31 replies to this topic

[Willard Phule]

IraqiWalker, on 24 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

You don't seem to have an idea of what a team is. That mentality is the same individualistic one that causes Rambo syndrome. If you want ECM on your team, then either ask someone to bring it, or bring it yourself. That's what it means to be in a team, you all work for the better of the group. Not the individual.

I'm glad things work well for you in the Group Queue.

In the Solo Queue, none of this works. Ever. In the Solo Queue, on your 12 man team, odds are fairly good that:

- 3 or 4 guys don't speak a common language with the rest of the team
- If your team has an ECM light, don't expect it to scout or share the ECM. Odds are reasonably good that it's got an ERPPC or a couple of ERLLs and will be ineffectively sniping away all match
- The entire team will charge for the first red triangle they see, regardless of weight class, and waste half it's ammo trying to take down a squirrel......turning it's collective back on the enemy so they can get wiped from behind.

IraqiWalker, on 24 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

I've had over 300 drops in my COM-2D where I dealt 0 damage, or less than 50. But I won the match for our team. Because that's what the team demanded of me. I didn't go "but I want to get damage, so I can get C-Bills" No. I did what was asked of me, and my team won every single one of those 300 drops. I made little to no C-Bills, but when working as a team, we don't care about C-Bills, or damage numbers, we care about results, those being winning, or losing. I (or any of my unit mates) will never put our selves ahead of the team. We will not compromise the team's chance of winning, because we want to be in the spot light.

In the Solo Queue, it's all about the cbills. Seriously. You can thank the Group Queue for how the rewards are set up....PGI has based most of their changes and tweaks based on performance suggestions from the group players...not the solo ones.

IraqiWalker, on 24 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

THAT is the difference between someone working with the team, and you. ECM is not needed for winning, it helps, but the MM shouldn't really care about it. You want ECM on your team, bring it. Or ask someone else to bring it. Otherwise, you're just a bunch of PuGs that are dropping together, and NOT a team.

First of all, the term "team" is misleading in the Solo Queue. A "team" is NOT 12 people working together....that's a "herd." I call it a "herd" because, eventually, they're going to stop following each other and working as a unit. As soon as a light squirrel comes barreling through your formation, half of them (including the assaults) will turn and chase it.

IraqiWalker, on 24 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

Again, learn to work as a team, not a bunch of solo individuals running together. You're no different from solo players if you keep that mentality. In fact, that exact method of thinking causes too much disparity in skill and performance levels in the group queue.

I can't emphasize this enough.....there is no TEAM in the solo queue unless you're sync-dropping with others. You get what the MM gives you, which most of the time is a bunch of low Elo players used to even out the team's average.

IraqiWalker, on 24 October 2014 - 02:06 AM, said:

You don't need to run ECM mechs all the time. I do full lance drops without a single ECM mech in there, we still do fine (probably because we know to focus the ECM mech first). Or if need be, I or anyone else on the team bring ECM. If your team wants to force you, and only you to run ECM mechs, then they are not a team. I've had matches where I didn't want to run my ECM mechs, because I was leveling something else up, and all it took was for me to ask someone else to bring ECM instead.

Dude, in the solo queue, it isn't exactly about "who has the most ECM," it's more about how it's used. Let's say both teams have 3 ECM lights. Team A's ECM lights stick with all the LRM boats and cover them the entire match. Team B's ECM lights all run about, individually, trying to snipe with ERLLs.

Team B's ECM lights have given up any bonuses for scouting/spotting as soon as they engage with their ERLLs (as if new players will ever get this). Team A is probably going to win this one simply because of the un-counterable rain of LRMs coming from them. That's how it works in the Solo Queue (also keep in mind that there are so many Clan mechs out there that don't even bother to carry an active probe. New players don't understand the little things like that).

[Livewyr]

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2014 - 02:27 AM, said:

Here's what gets me.....

There are SO many ways to shut down ECM but it seems the one that gets picked the most is "whine about it on the forums, maybe Paul will take his Hockey Racquet to it."

Here is the answer to your question.. in two parts.
Number 1: ECM's effect is unlimited. You cannot target it at 201 meters. You cannot target it at 2,001 meters. You cannot target it at 20,001m.
ECM's counters are not. You have:
BAP (150m)
ECCM (180 or 250, but I think 180m)
NARC (600m, I think) Good luck hitting a quick target at 600 meters with it.
TAG(750) Must stare at mech.
ER/PPC (1600-1800m) Same as NARC- and only lasts 4 seconds.

So that's one. (Unlimited range of stealth- limited range of counters.)

Number 2: Except for the shortest ranged counters. (150/180m) All of ECM's counters are active- meaning you have to point and click, hit him, or hold it on them. ECM has no such requirement: the only clicking you need to do for ECM to work.. is in the mechlab. Once.

Ergo- not balanced..and why you keep seeing these threads popping up to demand that MM balance the equipment. (Which should tell you something.)

[5th Fedcom Rat]

The disparity in NARC is getting to become more important than ECM lately. Given that if a NARC lands on you and enemy has LRMs, it's a bloody death sentence.

[Livewyr]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 24 October 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

The disparity in NARC is getting to become more important than ECM lately. Given that if a NARC lands on you and enemy has LRMs, it's a bloody death sentence.

ECM should always counter narc.

[Kjudoon]

Just a few technical points RE Lurm usage, Willard brought up.

1. LRMs are not fire and forget. No lock, they go dumm and hit the last known location. Remember this and your damage and effectiveness will increase.

2. Zoom does help increase the ability to lock target AT TIMES, particularly at long range and when combating ECM that can shrink the actual 'locking square' required to get targeting. Yes, that square is not always what you must aim at, but sometimes, a target point somewhere inside of it, and not always the center. Once you hold lock on that small spot, much like aiming for the cockpit, you get a lock very fast. More towards the edge, and you gain lock much more slowly if at all. So zoom in and out at times, and when you have a hard time forcing the lock, zoom in. It might help.

That's all.

Livewyr, on 24 October 2014 - 02:59 AM, said:

ECM should always counter narc.

Narc is designed to short out ECM for a short period of time. That's what finally made Narc worthwhile to use. That and it's not clinging to the mech as effectively as a post-it note in a hurricane.

[Willard Phule]

Livewyr, on 24 October 2014 - 02:52 AM, said:

Here is the answer to your question.. in two parts.
Number 1: ECM's effect is unlimited. You cannot target it at 201 meters. You cannot target it at 2,001 meters. You cannot target it at 20,001m.
ECM's counters are not. You have:
BAP (150m)
ECCM (180 or 250, but I think 180m)
NARC (600m, I think) Good luck hitting a quick target at 600 meters with it.
TAG(750) Must stare at mech.
ER/PPC (1600-1800m) Same as NARC- and only lasts 4 seconds.

So that's one. (Unlimited range of stealth- limited range of counters.)

Number 2: Except for the shortest ranged counters. (150/180m) All of ECM's counters are active- meaning you have to point and click, hit him, or hold it on them. ECM has no such requirement: the only clicking you need to do for ECM to work.. is in the mechlab. Once.

Ergo- not balanced..and why you keep seeing these threads popping up to demand that MM balance the equipment. (Which should tell you something.)

Right, but........

The Active Probe is probably THE best counter to ECM. Granted, I'm referring specifically to Clan mechs here but the theory applies to IS as well. With Clan mechs, the CLRMs have no minimum range. If you get in close to an ECM mech, you shut him down (and light him and anyone near him up for anyone that may have followed you) and use the CLRMs like SSRMs. Works real well.

Narc/Tag/ERPPC stuff works but you rarely see it. And even when you do, 80% of your team won't notice the wifi or window symbols.....they're stationary, zoomed in and fixated on a different target.

Bringing your own ECM mech and setting it to "counter" is great.....but, unfortunately, is HARD. It's just has hard as unzooming to move....in a lot of cases, it requires you to remember what key you set it to and then you have to look at your hands to do it (remember, the "no Elo" solo queue has a LOT of new players in it). Never expect anyone on your team to be anywhere close to competent....sounds crappy, but it's the safest mindset to have.

[Livewyr]

Kjudoon, on 24 October 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

Narc is designed to short out ECM for a short period of time. That's what finally made Narc worthwhile to use. That and it's not clinging to the mech as effectively as a post-it note in a hurricane.

No, NARC was not designed to short out ECM. That was an afterthought that PGI did.

Willard Phule, on 24 October 2014 - 03:34 AM, said:

Right, but........

The Active Probe is probably THE best counter to ECM. Granted, I'm referring specifically to Clan mechs here but the theory applies to IS as well. With Clan mechs, the CLRMs have no minimum range. If you get in close to an ECM mech, you shut him down (and light him and anyone near him up for anyone that may have followed you) and use the CLRMs like SSRMs. Works real well.

Narc/Tag/ERPPC stuff works but you rarely see it. And even when you do, 80% of your team won't notice the wifi or window symbols.....they're stationary, zoomed in and fixated on a different target.

Bringing your own ECM mech and setting it to "counter" is great.....but, unfortunately, is HARD. It's just has hard as unzooming to move....in a lot of cases, it requires you to remember what key you set it to and then you have to look at your hands to do it (remember, the "no Elo" solo queue has a LOT of new players in it). Never expect anyone on your team to be anywhere close to competent....sounds crappy, but it's the safest mindset to have.

BAP/CAP is the best counter to ECM...if you are knife fighting.

But that is just my point- ECM is overpowered even with all of the "counters."

[Kjudoon]

Livewyr, on 24 October 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

No, NARC was not designed to short out ECM. That was an afterthought that PGI did.

I never said it was lore. That's been chucked out the window long ago. This was the best modification to Narc possible as it made the whole system worth something. Before this change, you NEVER saw Narc except on new guys or those trying to figure out if Narc was worth anything (and it wasn't before the buff). Now you see it about half as much if not only a third as much as you see ECM.

[Livewyr]

Kjudoon, on 24 October 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

I never said it was lore. That's been chucked out the window long ago. This was the best modification to Narc possible as it made the whole system worth something. Before this change, you NEVER saw Narc except on new guys or those trying to figure out if Narc was worth anything (and it wasn't before the buff). Now you see it about half as much if not only a third as much as you see ECM.

Within the Broken system of ECM, yes, it was a good modification to NARC. (although I think NARC's increased popularity is more a result of having it just be timed, and for a fairly lengthy time, instead of damage limited...along with increased range.)

[Willard Phule]

Livewyr, on 24 October 2014 - 05:18 AM, said:

No, NARC was not designed to short out ECM. That was an afterthought that PGI did.



BAP/CAP is the best counter to ECM...if you are knife fighting.

That's sort of my point. Even in the Solo Queue, you can be assured that your team will rush like lemmings to the first red triangle they see. Hell, they chase Spiders with Dire Wolves in the Solo Queue.

But, if you've got BAP/CAP and you're tangling with any ECM mech ( especially if it's a D-DC LRM boat), you light the guy up for the rest of your team. When they see that red triangle.......well.....best to get out of the way of the indescriminately firing, zoomed in and stumbling over everything herd stampeding your way. Just stay close enough to keep him shut down.

[Lykaon]

Lotharian, on 23 October 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

wow... no.

PGI is touting an intelligent match maker... then ECM should definitely be part of the equation. No one wants to run ecm mechs all day, they are fairly limited. You can take your idea of TEAM and cram it right up your pixel if you think everyone should bring their own ecm. If PGI wanted to tune the match maker, evening out ecm would help more than picking who won the last match and putting them with someone who lost.

The root of the problem is an over featured ECM mechanic that creates significant advantages for simply having it and serious deficencies if you don't.

There were several mistakes made when ECM was developed for MWo.

1) ECM was deployed BEFORE the systems it should have been a counter for were (BAP,Artemis,NARC) As a result ECM was given features it should never have been granted to create a function for ECM.As a result we now have Bizzarro world ECM where NARC and BAP counter ECM.

2) ECM should never have been used as a counter measure or balance factor for locking missiles (SSRM and LRM) These weapons should have been balanced within the framework of being a weapon system and not simply hard countered so any problems with balance were obfuscated and sweep under a rug.

3) ECM pretty much defined the entire information warfare pillar of MWo when it was introduced.As a result the entire development of information warfare is shackled to a poorly designed ECM feature.A faulty foundation is going to produce a faulty structure.

So,since ECM should be redesigned anyhow why alter even more features to suit the faulty ECM design?

[Godfrey Kasparov]

I was saying that ecm needs to be taken to account when MM is concerned ...I have a B tester who just came back and he already has seen the effects of the ecm disparity // if one team has 3 and the other zero ( im not talking 12 man ...4 man mixed groups )...well its pretty much a done deal . I love playing my DDC but not every single match ..... MM needs to spread the love when it comes to ecm capable mechs ...that's a simple fix imo

Edited by Godfrey Kasparov, 24 October 2014 - 02:10 PM.