19 replies to this topic

[Salvag3]

So I'm trying hard to understand something, I feel like the cost of clan mechs is really high. They keep saying that the objective is to have them balanced vs the IS mechs. But if balance is the objective then why do they cost so much more C-Bills and Mc to buy. I can understand them costing a little to fair a mount more but twice the price or more on avg.

But taking a closer look, I do understand that your looking at more than the up front cost when you get a mech. I clearly see that most IS mechs need more money sunk into them to be Battle ready for most pilots and that the mech lab changes cost more for the IS most of the time than the clans. But that only goes to a point. How many IS mechs of the same weight class do you need before you can just move power plants, weapons, equipment and armor around before all you do when you buy a mech is sell it's reactor and pretty much cover the DHS, ED, FF upgrades ( if the mech is going to even have all 3 ) while clan pilots are forced to buy and keep the same power plants over and over again.

That and the fact that with the exception of the DW, Storm C, Timber and Vulture ( as LRM support ) the clan mechs don't really seem to hold their own vs comparable IS mechs.

With what seems like Nerf after Nerf after nerf to the clans I just don't really see what I'm getting for all the C-bills I'm grinding out. I'm at the point now where I own 3 Kitfox, 3 Timbers ( al cart ) 3 crows, and 3 DWs ( one with MC 2 with C-Bill ) and I'm like there's no way I'm getting any other clan mechs until the Vulture when it comes out and I'm only doing that due the S pods not allowing me to carry 4 LRM racks and ammo to last most of a battle.

I'm not upset that they keep dialing back the power of clan mechs be vise I understand they are trying to make the game more balanced. No I don't agree with some of it, even more so that nerds are coming in right before a global buff for the IS. But I'll roll with the punches because I have played TT since I was a child and all the MS games and I'm just happy to have one to play again and the clans have always been my favored mechs to use. But it's gotten to the point where I can't really invest and more real money ( don't see the value of fun/real life work needed to earn ) or C-bills ( C-Bills = free time I have to game ) in owning any more clan stuff.

What do some of you guys think, and please can we keep the decision constructive. I'm not posting this to hear whining about how not powerful your Madcats are anymore or how OP you think all clan mechs are. The game is what it is as far as balance and they are going to keep making changes as they see fit to get the balance they want. Constructive comments about clan mechs effectiveness vs their cost to own is what I would like to focus on please.

[Budor]

I think that crows, timbers and dires are still better than anything the is has in that department. We will see how the quirks play out but they certainly wont be useless.

Regarding the costs i think you get more for the cbills when buying a clan mech atm., the issue is that obtaining the cbills to aquire multiple mechs takes too long.

[Brody319]

I think its fine.
IS mechs most of the time come with a 5-6 million extra c-bill cost in addition to their current price because of endo, double heat sinks, engine upgrades, and weapons. So really if you look at the full cost of a IS mech they tend to be pretty even with their clan counterparts.

[Mcgral18]

Clam mechs are sold for the cost of their components; here's a breakdown in a nice spreadsheet, created by Flying_Fox 333
http://mwomercs.com/...flying-fox-333/

https://docs.google....RoSQ/edit#gid=0


Should they be cheaper? They did double the price of TT weapons, while considerably reducing the price of XL engines (since MWO has them at a flat price, while TT goes up by mech tonnage)

[Salvag3]

Yeah I agree with that assessment of IS upgrade cost starting out, but it Dosent take to many mechs before you reach a critical mass of reactors and are no longer paying for them. Only leaving DHS, ES, maybe FF, and then that cost is mostly midagated by selling the power plant the mech comes with.

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 27 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

I think its fine.
IS mechs most of the time come with a 5-6 million extra c-bill cost in addition to their current price because of endo, double heat sinks, engine upgrades, and weapons. So really if you look at the full cost of a IS mech they tend to be pretty even with their clan counterparts.

This is very true, I just looked at turning a CTF-3D into a Summoner Prime, works out the CTF-3D costs about 4 million more, but would arguably be the better mech...

I've said in another thread, I don't mind the extra cost being on the 7 slot endo, 7 slot FF, 10 slot Xl engines (2 in each ST, 6 in CT) and on the weight and slot advantage we get on things like CAP (Clan Active Probe), DHS and ECM.

My question on the costing comes in at the weapons, yes most of our kit weighs less and takes less slots, but we pay for the damage advantage in a few ways, heat, cost and time on target to deliver that damage, and frankly, I'm not sure if getting a little more damage out of my lasers is worth the extra heat they take.

As it stands our range advantage, is limited to just a few maps where we can actually use it, due to map design, or the weapons are just flat out inferior to their IS counter part, a prime example of that is the cUAC's IS AC's are just better, even if they are a little heavier and take an extra crit or two. Their LRM's are better at getting around AMS than ours, yet ours do some damage below 180m so, balance there I guess?

[Brody319]

Salvag3, on 27 October 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yeah I agree with that assessment of IS upgrade cost starting out, but it Dosent take to many mechs before you reach a critical mass of reactors and are no longer paying for them. Only leaving DHS, ES, maybe FF, and then that cost is mostly midagated by selling the power plant the mech comes with.

Yes eventually there is a point where you have engines to spare, but at that point, you probably have c-bills to burn.

[Salvag3]

@ Brody

With a lot of IS mechs I think it happens quite fast, the Jenner for example was my first mech, I got a xl300 for it and that power plant ran all the other jenners I owned.

[Brody319]

Salvag3, on 27 October 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

@ Brody

With a lot of IS mechs I think it happens quite fast, the Jenner for example was my first mech, I got a xl300 for it and that power plant ran all the other jenners I owned.

Well yea if you use one engine for a bunch of different mechs it saves you a lot of money. But with clans you cannot share 1 engine, you are stuck with the one you got, so I think its a fair trade off. You can spend more time and effort swapping equipment around to save money, or you can go clan, and just have the complete package and only have to worry about weapons.

You are buying 3 complete clan mechs, not 3 half complete IS mechs and then sharing equipment.

[Metus regem]

Brody319, on 27 October 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Well yea if you use one engine for a bunch of different mechs it saves you a lot of money. But with clans you cannot share 1 engine, you are stuck with the one you got, so I think its a fair trade off. You can spend more time and effort swapping equipment around to save money, or you can go clan, and just have the complete package and only have to worry about weapons.

You are buying 3 complete clan mechs, not 3 half complete IS mechs and then sharing equipment.

Again, very true, at the same time though, if you buy one set of extra omni-pods for a mech, you can then go about swapping omni-pods around on each of those chassis to save money and make each one work in the same manor of the others with a few exceptions.

I know that with my Adder's I run them all as Cougars, just by swapping around some kit, I ran my Timber Wolves as D package, now I run them as Pryde's since I have to have JJ's now.

That being said, the cost savings doesn't compare to that of being able to swap engines around, as the example of the 300xl works in several mechs, and can save you several millions of C-bills.

[Salvag3]

Well since, I can't pilot more than one mech at any given time, swapping equipment seems like the way to go, I mean spend 6 million on the same Module I already own or just move the one I have around an save my self hours of farming c-bills seems like a easy question for me since I have limited play time. I'm sure their are others that buy the same gear over and over again. But I think most pilots swap a fair amount of equipment around.

[Metus regem]

Salvag3, on 27 October 2014 - 12:53 PM, said:

Well since, I can't pilot more than one mech at any given time, swapping equipment seems like the way to go, I mean spend 6 million on the same Module I already own or just move the one I have around an save my self hours of farming c-bills seems like a easy question for me since I have limited play time. I'm sure their are others that buy the same gear over and over again. But I think most pilots swap a fair amount of equipment around.

I do, only have one extra set of pods for each of my Omni's, just so that I can move pods and gear around on the chassis.

[VanillaG]

Salvag3, on 27 October 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

@ Brody

With a lot of IS mechs I think it happens quite fast, the Jenner for example was my first mech, I got a xl300 for it and that power plant ran all the other jenners I owned.

At some point you are going to need to buy additional engines for your IS mechs if you want to participate in CW. You will need at least 4 mechs weighing a combined 140-240 tons. Being able to swap around expensive engines has made the IS mechs seem cheaper but when you fully kit them out there are about the same cost as the Clan mechs.

[Brody319]

Also if you think about it. You buy an XL 300 engine. Any IS mech you buy can now use that engine. I buy a Clan mech I can't take a direwolf engine and slap it in my kitfox to make it run insanely fast, I'm stuck with that engine for good. So you get more viability with your IS mechs every piece of equipment you buy, is just something you don't have to buy later to put on a new mech.

I think the costs are fine, but if they ran more sales I wouldn't complain. I managed to get 3 stormcrows in half the time. Since the warhawk is the next release, maybe they could have an assault sale. Atlases, Whales, Stalkers, and the Warhawk 50% off or run an event like the last one.

[Salvag3]

@ VinillaG

Yes this is true you will need more power plants for CW, but still your going to see a lot of over lap. Unless someone takes 4 60 ton mechs that all use the same power plant you will most likely see different power plants being used. What I'm talking about is also for down he road when their are more clan mechs to choose from. Almost certainly we will always have far more IS mechs than clan mechs and with each IS mech the total cost needed to get another IS mech goes down while the cost of clan mechs stays the same. With each mech you buy the value of your c-bills goes down for Clans and UP for IS. It dosent take very long to hit that critical mass of equipment with the IS maybe 8 power plants and you have almost all your bases covered. It's kinda hard to make a real solid point because I don't have real numbers from a study of any kind to back up my ideas. But looking at things from my time in game it really seems this way to me. And again I value your guys ideas and I by no means think I'm right and your wrong like I said before I just wanted to see what people think and talk about it a bit. Before I posted in the suggested features.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Metus regem, on 27 October 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

My question on the costing comes in at the weapons, yes most of our kit weighs less and takes less slots, but we pay for the damage advantage in a few ways, heat, cost and time on target to deliver that damage, and frankly, I'm not sure if getting a little more damage out of my lasers is worth the extra heat they take.

No, it isn't worth the heat. In almost all cases except for the C-ER ML, I would chose IS weapons over Clan ones. LRMs are better, ACs are better, ER LLs are better, you can use the much cooler PPCs vs ER PPCs, LPLs actually do a full pulse worth of damage in less than 1/2 the time Clan versions do. Even with the higher weights and larger sizes, most of my IS mechs run cooler than my Clan mechs. I figured out that for a given level of firepower, 18 DHS on an IS mech provides roughly the same cooling at 22 DHS on a Clan mech.

[Tezcatli]

Viktor Drake, on 27 October 2014 - 06:13 PM, said:

No, it isn't worth the heat. In almost all cases except for the C-ER ML, I would chose IS weapons over Clan ones. LRMs are better, ACs are better, ER LLs are better, you can use the much cooler PPCs vs ER PPCs, LPLs actually do a full pulse worth of damage in less than 1/2 the time Clan versions do. Even with the higher weights and larger sizes, most of my IS mechs run cooler than my Clan mechs. I figured out that for a given level of firepower, 18 DHS on an IS mech provides roughly the same cooling at 22 DHS on a Clan mech.

My Trebuchet would love to have some half weight LRM :3

[Brody319]

Tezcatli, on 27 October 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

My Trebuchet would love to have some half weight LRM :3

The Trebuchet needs a lot more than half-weight LRMs

[LordKnightFandragon]

Yeah, I can see the cost of clan mechs being just fine now....after reading through this forum and realizing the IS and their stock form....

Clans are fine right out hte box....

IS..they are painful right out of the box......1.5mill for DHS...that alone is killer....

[Walluh]

They're higher because you're basically potentially buying all three variants with one purchase, due to the omnipod system. And all clan mechs come upgraded immediately. Endosteel, ferro, doubleheatsinks, XLs (yeah, good luck buying these enmasse)

IS, you have to buy multiple variants to use highly varying builds, and you have to upgrade them, which is..2.5mil just for DHS and Endo? Add in another 4-5mil for that pretty XL.