21 replies to this topic

[D04S02B04]

That's one thing I didn't understand about people being upset with 4 PPC stalkers. Granted I did not play MWO at the time when ghost heat wasn't implemented and PPC Heat was 8, with the current quirks that Awesome was given in the last Mech Quirks, stronger CT and better cooling etc.

AWS-8Q

With the new quirks that will come in, it makes this PPC boat even more viable. It is a reliable long range fire support with the ability to 1 shot light mechs (CT or Leg) with an alpha strike.

[Brody319]

actually it was 6 ppc stalkers. They could bring enough heatsinks and it let them alpha, which would destroy a lot of mechs in one shot.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Brody319, on 22 October 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

actually it was 6 ppc stalkers. They could bring enough heatsinks and it let them alpha, which would destroy a lot of mechs in one shot.

This and the Awesome's always been literally built around PPCs, whereas the Stalker has not.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Hardpoint location is also a factor.

[Christof Romulus]

Quote

4X Ppc Awesome Is Okay But Not 4X Ppc Stalker?

Yeah, that's about the size of it.

Here's the deal - the stalker has all of it's energy hardpoints, effectively, high - torso mounted. What this means is, regardless of convergence, the shots are going to land relatively close together, and the Stalker can achieve that shot while it's body is mostly behind cover.

The Awesome has its energy hardpoints low and wide. This is the exact opposite of the stalker - the PPC's can be obstructed by nearly any terrain, or allies who happen to be nearby, and in order to fire these PPCs the Awesome has to expose itself to return fire.

In addition, it's freakin' LORE. The Awesome was specifically constructed to sling PPC. The Stalker was designed to be a superior weapons platform.

[Bront]

Back in the hay day, 4 PPC Stalkers could fire all 4 from a high mount point, where the points had good convergence, and blow stuff up. Meanwhile, the 4 PPC Awesome was a barn door that died when anyone shot back, and it had to expose itself to fire.

Now, since you can't really fire 4 PPCs at a time, both builds are less of an issue, but since the Awesome traditionally carried PPCs, it makes sense that it's the mech that gets the most out of them.

[Alistair Winter]

Because the Awesome is not a good mech. Part of the reason can be seen below. Which one do you think makes a better hill humping PPC sniper? Which one has higher weapon mounts? Which one has more tonnage, more armour? Which one has bigger side torsos?

[Torgun]

The Awesome has to reveal a lot more of the mech to fire those PPCs, while the Stalker is just barely peeking over a ridge and could already fire all the PPCs over it. And let's not forget how much worse PPCs are these days with both more heat and way slower travel speed. I doubt 4xPPC Stalker with no ghost heat would be that good anymore.

[IllCaesar]

The stock 8Q and 9M has on PPC in the LT, RT, and RA. They're not concentrated in the same location, and the closest you could get to Stalker PPC-sniping would only be possible on the 8Q by putting two PPCs in each side torso, but its got terrible hardpoints for hill-humping, all the PPCs being low-mounted.

The Awesome just is made differently than the Stalker. The two ones in question were made for long-range engagements with little cover in long deployments so that ammo wouldn't be a concern. Thats why the PPCs fit so well on it. Now how much of that applies to Mechwarrior Online? Not much. They might fit in very well in CW, but they're weak in the metagame as is, and even if the PPC speed didn't suck and even if there wasn't ghost heat, the Awesome 8Q and 9M would make have a chance to make it to Tier 4, but not Tier 3.

The PPC quirks increase the viability of a chassis where 5/6th of the variants are Tier 5 without doing anything to make PPCs viable for other mechs, and it fits well canonically.

Edited by MarsAtlas, 22 October 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Lucky Noob]

Its simply.... drive an Awesome and you know why...

[D04S02B04]

I do drive the Awesome. It was my first Assault mech (outside of the rest of the Meta Mechs)

I disagree with most of the comments about hill humping. With the exception of Frozen City, it is more relevant to shoot around corners than hill hump because not only does it provide cover and faster target withdrawal (Add torso twisting speed to sideways movement back to cover), it also often provides cover from LRM fire because you're peeking around high terrain.

With regards to convergence, if you look at how I placed the PPCs on the awesome, there isn't really a convergence issue and it allows you to shield with one side as well. Mounting 2x PPCs in the arms allow faster tracking of light mechs and with the faster torso twist speed of the Awesome vs Stalker and wider twist range, I think the awesome is way better in this regard and poses a different type of problem but similar in scope to what the stalker used to do.

[Glythe]

Why just not slap a "you cannot fire more than 3 PPCs ever" mechanism into the game. If you fire 2 and have 2 more.... you fire the third and the 4th doesn't have enough juice to go off.

Problem solved.

Also let's talk about that lore. The Awesome was 3 ppcs if I recall. Also in the lore if you shoot PPCs at close range they can blow up... but not in this game. Let's put that back in and then whine about the lore.

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Glythe, on 22 October 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Why just not slap a "you cannot fire more than 3 PPCs ever" mechanism into the game. If you fire 2 and have 2 more.... you fire the third and the 4th doesn't have enough juice to go off.

Problem solved.

Also let's talk about that lore. The Awesome was 3 ppcs if I recall. Also in the lore if you shoot PPCs at close range they can blow up... but not in this game. Let's put that back in and then whine about the lore.

Never heard of PPCs exploding shooting at a target that was too close. But then again, that didn't happen given they had a minimum range. Only weapon explosion I recall is a critical on a Gauss that gets hit once damage gets to internals.

Maybe later on, but not in original BT.

[FupDup]

Brody319, on 22 October 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

actually it was 6 ppc stalkers. They could bring enough heatsinks and it let them alpha, which would destroy a lot of mechs in one shot.

The 4 PPC and 2 PPC + 2 ERPPC variants were much more effective than 6 PPC versions. By a big margin.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

So you fire them in pairs? Okay. So that's essentially 20 damage a trigger pull for 20 heat. Cool. So it's essentially a really hot AC20 Jager with terribad hitboxes. And you can't alpha, because your heat cap is 62 and that alpha is 73.

That's hardly OP.

[Mycrus]

D04S02B04, on 22 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

I do drive the Awesome. It was my first Assault mech (outside of the rest of the Meta Mechs)

I disagree with most of the comments about hill humping. With the exception of Frozen City, it is more relevant to shoot around corners than hill hump because not only does it provide cover and faster target withdrawal (Add torso twisting speed to sideways movement back to cover), it also often provides cover from LRM fire because you're peeking around high terrain.

With regards to convergence, if you look at how I placed the PPCs on the awesome, there isn't really a convergence issue and it allows you to shield with one side as well. Mounting 2x PPCs in the arms allow faster tracking of light mechs and with the faster torso twist speed of the Awesome vs Stalker and wider twist range, I think the awesome is way better in this regard and poses a different type of problem but similar in scope to what the stalker used to do.

So you are saying the awesome is better than the Stalker?

Lulwut.

[1453 R]

Short answer to the original question?

Yes. Lorehounds say the 4xPPC Awesome is okay and the 4xPPC stalker is not because the Awesome is a PPC 'Mech and the Stalker is not.

Game mechanics say the 4xPPC Awesome is okay(ish...) because the Awesome is fat and wide and makes a stupidly easy target, thus offering some counterbalance to having a ridiculous alpha potential, whilst the Stalker is one of the most durable 'Mechs in the game and also has a very narrow frontal profile and Jager-height energy hardpoints in its stubby little hard-to-shoot-off arms.

6xPPC Stalkers were never anything more than a gag build and I still don't understand why people talk about them like they're the Bogeyman. They were no better in their time than Direstars are today, and however lawltastic a Direstar alpha is, however bad it sucks to receive a Direstar alpha, the builds in question are both garbage for actually winning matches/getting paid.

[Jetfire]

1453 R, on 22 October 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

6xPPC Stalkers were never anything more than a gag build and I still don't understand why people talk about them like they're the Bogeyman. They were no better in their time than Direstars are today, and however lawltastic a Direstar alpha is, however bad it sucks to receive a Direstar alpha, the builds in question are both garbage for actually winning matches/getting paid.

Yes, but allowing cheese builds invites a troll Meta which while not competitive play worthy will see lots of play in the regular queues. When 6ppc stalkers existed I saw them enough to make me despise them. Allowing long range pinpoint 60 point alpha's just has to be a no-no in this game. Regardless of how good it may or may not be at high level play. 40 points of damage should pretty much be a good upper bound for pinpoint alpha and most mechs should struggle to do 30 points making the sniper mechs a little more unique.

[1453 R]

Jetfire, on 22 October 2014 - 05:27 PM, said:

Yes, but allowing cheese builds invites a troll Meta which while not competitive play worthy will see lots of play in the regular queues. When 6ppc stalkers existed I saw them enough to make me despise them. Allowing long range pinpoint 60 point alpha's just has to be a no-no in this game. Regardless of how good it may or may not be at high level play. 40 points of damage should pretty much be a good upper bound for pinpoint alpha and most mechs should struggle to do 30 points making the sniper mechs a little more unique.

Which is why we got Ghost Heat. As Russ said in his Town Hall, Ghost Heat was their answer to the players saying "It is never okay for me to get shot by a 6xPPC Stalker, no matter how bad or trolly 6xPPC Stalkers are. I don't want to see them, get rid of them, and I don't care what else you have to ruin to do it."

So thanks for that, I guess. I'm used to Ghost Heat now, and have accepted it as the devil we can't get rid of, but I really, truly would have preferred a more elegant solution, like the dozen-odd player created systems I've seen since Ghost Heat's introduction.

Maybe next time people won't feed-the-trolls their way into crippling half the game.

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

The awesome is better than the stalker in that you can torso twist and use your arms to shield your side torsos.

Whereas torso twisting in a stalker always leaves one side torso in plain sight.

I've seen people intentionally shoot the stalkers arm when it tries to torso twist. Don't do it. The stalkers arms have just as much armor as the side torsos. Not to mention you gain a 2x component and weapon bonus demolishing the stalkers side torsos, a much better bonus than you would gain demolishing its arms.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 22 October 2014 - 07:17 PM.