98 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lucian Nostra, on 23 October 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Because they know they can charge more for clan mechs.. no other reason

Honestly this.

It is kind of BS but they knew going in that the Clans were hugely popular so they took advantage of it bu charging 33% more for each clan mech and we ate it up. Now us Clanners are stuck paying 33% more for each and every Clan based pre-purchase package that comes out which isn't really fair if you think about it, at least not in a game that is going to be pitting Clans against IS. In that match up, IS players get a huge advantage. I guess you could say it is the penalty cost we Clanners pay for our OP mechs, which consequently are slowly getting nerfed to oblivious after we have paid this premium.

That being said, it is any wonder why some people are upset that Clan mechs aren't performing more like they did in Lore. I mean with a 33% increase in cost, they should be at least 33% better right??

As for me, it is kind of a sore point but as a Business and Marketing professional, I intellectually understand why they did it so it is hard for me to get totaly mad about it. I have just accepted that having to pay through the nose for Clan mechs if I want to pre-purchase them is just the price I have to pay if I want to be a Clanner.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 24 October 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Ultimax]

Viktor Drake, on 24 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

That being said, it is any wonder why some people are upset that Clan mechs aren't performing more like they did in Lore. I mean with a 33% increase in cost, they should be at least 33% better right??

Take another look at the IS pack mechs:

Most of them have Standard Engines, Standard Armor, Standard Structures & Single Heat Sinks.



Now take a look at all of the Clan Mechs:

Clan XL Engines, many with Endo, many with Ferro, all of them Dual Heat Sinks and all of them removable Omni-pods (which have their own value).


The reason you pay more for the clan packs is because they come pre-upgraded with all/most of those things.

You are paying in MC for those upgrades, IS pack gives you the choice to pay in cbills post purchase - but most people will be investing in those upgrades.



I guarantee you any Clan mech straight out of the pack is way better than 33% vs. any of those IS mechs straight out of the pack.

Standard Heatsinks alone will guarantee that.

[DAYLEET]

All the fixed JJ and Fixed engine in the world can't nerf the clan gear, small crit space taken, smaller weight, missiles that blind, can lose torso on xl, can change pods to make the mech you want even on the one with a cbill boost.

Better color selection on the pack for clan too, im pretty sure i already own all those in the IS pack where theres at least 5 colors that look original in the Clan pack. I have good hope for Davion white and Marik white though and Rasal yellow just might be the IronGrid yellow ive been waiting for.

Edited by DAYLEET, 24 October 2014 - 12:53 PM.

[Calamus]

EgoSlayer, on 24 October 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

It's not a fallacy argument when the source is the people setting the prices.

And your post above needs to total the base price of all the 3 variants at each tier in C-Bills total that up, then compare them to the all the clan C-Bill variant price totals. The Clans will be substantially more. If they should be more in C-Bills is subject to debate, but the fact is they are more in C-Bills.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did it from the C-Bill Clans that are available today vs the Phoenix Pack

Light:	Price			
LCT-1V	1388242				Kit-Fox-P	6008129
LCT-3M	1777326				Kit-Fox-D	5949429
LCT-3S	1589282				Kit-fox-S	5848129
				
Medium:				
SHD-2H	4356283				StormCrow-P	11113382
SHD-2D2	4473235				StormCrow-C	11139367
SHD-5M	8166799				StormCrow-D	11187742
				
Heavy:				
TDR-5S	5241175				Summoner-P	14071353
TDR-5SS	5188055				Summoner-B	14069481
TDR-9SE	5835993				Summoner-D	13899241
				
Assault:				
BLR-1G	7703709				DireWolf-P	17785963
BLR-1D	7363725				DireWolf-A	17149906
BLR-1S	7452829				DireWolf-B	17838493
 
 
			IS			   	  Clan				
Totals		$60,536,653.00			$146,060,615.00
Average/Mech	$5,044,721.08			$12,171,717.92

So Clan prices in C-Bills are about 2.4x the price of IS mechs in these packs.

That means literally nothing. Here is why:

those Cbill prices were all set based on a much more powerful version of clan mechs. Like, when it was reasonable that tehy cost more.

That is no longer the case. The value has been reduced, while the price has remained the same.

Also consider this: When those prices were set it had not been announced that Faction players were restricted to piloting faction mechs. A lot of things have changed regarding clan mechs. In fact, almost everything has changed - EXCEPT THEIR PRICE.

this is why that argument is a fallacy.

Ultimatum X, on 24 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Take another look at the IS pack mechs:

Most of them have Standard Engines, Standard Armor, Standard Structures & Single Heat Sinks.



Now take a look at all of the Clan Mechs:

Clan XL Engines, many with Endo, many with Ferro, all of them Dual Heat Sinks and all of them removable Omni-pods (which have their own value).


The reason you pay more for the clan packs is because they come pre-upgraded with all/most of those things.

You are paying in MC for those upgrades, IS pack gives you the choice to pay in cbills post purchase - but most people will be investing in those upgrades.



I guarantee you any Clan mech straight out of the pack is way better than 33% vs. any of those IS mechs straight out of the pack.

Standard Heatsinks alone will guarantee that.

Read my post on page 3. I rebutted everything you just said before you even said it.

[Walluh]

Clan mechs come with XLs, endosteel, ferro, and double heatsinks built in.

IS mechs do not.

That's why they cost more. Add the upgrade costs to an IS mech up and clan mechs won't be far off.

[EgoSlayer]

Calamus, on 24 October 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

That means literally nothing. Here is why:

those Cbill prices were all set based on a much more powerful version of clan mechs. Like, when it was reasonable that tehy cost more.

That is no longer the case. The value has been reduced, while the price has remained the same.

Also consider this: When those prices were set it had not been announced that Faction players were restricted to piloting faction mechs. A lot of things have changed regarding clan mechs. In fact, almost everything has changed - EXCEPT THEIR PRICE.

this is why that argument is a fallacy.

It means nothing to *you*, it means everything to the people setting the prices. See "Monster Cable" above. They can charge more because they are Clan, not because they are better. We knew before the purchase they were not going to be straight out better - different but balanced against the IS tech we had. It doesn't matter if they are better in TT and cost 1, 5, or 10 times as much. In MWO they cost about 240% more because they are *Clan*. That's it. No fallacy involved.


And anyone who thought they were going to be playing for the IS in CW using clan mechs was fooling themselves, that has nothing to do with anything.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 24 October 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Aresye]

Ultimatum X, on 24 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Take another look at the IS pack mechs:

Most of them have Standard Engines, Standard Armor, Standard Structures & Single Heat Sinks.



Now take a look at all of the Clan Mechs:

Clan XL Engines, many with Endo, many with Ferro, all of them Dual Heat Sinks and all of them removable Omni-pods (which have their own value).

Which would be all fine and dandy except:

We have NO CHOICE in the manner.

Perhaps Clan mechs should be given the option to manipulate their upgrades. Hell, they could make it so that Clan mechs have to be upgraded once bought before they can be used in games. I'm all cool with that, for I could at least put my 300,000,000 CBills to some form of use.

Inner Sphere mechs have the luxury of NOT having to pay REAL MONEY for upgrades that are available for fake money.

If we're really going to use this argument as to why players that want to play Clan for CW must spend more IRL money, then IS mechs should be given all the upgrades from the start. Then they can cost the same IRL money as Clan packages, with the option of removing the upgrades once they own the mech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

EgoSlayer, on 24 October 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

It's not a fallacy argument when the source is the people setting the prices.

And your post above needs to total the base price of all the 3 variants at each tier in C-Bills total that up, then compare them to the all the clan C-Bill variant price totals. The Clans will be substantially more. If they should be more in C-Bills is subject to debate, but the fact is they are more in C-Bills.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did it from the C-Bill Clans that are available today vs the Phoenix Pack

Light:	Price			
LCT-1V	1388242				Kit-Fox-P	6008129
LCT-3M	1777326				Kit-Fox-D	5949429
LCT-3S	1589282				Kit-fox-S	5848129
				
Medium:				
SHD-2H	4356283				StormCrow-P	11113382
SHD-2D2	4473235				StormCrow-C	11139367
SHD-5M	8166799				StormCrow-D	11187742
				
Heavy:				
TDR-5S	5241175				Summoner-P	14071353
TDR-5SS	5188055				Summoner-B	14069481
TDR-9SE	5835993				Summoner-D	13899241
				
Assault:				
BLR-1G	7703709				DireWolf-P	17785963
BLR-1D	7363725				DireWolf-A	17149906
BLR-1S	7452829				DireWolf-B	17838493
 
 
			IS			   	  Clan				
Totals		$60,536,653.00			$146,060,615.00
Average/Mech	$5,044,721.08			$12,171,717.92

So Clan prices in C-Bills are about 2.4x the price of IS mechs in these packs.

I see it both ways. Part of what you are buying with the Clan packages are mechs that all come standard with XL engines and DHS. For the IS player this is usually about a 5-7 million C-bill investment per mech so in one way your are getting alot more C-bill value with Clan mech packages than you are IS mech packages.

However, unlike the Clan mechs, I can choose to only buy one (1) 350XL engine and swap that one (1) engine between all my Grasshoppers. Heck I might even be able to use that one (1) engine on the Zeus too or I might even have one of those engines laying around in my inventory. In my case I have three 350XLs that I already swap between my Victors and Battlemasters so using those on the Grasshopper and Zeus would cost me exactly ZERO extra C-bills.

In any case the point is that while the packages might on the surface seem like your getting more with the Clan mechs which justifies the cost, the reality is that the IS mechs are just a much better value due to how they can be configured.

Also from another perspective, it comes down to accessibility. I, as my faction affiliation indicates, am a hard core clanner and probably will own at least one variant of each Clan chassis PGI makes available in the game. Some will be bought with C-bills but alot will be pre-purchases and the simple fact remains, you can buy 4 pre-purchase IS mechs for less than the cost of 3 pre-purchase clan mechs so Clan players are basically required to pay a premium to be Clan players if that want to take advantage of the benefits of a pre-purchase pack. Also those benefits are primarily early access and the 30% bonus, both of which require a monetary investment to acquire. The C-bill value of the mechs in NOT what most are buying, because lets face it, C-bills can be earned in the game and I will eventually get access to each and every one of these mechs via C-bills if I am ok waiting months and month and/or don't mind never having access to the prime variants. Now I am not saying that grind reduction doesn't factor into a buying decision, because it does but it is only a minor concern compared to early access and the 30% bonuses.

So the question to PGI becomes, "Why do those players who choose to affiliate themselves with the Clans, have to pay a premium in order to have early access to new mechs?" This is the real issue.

The answer is unfortunately "because they can" and obviously we are fine with it because us Clanners could choose not to purchase. On the other hand, it is kind of a strong arm tactic by PGI because like everyone knows, if we don't want to pay the premium, we just get left out.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 24 October 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Creovex]

simple....
CLAN: 4 mechs, each has 3 variants with 6 swappable sections(which dictates hardpoints mind you) on each... (ie. all my kitfoxes have ECM)

IS: 4 mechs, each has 3 variants with zero swappable sections...

QA costs alone for Clan mechs are 3x as much.... so in theory...the clan players are the real ones getting the better pricing


Oh... did anyone mention the XL engines yet and CASE built in?

Edited by Creovex, 24 October 2014 - 02:53 PM.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 24 October 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Which would be all fine and dandy except:

We have NO CHOICE in the manner.

Perhaps Clan mechs should be given the option to manipulate their upgrades. Hell, they could make it so that Clan mechs have to be upgraded once bought before they can be used in games. I'm all cool with that, for I could at least put my 300,000,000 CBills to some form of use.

Inner Sphere mechs have the luxury of NOT having to pay REAL MONEY for upgrades that are available for fake money.

If we're really going to use this argument as to why players that want to play Clan for CW must spend more IRL money, then IS mechs should be given all the upgrades from the start. Then they can cost the same IRL money as Clan packages, with the option of removing the upgrades once they own the mech.

I knew the choice I was making when I hopped into it.

I agree that the price of the packs is pretty lopsided, but outside of the IS pack mechs coming fully upgraded (and breaking with TT > MWO which PGI seems loathe to do) I'm not sure how else it could be addressed (I think they should come upgraded, personally).

Clan players shouldn't have to pay more real money, and they technically they don't have to.

I wanted my clan mechs early, I could have waited and saved and used fake money to buy all of them.

These packs are for convenience.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Maybe I am just stating the obvious, but everyone discussing this is aware the Overlord Package was $80 unless you added the Sabre Package right?

Which begs the question, why would this package not be $80?

[Calamus]

EgoSlayer, on 24 October 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

It means nothing to *you*, it means everything to the people setting the prices. See "Monster Cable" above. They can charge more because they are Clan, not because they are better. We knew before the purchase they were not going to be straight out better - different but balanced against the IS tech we had. It doesn't matter if they are better in TT and cost 1, 5, or 10 times as much. In MWO they cost about 240% more because they are *Clan*. That's it. No fallacy involved.


And anyone who thought they were going to be playing for the IS in CW using clan mechs was fooling themselves, that has nothing to do with anything.

Well, sure, if you take reason completely out of the equation, then why am I trying to reason?

"It is because it is" has never been a rational argument. You're committing an informal fallacy of reasoning.

Edited: Removed a rude part of my comment.

Edited by Calamus, 24 October 2014 - 03:20 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Calamus, on 24 October 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Well, sure, if you take reason completely out of the equation, then why am I trying to reason?

"It is because it is" has never been a rational argument. You're committing an informal fallacy of reasoning.

Edited: Removed a rude part of my comment.

Again, no I am not committing any fallacy. They are priced higher because the market will support the higher price. Supply and demand is not a fallacy. If people didn't buy them, their price would come down. But people are buying them in droves, indicating, at a minimum, that the price is "acceptable" to these people. Priced at what the market will bear *IS* a rational argument.
If you don't agree with the price, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't make everything supporting the price a fallacy.

[Calamus]

EgoSlayer, on 24 October 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

Again, no I am not committing any fallacy. They are priced higher because the market will support the higher price. Supply and demand is not a fallacy. If people didn't buy them, their price would come down. But people are buying them in droves, indicating, at a minimum, that the price is "acceptable" to these people. Priced at what the market will bear *IS* a rational argument.
If you don't agree with the price, that's your prerogative, but it doesn't make everything supporting the price a fallacy.

Sure, when it's video games it's just a free market, right? When it's insurance rates on your mortgage I bet you're not such a free market thinker. I doubt you think so free market about fuel prices.

I bet you'd scream bloody murder if people who play video games were forced to pay a higher price for internet connections, simply because your ISP knows that gamers require the internet, and would pay the price. All the while, your neighbour with the porn fetish gets to pay 33% less than you do for internet.

Free market arguments are great when it fits your particular situation. No one really wants a free market philosophy when it's applied everywhere else. So, no, simply pricing at the highest price because you think the market will bear it is not rational. It is predatory.

Consider this:

Quote

Consumers purchase items based on value, quality or availability – often on all three. The methods of appointing a value to an object with no previous value, like the Tahitian black pearl, is susceptible to irrational pricing. A value can be as easily (arbitrarily) assigned as by having a fancy ad with “equally” precious items and a high price tag in a window of a store on Fifth Avenue. When consumers buy a product at a certain price, they become "anchored" to that price, i.e. they associate the initial price with the same product over a period of time. An anchor price of a certain object, say a plasma television, will affect the way they perceive the value of all plasma televisions hence forth. Other prices will seem low or high in relation to the original anchor. In other words, decisions about future LCD television purchases become coherent after an initial price has been established in the consumer's mind. A person's self value for services rendered can also be affected by anchor prices; one can irrationally price his/her abilities or services based on an anchor price proposed. Demand, the determinant of market prices, can be easily manipulated. Furthermore, supply and demand are dependent on each other (manufacturer's suggested retail prices affect consumers' willingness to pay).

I didn't create that. I just thought it was some good food for thought.

Edited by Calamus, 24 October 2014 - 03:59 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Calamus, on 24 October 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Sure, when it's video games it's just a free market, right? When it's insurance rates on your mortgage I bet you're not such a free market thinker. I doubt you think so free market about fuel prices.

I bet you'd scream bloody murder if people who play video games were forced to pay a higher price for internet connections, simply because your ISP knows that gamers require the internet, and would pay the price. All the while, your neighbour with the porn fetish gets to pay 33% less than you do for internet.

Free market arguments are great when it fits your particular situation. No one really wants a free market philosophy when it's applied everywhere else. So, no, simply pricing at the highest price because you think the market will bear it is not rational. It is predatory.

It may very well be predatory when you have a monopoly on a product. That's an entirely different debate.

You think the prices are out of line because of no improved game play value. Fine, that's your opinion.
I don't think the prices are out of line because of player's perceived value of the Clans. That's my opinion.

If the prices were out of line in the minds of most players on the first Clan pack PGI wouldn't have sold as many, and continue to sell them. The Wave 2 pack would have had a different, lower, price. But PGI is selling tons of them, I can't tell you how many Mad Dogs I have seen.
Even with a monopoly they have to maintain a price point that is profitable, because people have the choice not to buy. If the majority of potential buyers believe mech packs are over priced they wouldn't sell and PGI wouldn't be profitable. Simple - even with a monopoly. It's not priced at the highest price possible. They didn't price every Clan mech at $500 each, and only individually at $500 each. Yet some people still paid that, even when it was a single mech and didn't include the Masakari pack.


EDIT: For clarity.
.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 25 October 2014 - 08:13 AM.

[terrycloth]

It isn't just clan vs IS -- IS mechs with pre-upgraded variants cost more MC. This is how they've always done it for everything except Hero mechs -- and there were lots of complaints that they hadn't done it for hero mechs.

[Calamus]

EgoSlayer, on 24 October 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

It may very well be predatory when you have a monopoly on a product. That's an entirely different debate.

You think the prices are out of line because of no improved game play value. Fine, that's your opinion.
I don't think the prices are out of line because of player's perceived value of the Clans. That's my opinion.

If the prices were out of line in the minds of most players on the first Clan pack PGI wouldn't have sold as many, and continue to sell them. The Wave 2 pack would have had a different, lower, price. But PGI is selling tons of them, I can't tell you how many Mad Dogs I have seen.
Even with a monopoly they have to maintain a price point that is profitable, because people have the choice not to buy. If the majority of potential buyers believed they were over priced they wouldn't sell and PGI wouldn't be profitable. Simple - even with a monopoly. It's not priced at the highest price possible. They didn't price every Clan mech at $500 each, and only individually at $500 each. Yet some people still paid that, even when it was a single mech and didn't include the Masakari pack.
.

Nothing you just said made a case for their pricing being rational. Statistically there are bound to be irrational buyers willing to buy irrationally priced items. PT Barnum is famously credited with proving that.

Secondly, your black and white argument is also an informal fallacy. There is no evidence whatsoever that PGI would be unprofitable if Clan mech packs were priced the same as the IS packs. In fact, considering that IS mech packs are priced as they are says that it is logical to conclude that PGI WOULD still be profitable if all packs were priced the same. Unless they used IS packs as a loss leader - which is completely irrational from their point of view - there is no other rational explanation. IF you were correct that Clan packs must be priced as they are for PGI to be profitable, and there is no evidence that you are, then it would stand to reason that IS packs would have been priced the same. Otherwise, turning your argument back at you, they would be unprofitable. I don't actually believe that, I'm just using an absurd example that, hopefully, will show you how your argument doesn't hold any water.

Oh, and if you read some material on the history of predatory marketing, the most successful predatory marketers have done so without creating a monopoly. A monopoly is not a requirement of being predatory.

Edited by Calamus, 24 October 2014 - 04:13 PM.

[Cimarb]

Calamus, on 24 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

I know you and I have gone over this already, but this is more for the benefit of everyone else who isn't in our clan.

You've proven that you're willing to pay an inflated price because your decision, by your admission, is based on a feeling. It does not mean that the prices are not artificially inflated. And it does not mean that its fair. It also does not mean that the Clan players will keep paying it in the future, which would be detrimental to the game. I already know many, many people who have not bought all of Tier 1, OR Tier 2 for this very reason. I personally would have bought all of Wave 2 if it was priced like The Resistance Pack. I didn't because the price is inflated.

I had to go to a meeting, so my post got abbreviated unexpectedly. That likely made my point confusing, so I apologize.

I am on your side in this, lol.

When it comes to MC costs and cbill costs, the chassis and equipment included in the mech makes all the difference. You pay more for a Clan mech because you get more. XL engines, DHS, etc. etc. etc.

When it comes to Hero and Champion mechs, that is thrown out the window because it is a straight tonnage-to-MC conversion. 75 MC per ton. Loadout does not matter, at all.

When it comes to Packages, it is also thrown out the window because, like Heroes and Champions, the equipment in them does not get considered. The only thing that matters is the price PGI sets for it, which in this case is $20 for IS and $30 for Clan.

Unfortunately, in a supply/demand world, we are at PGIs mercy on all of them. That does not mean the prices are right, and I do agree with you that the package prices should be equal because the technology has been equaled. To offset the cost decrease of the Clan packs, they can just increase the cost of the IS packs, making them BOTH $25/tier.

Now, the current packs are not going to be changed - it is far too late for that to happen, since the IS pack was created JUST to allow IS pilots to get the King Crab without having to purchase Clan mechs.

Future packs, though, should be equal in cost/tier.

[orcrist86]

This whole thread is like watching people talk to walls. There are only two possibilities:

Pricing is acceptable, so you buy them packs
Pricing is unacceptable, so you do not buy the packs

Standing around wringing your hands attempting to turn unacceptable into acceptable is unproductive, and gives me mental cancer. Don't give me cancer. I don't want it.

Standing around developing conspiracy theories about the pricing and mumbling about monopolies is also worth little time and effort. PGI provides what it provides, it sets the pricing according to its analysis of what the market will bear. If you do not like that pricing please see the first part of my post; same thing if you do like it. reading about peoples half baked economic theories gives my hemorrhoids. Don't give me hemorrhoids. I don't want them.

TL;DR
Buy or don't buy, stop debating; your giving me hemorrhoids and cancer. Please don't.



































TL;DR part 2

I actually really don't care; go about your business.

[Mawai]

Anarcho, on 23 October 2014 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, this isnt a rant or cry, just want to know why the IS pack is 80 bucks when the clan wave 2 with 4 mechs, colours and premium time cost more...

Why??

The justification I have heard is that the cbill value of the package is higher which guides the pack price to some extent. The Phoenix pack has the same pricing structure as the IS reinforcement pack.

Clans all have their own pricing structure ... basically $30 per 3 mechs instead of $20 when bought in bulk.