should consider looking at it this way, as a mastery curve.

-Earning or buying 3 mechs of a single chassis is entry level mastery (mastery 0)
-Eliting/Mastering a chassis is low level mastery (mastery 3)
-Customizing that chassis's build is low mid level mastery (mastery 4)
-Mech Module and Consumable unlocking is mid level mastery (mastery 5)
-Repeat the prior for at least one chassis of each class is high level mastery (mastery 9)
-Weapon and low tier mech module unlocks are final mastery (mastery 10)

Mastery speaks more to the level you have maximized the capabilities of yourself as a pilot and the physical output of you mech. It relates to a learning curve.

End Game content is CW and the loyalty rewards and feeling of achievement from participating in it. If they ever add a medals system then your medals case could be considered end game content. End game is not a grind, it is the feeling of accomplishment that keeps you playing. Raid bosses in wow were end game content, not the loot you needed to kill them.

The issue here is that modules that are really rather potent and tie more into achieving mid level mastery are as expensive as a medium mech. The answer should be some more rewards at longer intervals now that there is a humongous CB and GXP sink available. Say the Cadet bonus at 25 games is repeated at 100 games but with a 1500-3500 GXP bonus added and call it the Veteran bonus and award it with a notice that COMSTAR or whoever recommends you purchase a mech module.

I feel like target deprivation, target decay and seismic should almost be offered to you like your first choice in pokemon. Pick one of the 3 starters that fits your play style best and go make your fortune catching more modules.

[Farix]

The reason that modules are end game content is that they requires a good deal of GXP, which a player acquires very slowly, and c-bills to obtain. The cheapest modules are 2 million, which is the same price as a small mech. And when players start out, they are going to focus on acquiring and upgrading their mechs.

The real problem isn't that they end game equipment, but that other players, like the OP, think that modules are solution to solve problems with in game mechanics, such as the lack of a 360 radar that comes standard on all mech or that losing LoS should immediately break a lock. If your best solution to dealing with a specific mechanic is to use a module, then there is a problem with the mechanic.

[Angel of Annihilation]

aniviron, on 16 October 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Most modules provide a fairly miniscule advantage- it doesn't really help all that much if you can climb hills that are two degrees steeper or cap 15% faster.

But there are enough modules like Radar Dep, Advanced Target Decay, and Seismic that anyone playing without them is playing at a disadvantage. I can't tell you the number of times I've spotted a blip on Seismic behind me, turned the corner to peek, and found a lance that was ready to crush our blob from behind; but I saw them, targeted, and now my teammates are turning. Ambush ruined. Can't tell you how many times I've poptarted in a Jenner with advanced target decay on to keep someone locked indefinitely for the LRM rain while only exposing myself every five seconds or so.

These are not small advantages, and should not be treated as such. And yet, any time modules come up in official word from PGI, it's always "end game content" and "that extra edge." It's not fair or fun for newer players, and weapon modules have only made it worse. Maybe it only gives me a 10% edge in a duel, but that's a 10% advantage for no tons and no crits, which hardly seems fair. It's one thing if everyone has modules and it's just a matter of which ones you choose. But that's not how it works; most players just don't have enough for them.

However I want to add one thing about Seismic and Radar Deprivation. Just about a week ago I dropped into my module equipped mech. After about maybe 6-8 matches I noticed something odd....no enemy mechs seemed to be showing up on Seismic. After I left that match I remembered something.....I had moved my set of modules to another mech the night before and forgot about it.

Point is, I ran 6-8 matches without noticing I was missing both Radar Dep and Sesimic. My stats and performance wasn't any lower either. Heck I even had one match where I managed 5 kills, 3 assists and 700 damage WITHOUT these modules. I mean while they are nice to have, obviously they aren't SO IMPORTANT that they are needed or else the fact they were missing would have been immediately noticed. So even those modules I don't consider more than just "Gear" and they are all items that should be priced accordingly.

Honestly module cost is one of the things I find frustrating about this game. I mean I own 41 mechs currently with another 15 on the way. All need modules but there is no way in hell I could ever afford that because we are talking over 500 million C-bills to outfit them. So instead I end up with 1 of each module and I am forced to swap them out each and every time I want to change mechs. I mean could they make things any more inconvenient and less fun if they tried?

[Karl Streiger]

Viktor Drake, on 17 October 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

However I want to add one thing about Seismic and Radar Deprivation. Just about a week ago I dropped into my module equipped mech. After about maybe 6-8 matches I noticed something odd....no enemy mechs seemed to be showing up on Seismic. After I left that match I remembered something.....I had moved my set of modules to another mech the night before and forgot about it.

Point is, I ran 6-8 matches without noticing I was missing both Radar Dep and Sesimic. My stats and performance wasn't any lower either. Heck I even had one match where I managed 5 kills, 3 assists and 700 damage WITHOUT these modules. I mean while they are nice to have, obviously they aren't SO IMPORTANT that they are needed or else the fact they were missing would have been immediately noticed. So even those modules I don't consider more than just "Gear" and they are all items that should be priced accordingly.

Honestly module cost is one of the things I find frustrating about this game. I mean I own 41 mechs currently with another 15 on the way. All need modules but there is no way in hell I could ever afford that because we are talking over 500 million C-bills to outfit them. So instead I end up with 1 of each module and I am forced to swap them out each and every time I want to change mechs. I mean could they make things any more inconvenient and less fun if they tried?

different point of view.
nobody did sneak at your rear because Seismic sensors make this movement in most cases senseless
. so your module was not needed simple because it exist
same could be said about Radar Dep - you only see that they work if they are not there.
If the other team didn't use UAVs or Target Decay or what ever - you would not need Radar Dep

same could be said about Nukes - because you have them its unlikely that you use them

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 October 2014 - 05:11 AM.

[Kreisel]

Farix, on 17 October 2014 - 03:17 AM, said:

The reason that modules are end game content is that they requires a good deal of GXP, which a player acquires very slowly, and c-bills to obtain. The cheapest modules are 2 million, which is the same price as a small mech. And when players start out, they are going to focus on acquiring and upgrading their mechs.

The real problem isn't that they end game equipment, but that other players, like the OP, think that modules are solution to solve problems with in game mechanics, such as the lack of a 360 radar that comes standard on all mech or that losing LoS should immediately break a lock. If your best solution to dealing with a specific mechanic is to use a module, then there is a problem with the mechanic.

I never claimed that modules were the solution to in game mechanic problems, my point is that players with them have and advantage over players who do not have them. When added to the Mastery system new players are significantly outclassed in the power of the mechs available to them compared to those of the people they face.

Lets compare a new mech, or a trial mech to one with that has mastery and modules. As opposed to the players he faces a new player's mech has:

• 15% worse heat dissipation (possibly more because he needs DHS)
  
• 20% lower max heat
  
• 45% Slower acceleration
  
• 50% Slower deceleration
  
• 20% Less torso twist
  
• 20% slower torso twist
  
• 20% worse turning speed
  
• 30% Slower arms
  
• 33% Slower start up and shut down
  
• 15% slower convergence (if that's still even a thing)
  
• 10% Slower max speed
  
• 17% longer weapons cooldowns (with module, 5% without)
  
• Roughly ~10% Less range on a weapon type
  
• missing out on 2 additional utility effects (each the equivalent or better of raising a stat by 25%)
  
• Possibly having less available tonnage on the mech due to no FF, Endo, XL Engine.

Even a single Light mech is going to cost roughly 10,000,000 C-bills to buy and properly outfit with FF, Endo, DHS, XL engine. (I priced it out on a Jenner: 10,071,728 cbills). So It's going to be at-least 25 games before a new player can start to even out those statistical disadvantages. 8 Million c-Bills for the Cadet bonus and 2.5 Million if we are kind and average them at 100,000 cbills a match (which might be high because a new player is going to make more mistakes while learning the game and has a weaker mech, expect more losses with that uphill battle). Lets say those matchs are fast, 6 minutes each (10 games an hour), that's 2 and a half hours of gameplay to get a single 'basic' mastery mech with 1 module slot and no cbills to put anything in that slot. It's another 20 hours of gameplay to earn the other 2 mechs needed for 'Elite' and an additional 3 Hours per weapon module, another 6 Per 'good' Mech module. We are talking about 40.5 hours of gameplay for a new player to have ONE MECH with stats even to the people who he is fighting... That's a large investment of time in a frustrating state where the fights you are in are 'not fair.' Chances of such a player sticking around and converting to a paying customer... kind of low.

It's a free to play game so most people wont invest money up front, not until they have tried the game and decided they like it. Even so, lets say someone buys a Mastery package off the bat, the normal mech is going to need upgrades, The cadet bonus will be enough to cover those, 2.5 Hours for 3 workable mechs... not to bad. In this case General XP becomes the time limiting factor to getting modules, after a few hours of play and c-bills to spare but not enough g-xp for the modules, a new mech starts to look pretty tempting... you push buying modules off and we are back to multiple hours worth of play to earn each module, hours in which other players have an advantage over you.

Edited by Kreisel, 17 October 2014 - 10:01 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Karl Streiger, on 17 October 2014 - 05:10 AM, said:

different point of view.
nobody did sneak at your rear because Seismic sensors make this movement in most cases senseless
. so your module was not needed simple because it exist
same could be said about Radar Dep - you only see that they work if they are not there.
If the other team didn't use UAVs or Target Decay or what ever - you would not need Radar Dep

same could be said about Nukes - because you have them its unlikely that you use them

The point I am making is that while I consider that those modules offer an advantage, obviously the advantage isn't huge or game breaking if you don't have the modules mounted. Basically unlike some people try to make it out, modules aren't needed which is yet another reason why the cost of 3-6 million C-bills each is outrageous. For that kind of cost I would expect fairly significant improvements which none of the modules really provide.