57 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

guess what, good heat management and battle pacing allowed me to regularly put out over 200 damage in about a minutes worth of firing before i got nuked by combined fire.

[Xarian]

Badger, the Clans have several limitations that IS mechs do not have. Clans may look overpowered if you compare some individual pieces of equipment, overall they are quite balanced.

First, let's look at the areas where Inner Sphere technology is flat-out superior to Clan technology:

• Inner Sphere Autocannons have the same movement speed and ammo efficiency as Clan Ultra Autocannons, but they shoot one large projectile - this means that Clan Autocannons often spread their shots all over multiple armor locations (C-AC/5 and C-AC/10), or they miss about half their shots (C-AC/20).
  
• Inner Sphere PPCs are not present in Clan at all. They are good for mid-range combat, and are very heat efficient.

Next, let's look at the areas where Inner Sphere technology is equal to Clan techology:

• Innere Sphere LRMs cluster much more efficiently but weigh more. It's much easier to get kills and do damage with Inner Sphere LRMs.
  
• Inner Sphere lasers are more heat efficient but have shorter range. Inner Sphere mechs are much better at close range than Clan mechs.

Next, let's look at the areas where Inner Sphere technology is absolutely worse than Clan technology:

• Clan SRMs and Streak SRMs do pretty much the same damage, but Clan versions weigh less (about 50% less).
  
• Gauss Rifle is lighter on Clan version but is otherwise the same (20% less).
  
• Clan ERPPC weighs less than the Inner Sphere ERPPC, and does an extra 5 points of splash damage.

Take all of this into consideration, and it looks like the Clans have an edge in ranged combat and the Inner Sphere has a pretty big advantage in close-range combat (medium lasers and AC/20 especially). This is before we look at the other balancing factors:

• Clan mechs have locked engines. This means you cannot make a Clan light mech run fast.
  
• Most Clan mechs have several locked Heat Sinks. The Mad Dog has zero; the Warhawk has ten. This hurts customizability a lot on these mechs - not only does it limit your weapon choices, but it also means that you cannot put ammo in the heat, legs, or center torso or side torso for many of these mechs.
  
• Locked engines + locked Heat Sinks = locked engine heat sinks. The Stormcrow, especially, loses extra critical slots because several heat sinks are not placed in the engine.
  
• Clan mechs have locked Jump Jets. This means that mechs like the Summoner and Nova must take them - and most players would not want to take 5 Jump Jets. This is often considered wasted tonnage and space.
  
• Clan mechs have locked upgrades. This makes mechs with Ferro Fibrous armor, and without Endosteel, lose a lot of tonnage. This really hurts the Nova (no FF/Endo), Summoner (has FF, no Endo), and Warhawk (has FF, no Endo).

What this all boils down to is that Clan mechs are more customizable than Inner Sphere mechs in certain ways - hardpoints - they are also less customizable in other ways that are also very important. This is what balance means.


We are also moving into the time when many Clan mechs are worse than Inner Sphere mechs - because people like you keep coming here complaining about them without actually piloting them or playing against them. Yes, the Summoner is better than a Hunchback - because right now, the Hunchback is one of the worst mechs in the game. The Summoner is much worse than a good Inner Sphere mech, however; and if you don't think that it is, then that's because you're playing against good Summoner pilots and bad Inner Sphere pilots.

Edited by Xarian, 25 October 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[Xarian]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

novafury, this is true in a brawl the direct damage of the centurion does overpower the nova but since they move the same speed and the nova jumps you can keep distance where the ac20 becomes less of an issue and the missiles dont matter while you still beast out a reasonable amount of damage, nova to me isnt a facebrawler, its a mid range harrasser.

The Centurion is smaller than the Nova by almost half, and runs about 40% faster. If a Centurion starts attacking a Nova in close range, the only thing that can save it is to jump up a building; and you will get your legs shot off doing this because Jump Jets are slow.

The Centurion plays like a 50 ton mech, and can take damage like a 60 ton mech. The Nova plays like a slow 45 ton mech, and can take damage like a 40 ton mech. It's really no contest. The only advantage that the Nova has is its range.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Xarian, on 25 October 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

The Centurion is smaller than the Nova by almost half, and runs about 40% faster. If a Centurion starts attacking a Nova in close range, the only thing that can save it is to jump up a building; and you will get your legs shot off doing this because Jump Jets are slow.

The Centurion plays like a 50 ton mech, and can take damage like a 60 ton mech. The Nova plays like a slow 45 ton mech, and can take damage like a 40 ton mech. It's really no contest. The only advantage that the Nova has is its range.

My nova preforms well enough when I am piloting it.

[Xarian]

Brody319, on 25 October 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

bad mechs:
Adder, Summoner, and Nova

These mechs either are out classed, or just underpowered. Nova runs hot, Adder can't use ecm, and the summoner mounts less weapons than a IS heavy.

Average mechs:
Kitfox and Maddog

Both these mechs are okay, the lack of speed brings the kitfox down but it can mount a lot of weapons so that helps plus ECM. Maddog is kinda out classed in every field except missile boat, and its lack of armor means its armor goes quick.

Good:
Direwolf, Warhawk, Stormcrow.

Direwolf and warhawk are about the same, they are big tanks and take a lot of damage, but they have heat problems and are super easy to flank. Their slow walks means they often get left behind. Stormcrow is the best medium, runs fast, and hits hard, just a good mech.

Near perfect:
Timberwolf

Lots of hard hitting weapons, lots of armor, and fast. Has little or no exploitable weaknesses.


Clans are better because they advanced. they got better tech. Thats just how it is. We can't do anything about it but wait for IS to catch up. Wait for the quirks to show up before you decide if clans are OP.

I would classify these as:
Bad - Adder, Nova
Average - Summoner, Mad Dog, Warhawk, Kitfox
Good - Dire Wolf, Timber Wolf, Stormcrow

Adder is listed as bad because it is big for its tonnage, slow, has a locked flamer, and only has 1-2 viable builds (that aren't very good).
Nova is listed as bad because it is huge for its tonnage, slow, and has only one viable build (that isn't very good).
Summoner, Mad Dog, Warhawk, and Kit Fox all have a few viable builds and can be effective, but they aren't the first choice in their slots; a lot of this is because they aren't at their class tonnage maximum (Summoner, Mad Dog, Warhawk). Kit Fox is just too slow to be a 'great' mech, but it's still very playable.
Timber Wolf, Stormcrow, and Dire Wolf are the best mechs of the Clans - they have the maximum tonnage for their weight Classes and can take the optimal number of jump jets easily (zero or two). Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are also very fast for their weight.

I wouldn't say that the Timber Wolf is way above the Dire Wolf or Stormcrow. It's a lot less scary once you learn to start aiming for its legs or do hit-and-run attacks instead of running head-first into it - it's a 75 ton mech, and has a lot of armor, so stop doing that! Consider that the Stormcrow carries the same weaponry, runs faster, has more agility, and can look directly behind itself. The Dire Wolf is a beast when used effectively, but a waste of 100 tons if your team is running fast (it just gets left behind or ruins the whole team strategy) and gets chewed up by anything that isn't directly in front of it.

[NovaFury]

Badgerthej, on 25 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

nova to me isnt a facebrawler, its a mid range harrasser.

You're correct. You must do this. You really don't have a choice.

The similar speed works both ways, if the opponent gets the jump on you up close, thanks to terrain? You don't get really get the chance to escape. Fair, yes. Overpowered? Can't say it is. Stormcrow is better than both hands down, though, no arguments there.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Xarian]

BLOOD WOLF, on 25 October 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

My nova preforms well enough when I am piloting it.

Ok, good for you? My Nova does pretty well too, but if you get ambushed by a Centurion 1-on-1 at close range, you are dead.

And keep in mind that you can make just about every Nova build better by putting it in a Stormcrow.

Edited by Xarian, 25 October 2014 - 12:12 PM.

[The Boz]

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
You've GOT to be kidding me!
"Oh, sure, the Clan LRMs are smaller and lighter and can deal low damage at point blank range, but they're totally the same as IS launchers."

Hahahaha! Dude, you're not serious, right?

"Yeah, the Nova is by far the weakest Clan mech, so if we compare it to a 'random' IS mech, it's easy to prove that Clan mechs are weak."

Thanks. I needed the laugh.

[Scratx]

Was going to post but McGral18 beat me to what I was going to say for the most part. Just going to add what he didn't say... the Quirk pass will do a lot for the IS mechs and we can't quite quantify how that will change overall balance just yet. Some of the buffs coming even look like they could be gamechangers for many mechs.

Wait for november 4th patch, and see what happens.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Xarian, on 25 October 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

Ok, good for you? My Nova does pretty well too, but if you get ambushed by a Centurion 1-on-1 at close range, you are dead.

And keep in mind that you can make just about every Nova build better by putting it in a Stormcrow.

You cant say the nova is a bad mech because the stormcrow can do better. Yes the stormcrow is a better mech but that doesn't make the nova a bad mech. Its the pilot not the mech.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 25 October 2014 - 12:16 PM.

[NovaFury]

The Boz, on 25 October 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Thanks. I needed the laugh.

Jade falcon icon aside, I could care less what's the strongest mech currently, but this is a PVP game, so I'll be piloting it. It's been this way since open beta with Jenner-Fs, Streakitties and Cat-K2s, ECM DDCs and Stalkers with 8 PPCs, Poptarting Dragonslayers/Metahawks and now Stormcrows and Timberwolves.

Soon, it will be certain IS mechs that roll well in the quirk lottery, but that's okay, it keeps the game fresh when the meta shifts. Mark my words, things are better balanced now than they were in ages past.

I mean I no longer have an 8.0 KDR in a JR7-F as a decidedly average pilot.

Edited by NovaFury, 25 October 2014 - 12:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 25 October 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Maybe if PGI wouldn't listen to the whingers on this forum and BUFF the bad IS chassis to be on par with the good IS chassis, then maybe PGI wouldn't have needed to try and roll back all the nerfs to the good IS chassis.

But no, don't listen to us players that have been asking for something like this quirk system for nearly 2 years now.

No, just keep whining and get every mech in the game nerfed down to be on par with the shittiest of **** chassis that no one plays because it's a hot piece of ****. No, nerf EVERYTHING to be bad instead of buffing the bads to be goods.

#thiscommunityneverlearns

What? They ARE buffing all the weak IS chassis... Virtually ALL the chassis, actually. Aren't you paying attention?

That's the whole thread, really. It's a pointless argument until the next patch when those quirks go in.

[Koniving]

LauLiao, on 25 October 2014 - 11:03 AM, said:

I was playing Alien: Isolation the other day, and it was completely rediculous! Those Aliens were totally OP compared to humans!

1 - You move faster than humans
2 - You have those wicked tails and claws that can tear stuff up
3 - ACID BLOOD! How are we supposed to compete with that?
4 - You have two sets of jaws. TWO!

I demand Xenomorphs be replaced by pink, squishy human beings, or failing that, fluffy bunnies.

I know I'm gonna get criticized for this, but Aliens are OP and always have been.

God damn it! The bunny is OP too!
Maybe snails... replace xenomorph fluffy bunnies with snails.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 25 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

What? They ARE buffing all the weak IS chassis... Virtually ALL the chassis, actually. Aren't you paying attention?

That's the whole thread, really. It's a pointless argument until the next patch when those quirks go in.

Well, it will help to a point, but some mechs will still be terribad.

Spider 5V would need those 50% weapon bonuses on those two weapon slots. Additional hardpoint inflation would also help a couple.

Edited by Mcgral18, 25 October 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Wintersdark]

BLOOD WOLF, on 25 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:

You cant say the nova is a bad mech because the stormcrow can do better. Yes the stormcrow is a better mech but that doesn't make the nova a bad mech. Its the pilot not the mech.

Pilot is worth much more than mech, no argument there. Skill > Chassis by at least an order of magnitude.

Still, chassis matters. Given two pilots of equal skill, chassis becomes the deciding factor. The Nova has several factors that make it a bad mech - you can still do well in it, because skill is so critical - but the Nova suffers from:

No Endosteel or FerroFibrous armor - the Stormcrow has FerroFibrous at least, gaining a substantial increase in available tonnage at no disadvantage as critical slots are not a limiting factor for it.
Fixed jump jets: If you want 5 JJ's, that's that, but 5 is generally unnecessary and not a worthwhile investment. As such, you've got more tonnage thrown away on equipment that's not really useful.
Crappy hitboxes and geometry: Width is a huge negative for any mech, and the Nova is wiiiiiide with it's arms. That makes it very easy to hit. Further, it's weaponry is heavily focussed in it's arms, which are huge and easily torn off.
Weapon positions: The Nova's primary firepower is in it's low-slung, wide arms, which means it's very easy to be in a position where you'll be unable to fire at someone who's firing at you. Low-slung weapons are bad.

The Nova isn't just worse than the Stormcrow, it's vastly worse. It's not even in the same ballpark. Nova vs. Stormcrow is like Awesome vs. Victor.

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Well, it will help to a point, but some mechs will still be terribad.

Spider 5V would need those 50% weapon bonuses on those two weapon slots. Additional hardpoint inflation would also help a couple.

Yeah, there are instances where no amount of quirkbuffing is going to make a difference, but those quirks are looking to be pretty damn major, so it should vastly improve IS competitiveness all around.

[Badgerthej]

xarian, I roll hunchies as one of my more regular mediums and i ee them meet out a heavy toll, they always had the beatbox as a massive dissadvantage, this is made even worse when you can bullseye it from an even greater distance with clan erlarges or hamer it with a 15damage ppc.

but to take into acount your side of the argument, first of all I have played in the nova, I do well in the nova I know how the usual fight goes when I fight against clan mechs, my cent/hunch/dragon/atlas...etc, is vastly undepowered compared to the firepower I usually meet.

clan mechs have locked points, that is true, but to actually fit some if not most of the IS mechs you also NEED to have endo/ferro to roll any speed or weaponry and most have to roll a dangerous unstable xl to boot, sure you dont get to go faster/slower but you dont detonate when your side torso goes poof. your equipment weighs less and has less slots, this is somewhat a compensation for your fixed slots, you lose very little tonnage or fitting space due to this on most of your mechs.

maddog, this is one of the only clan mechs i would consider buying as its a beast, it fulfils all the battlefield roles of long range support and fast paced heavy flanker, everything the dragon should be and fails miserably at doing and the quickdraw can do reasonably. you can mitigate its lack of heatsinks by reducing the lrm's to 15's, not a terrible drop and the free tonnage can stock heats to cope with its more demanding parts.

when engaging a ballistic heavy clan mech i tend to get ripped up really badly for them "missing" with half of the shots, alot of the benefit of the weapons is they deny return fire by blinding and shaking you to pieces.

clan missiles....the endless stream of blue death from the skies, sure IS missiles cluster better, we shot a blob of rockets at you so of course they cluster better, but the constant dammage stream from clan lrm's makes them much more dangerous as you can get straffed as you try to avoid allowing them to cut your armour off as you retreat, they also have a better firing arc than the innershpere missiles with a more direct curve that lets you shoot in tunnels and caves.

i'll point out that at close range clan mechs are infact better at laser battles since they dont lose as much damage by being able to keep the beams on their targets better, if IS mechs were superior in this fashion I wouldnt see crushing defeats of IS charges that hit at close range.
unfortunately this is simply a case of more damage wins,

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Wintersdark, on 25 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

What? They ARE buffing all the weak IS chassis... Virtually ALL the chassis, actually. Aren't you paying attention?

That's the whole thread, really. It's a pointless argument until the next patch when those quirks go in.

You clearly didn't read the post.

Some of us have been asking for this new system or something like it FOR YEARS.

But instead of listening to the few of us that wanted to buff the bad chassis, PGI listened to the loudmouths and nerfed the good ones. So when clans hit, we had a lot of bad IS chassis and a few heavily nerfed good ones. Or do you not remember all the negative quirks that certain good chassis got?

L2readcomprehensively

[Tezcatli]

Xarian, on 25 October 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

First, let's look at the areas where Inner Sphere technology is flat-out superior to Clan technology:
Next, let's look at the areas where Inner Sphere technology is equal to Clan techology:

• Innere Sphere LRMs cluster much more efficiently but weigh more. It's much easier to get kills and do damage with Inner Sphere LRMs.

Weigh more? They are double the weight. And you can fire Clan LRMs close up for reduced damage. Despite AMS being soooo great against Clan LRMs. A lot of people don't bother because the ammo dries up in no time. For which the clans get double the ammo tonnage. And if you're boating, you probably have way more LRMs to make up for it anyway.

It's not a huge imbalance. Because LRMs don't deal much damage by themselves. But the weight makes them more plentiful on Clan boats. And easier to add to a build. Even if it's just LRM5s to annoy your opponent into submission.

[Mystere]

And the decades-long anti-Clan Crusade marches on.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 25 October 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

DoomCrow and TimberGod being the ones that are actually iffy, because those are good mechs; they don't have the downsides many of the other Clam mechs have.

Their primary downside is that their best builds run exceptionally hot, play smart and you can force a shut down.